After watching X1 and X2 again recently.....

[Octoberist]

THe off screen death was probably what Kinberg and Penn could only do. The issue that I have with it was the lack of signicance of his 'supposed' death with the other characters. I want to know how Logan reacted. Storm. Xavier. I'm getting the vibe that they (Screenwriters) missed the boat on that. Kinberg claimed to be a big fan of Cyclops. Okay, you kill him off, but it has to mean something to someone in the movie. So boo to you Kinberg and Penn.

Cyclops could return, along with Xavier if it's done right. But it's the matter how Cyclops would be treated when he 'gets back'. Because if no cared in X3, why would they care in X4? It cannot feel like a 'copout' for his role in X3.

But let's say there's an X4 and there's no Cyclops. I don't know. I'll welcome in Gambit anyday, mind you, but Cyclops never got his fair share at all. The Xavier secret scene in X3 gives me hope of the return of Cyclops, but I don't trust Fox at all. With Fox and the filmmakers involved, they gave me hope for Gambit and a bigger role for Cyclops in X3. I didn't get that. Should I be fooled again for X4?

 

[Abaddon]

who would it have been so bad to at least threaten Marsden with a recasting.

 

[stryfe]

creativity or immersion.......... what are you talking about
he took a comic book, and made it so it was beleivable and so people could relate to it...... if that isn't creative I don't know what is then

Last time I checked people were still relating to the "far fetched" comic books. Yeah there different bla blah blah.

Long story short to much was altered for "realism" lowering Xmen to another run of the mill action flick. There decent but could have been great.

Also, my creative remark was in regards to Bryans choice of dialogue,plot and overall vision of the film. IMO it was weak and generic, only working because the actors(most anyway) were above average.

 

[The Batman]

To tell you the truth, Shadow, i agree. i dont think most here have actually read much of the claremont stuff from the 70's and 80's. Thats why they dont understand why some of us are pissed, thats why they run around screaming its only an adaption.

 

[Kurosawa]

To tell you the truth, Shadow, i agree. i dont think most here have actually read much of the claremont stuff from the 70's and 80's. Thats why they dont understand why some of us are pissed, thats why they run around screaming its only an adaption.

I know they didn't for X1 or X2. To be honest, that's the only thing that worries me about Superman Returns-Singer says he's never read a Superman comic.

 

[X-Maniac]

To tell you the truth, Shadow, i agree. i dont think most here have actually read much of the claremont stuff from the 70's and 80's. Thats why they dont understand why some of us are pissed, thats why they run around screaming its only an adaption.

Well that's a load of crap for a start. I've been reading X-Men for 31 years.
I'd say that's probably more than almost anyone else on this forum.

Yet I am still sensible enough to see that adaptation happens, and that external factors like commercial pressure, studio politics and actor availability play a part. I know this personally as well. I work in a creative medium in which changes have to be made, sometimes heart-breaking changes. I've been ordered to alter things in my job, and manuscripts in a creative sideline beyond my job, just to suit the view of someone who is in charge.

You evidently know very little of the pressures on creativity. It doesn't exist in some sort of unrestrained void where it can do whatever it likes.

Please break through the dream barrier and enter the real world.

And tell me if you've been reading X-Men comics since 1975.

 

[pdrumans]

Well I have been reading comics for that long and X-Men for almost that long. The best I can say is that the Character are LOOSELY adapted, except for Wolverine. The movie character personalities are not that close except for Wolverine, but then again they focused on him.
My feeling is that even with an adaption, they could have stayed truer to the source personalities. In the Spider Man Movies, he comes across with the same personality found in the books.

That said, I like movies for what they are even though different from the books.

 

[The Batman]

I havent been reading X Comics since 75', but i've taken the time out to read the history, instead of watching the cartoons and thinking thats all there is to X-Men. Frankly, you guys let them get away with too much. Now, you're excusing them when they change the esscence of the entire story.

Frankly, Ratner, Penn and Kinberg are lapdogs. You can telll they didnt fight anything. Richard Donner had to fight to make STM what it was. The Producers wanted some stupid camp crap. But Donner fought to make STM true to Superman, and guess what? the movie's now a classic.

Now, Cyclops would be downplayed again for Wolverine, but you know what? Singer would have made it more faithful to the comics. He would've fought for his vision. As much as I criticize singer for what he's done to cyclops, you can be damn sure he wouldnt rob him of his place in the DP saga.

 

[X-Maniac]

I havent been reading X Comics since 75', but i've taken the time out to read the history, instead of watching the cartoons and thinking thats all there is to X-Men. Frankly, you guys let them get away with too much. Now, you're excusing them when they change the esscence of the entire story.

Frankly, Ratner, Penn and Kinberg are lapdogs. You can telll they didnt fight anything. Richard Donner had to fight to make STM what it was. The Producers wanted some stupid camp crap. But Donner fought to make STM true to Superman, and guess what? the movie's now a classic.

Now, Cyclops would be downplayed again for Wolverine, but you know what? Singer would have made it more faithful to the comics. He would've fought for his vision. As much as I criticize singer for what he's done to cyclops, you can be damn sure he wouldnt rob him of his place in the DP saga.

If Singer was doing X3, Marsden would be there as well (probably), so we probably wouldn't see Cyclops' death. Probably. But we don't know.

Singer did change lots of things though. Rogue became an insecure teenager. Bobby became a young student without the comicbook personality. Storm was much milder and softer. At the time those movies came out, and even still today, there are complaints about the treatment of characters in the first two movies. Singer killed off Sabretooth and Deathstrike, two classic characters that tie into Wolverine's past.

I think it's a big leap to call Ratner, Kinberg and Penn lapdogs and say they didn't fight for anything. For a start, they said they fought many ideas put forward by Vaughn when he was on board. Don't be so harsh unless you have the evidence.

 

[blind_fury]

I havent been reading X Comics since 75', but i've taken the time out to read the history, instead of watching the cartoons and thinking thats all there is to X-Men. Frankly, you guys let them get away with too much. Now, you're excusing them when they change the esscence of the entire story.

Frankly, Ratner, Penn and Kinberg are lapdogs. You can telll they didnt fight anything. Richard Donner had to fight to make STM what it was. The Producers wanted some stupid camp crap. But Donner fought to make STM true to Superman, and guess what? the movie's now a classic.

Now, Cyclops would be downplayed again for Wolverine, but you know what? Singer would have made it more faithful to the comics. He would've fought for his vision. As much as I criticize singer for what he's done to cyclops, you can be damn sure he wouldnt rob him of his place in the DP saga.

You're forgetting something. Donner was a huge fan of Supes, Singer never really liked the X-men.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I havent been reading X Comics since 75', but i've taken the time out to read the history, instead of watching the cartoons and thinking thats all there is to X-Men. Frankly, you guys let them get away with too much. Now, you're excusing them when they change the esscence of the entire story.

Frankly, Ratner, Penn and Kinberg are lapdogs. You can telll they didnt fight anything. Richard Donner had to fight to make STM what it was. The Producers wanted some stupid camp crap. But Donner fought to make STM true to Superman, and guess what? the movie's now a classic.

Now, Cyclops would be downplayed again for Wolverine, but you know what? Singer would have made it more faithful to the comics. He would've fought for his vision. As much as I criticize singer for what he's done to cyclops, you can be damn sure he wouldnt rob him of his place in the DP saga.

Agree about 90%... as I don't feel that Singer's adaptation was as "inaccurate" as a lot of people make it out to be.

 

[The Batman]

You're forgetting something. Donner was a huge fan of Supes, Singer never really liked the X-men.

My point about Donner was that, when you love the character you're adapting, you fight to keep what makes the character great on screen. From indications, kinberg, penn, and ratner did not do that. Because they're yes men.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

If Singer was there, Marsden would be too (probably), so we probably wouldn't see Cyclops' death. Probably. But we don't know.

Singer did change lots of things though. Rogue became an insecure teenager. Bobby became a young student without the comicbook personality. Storm was much milder and softer. At the time those movies came out, and even still today, there are complaints about the treatment of characters in the first two movies. Singer killed off Sabretooth and Deathstrike, two classic characters that tie into Wolverine's past.

Rogue has been an insecure teenager in the comics.

What happened to her in the movies is very much like her origins in the comic book; she kisses her boyfriend, puts him into a coma, and runs away. She's insecure and scared of her powers, and doesn't become more confident until she joins the X-Men (as seen at least in X2, and even a bit at the end of X-Men, yet seems to be ignored in this one), and even then she is still very insecure.

The only inaccuracies about her are that they didn't explore her post-Ms. Marvel days, and she didn't start off with the Brotherhood. But what has been there has been far from inaccurate.

The way she deals with Iceman in their movie relationship is very similar to the way that she deals with Gambit in their relationship in the comics and cartoons.

I will agree with you on terms of Iceman and Storm, those characters were never really accuratley adapted. Under this creative team, Storm's portrayal seems to be being rectified.

Which is the complaint I have with Singer's potential X-Men 3, because he has stated his disinterest in the character, and how he never really wanted her to begin with, and how in X-Men 3, she likely would have been just a cameo or maybe even totally absent. To me, that's just as bad as killing off Cyclops in this movie.

As far as Sabretooth, Lady Deathstrike, and the other villians go... these are movies, and we're getting 3 movies tops for this universe (I'm gonna take Fox's word that this is the last one... but the point here isn't to debate whether there will be more or not)... you don't have enough time to bring back older villians and expand upon them. You have to keep moving forward. The reason why keeping Magneto (and even Mystique) around for so long, is because with Magneto, he's more than just a villian. He's the obvious antagonist, yes, but Magneto is an essential character in this world that has been created. It is through his eyes that we actually see the intolerance and hatred towards the mutant minority in these movies. If Magneto weren't in the franchise past X-Men, these movies might not have the strong depth of opression, prejudice, and isolation that they do now, because we'd likely have other characters, with other motives. And these movies wouldn't really be a 3 part story, telling a story bigger than each individual movie, but rather just random adventures of the X-Men.

In order to have these lesser villians (in movie terms, not comic terms, as Sabretooth especially, but Lady Deathstrike as well, are hardly lesser villians in the source material) not come back in later installments, and be able to have the movies move on (and as such, introduce newer characters, like Lady Deathstrike in X2, and Juggernaut in X-Men 3, on top of the other characters we've seen as antagonists), you have to give a reason for why these characters didn't make it. So we see Sabretooth blasted out of the Statue of Liberty, and crash through a boat, and Toad get struck by lightning and fly off into the harbor / bay. And Lady Deathstrike, we see pumped full of adamantium.

 

[chaseter]

After watching X1 and X2...I am sad that Singer left but lets give Ratner a shot. It is Singer's fault for leaving our beloved franchise so quit blaming Ratner, Kinberg, Penn, etc...It is not Ratner's fault that he was the 3rd director in line and came in late into production. It was ultimately Singer's decision to leave and not make X3. Fox is a huge corporation and would deffinately not wait for Singer another year or two to make X3. All 3 of these movies are 3 years apart and would be nonsense for X3 to be in 2007 or 2008 just so Singer could be director. If you are looking for someone to blame for your hates or fears surrounding this movie, blame Singer, blame Vaughn, blame studio politics, or blame Marsden for following Singer. Ratner shot what he was given script wise and should not be the center of blame for all these fanboy rants.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

After watching X1 and X2...I am sad that Singer left but lets give Ratner a shot. It is Singer's fault for leaving our beloved franchise so quit blaming Ratner, Kinberg, Penn, etc...It is not Ratner's fault that he was the 3rd director in line and came in late into production. It was ultimately Singer's decision to leave and not make X3. Fox is a huge corporation and would deffinately not wait for Singer another year or two to make X3. All 3 of these movies are 3 years apart and would be nonsense for X3 to be in 2007 or 2008 just so Singer could be director. If you are looking for someone to blame for your hates or fears surrounding this movie, blame Singer, blame Vaughn, blame studio politics, or blame Marsden for following Singer. Ratner shot what he was given script wise and should not be the center of blame for all these fanboy rants.

I agree that Ratner shouldn't be judged so harshly, so early.

But in essence, it's actually FOX's fault that Singer isn't on board this. They waited too long to lock him up.

Although he did want to do other stuff between X2 and X-Men 3, and that kind of sucked.

Point is, with all the bad we're getting with X-Men: The Last Stand, we're getting a lot of good, as well. In fact, I think the movie STILL has potential to be the best one yet.

And Singer wouldn't have been without his bad. Most notably, Storm wouldn't have been present at all, likely, or in a cameo, background role. Granted, this is still more Cyclops' story (Phoenix Saga) than Storm's, but it's still just as ****ed up to brush over Storm with no respect as it is to brush over Cyclops with no respect.

At least here, despite the fact we're losing one character one way or another, at least here, we're getting one improved (Storm).

I really like the idea of the cure. It's been foreshadowed since X-Men, and in X2 as well, and I think it's a good progression to have a cure. We probably wouldn't have gotten that with Singer.

Beast and Angel look amazing, even if Angel does have as small a role as I've been hearing. But Beast looks amazing.

And no way in hell would we have gotten this kind of action from Singer. I love his movies to death, they are amazing adaptations of the X-Men to me, done near perfectly, but the action was a bit limited. In terms of action, this one seems to be going above and beyond the norm. I like that.

All in all, I'm sure that Singer would have given us an amazing X-Men 3, but I think we're getting one as it is. As bad as the Cyclops situation is, we likely would have had just as bad a situation with Storm, so it's not really that much better of a situation.

 

[chaseter]

I love what we have gotten so far from X3 and have no complaints. Every fanboy has to give a little to gain. Cyclops fans are mad, Gambit fans are mad, Storm fans are happy, Jean fans are happy, etc...The point being, everything that I have seen from this movie yet far has been great. I love the cure and Phoenix plot line. These movies have mirrored the Civil Rights movement and adding a cure plot fits perfectly. Personally I am happy Singer left but I am sick and tired of all the constant complaining going on against Ratner and some other things. Sorry Cyclops dies, sorry there is no Phoenix flame, sorry no Trask/Sentinel involvement, but get over it...your rants on here won't change anything. I am a HUGE Gambit fan but you do not see me on here 24/7 wishing for Ratner's death because he didn't put in my favorite character. Other characters need to be brought in to revitalize these movies(Beast, Angel, Kitty, etc...) and that sadly means less screen time for other characters that we have already seen...except for the media ****e Wolverine(whom I do love)!

 

[Spider-Fan]

What makes you guys think Singer's X3 would be amazing. He showed no respect for Cyclops, so what makes you think he wouldn't have brushed him aside, because he basically did that in X1 and X2. What the execs at Fox are doing to Cyclops is wrong, but I was prepared for it after the respect Singer gave him. I enjoyed Singer's X-movies, but call a spade a spade folks. Cyclops and Storm would be cast aways in another Singer flick, just like before.

 

[chaseter]

What makes you guys think Singer's X3 would be amazing. He showed no respect for Cyclops, so what makes you think he wouldn't have brushed him aside, because he basically did that in X1 and X2. What the execs at Fox are doing to Cyclops is wrong, but I was prepared for it after the respect Singer gave him. I enjoyed Singer's X-movies, but call a spade a spade folks. Cyclops and Storm would be cast aways in another Singer flick, just like before.

Agreed...they were both background characters in X1 and X2 and why people think he would of changed that I have no idea.

 

[BMM]

Haha. Oh God, I don't think I'm going to get into this debate too much. Nothing good can come of this.

Blah, we'll never know what Singer's X3/X4 (or simply his X3) would have been like. It's all speculation. No, I don't think it would have been too similar to what we have now. Would it be better? In my opinion, probably . . . but that ship sailed a long time ago, and this is what we're getting.

The only things I would debate are these claims of shoving Cyclops into the background of X-Men and X2. Cyclops was no more of a background character in X-Men than anybody else, and I don't think his not having a huge role in X2 would hurt the ability of his character to be even more fleshed out in future films. Nightcrawler wasn't even present in the first film and he grew to become one of the most beloved characters within the span of one movie, X2--the same goes for Beast in X3 (reportedly). A character doesn't have to have a large role in a previous film, in order to determine whether or not he would have an effective role in later movies, or whether or not the audience would in fact like him.

In so far as the Storm being a background character--you're kidding. Her stance may have been muffled, but she was hardly a background character, and would hardly have been one in anyone's version of X3 (including Singer's), if the producers had anything to say about it (which they obviously do).

It has been stated by the producers (notably Donner) that Storm, Halle Berry, would have to be back for an X3, that they couldn't picture it without her, and that they would have only written a bigger role for her. Storm was always wanted back and producers planned on her being back.


"I can't imagine doing it without him or Patrick [Stewart] or any of the main cast...and Halle [Berry]. We have to make sure that she's used well and we have a great great storyline for her, or maybe we do a Storm movie...who knows."

Source: http://www.darkhorizons.com/news03/031216e.php

"She also is encouraged by the fact that despite originally saying she was "X'd" out, Halle Berry is reconsidering resuming her role as Storm." (and this was only in November of '03, long before Catwoman took a bite out of Berry)

Source: http://www.superherohype.com/x-men/index.php?id=396

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Bryan most likely would have done something with Scott, since he has stated time and again he thought he was a great character and favored Marsden. Likely it probably would have been a huge Wolverine movie too, not to say that the real DP is without its Wolverine. It [probably] would have been the love story of Scott and Jean, while Logan got all the hack and slash action the audience could handle. Scott probably would have led the team much like in X1, probably would have had the emotional scenes between him and Jean and then possibly some sort of fight between him and the main villian or whatever. Cyclops role in Singer's X3 likely would have been about the size Storm or Jean had in X2. People act like Singer marginalized Scott somehow, which has to be the dumbest thing I ever heard. The first movie his character was probably only second the Wolverine in terms of X-Men, and maybe larger than Xavier. He had great scenes in that movie, and they actually revealled he was more than just some uptight jerk. Even in X2, despite the somewhat unwarrented openning scene with Wolverine, he had a fair amount of screentime considering in the graphic novel he had even less. And again Singer gave him a great moment on the X-Jet which was quiet deserving of his character.

Furthermore I don't know exactly what role you want Cyclops to have had in Singer's X-franchise. Did you want him to have a ton of lines: guess what? It would be incredibly out of character for Scott to be talking all the time. He DOESN'T DO THAT. He talks to very certain people (Jean, Xavier, Warren and Beast in the comics) and the rest don't get to see anything past a stuck up exterior. He is and will always be a hard guy to get to know, especially for someone like Wolverine, Bobby, Mr Lorrio, or anyone else for that matter. The fact that Scott's most revealled and longest lines were between him and Xavier and him and Jean in X1 and X2 is actually quiet in character for him. In fact it's exactly how you expect Cyclops to act. The fact that Jean chooses him over Wolverine and the audience is befuddled is probably more or less a correct response, because no one else but Jean known what goes on underneath Cyclops big head of his. The lines in the turbine room, in museum, the medic bay in the X-Mansion with Xavier, this silent brooding Marsden does so frequently, that is Scott Summers.

 

[RagingTempest]

Bryan and his writers have done great job with both X-men movies. But come on, he should have finished the trilogy off. But of course, he loves Superman and forgot about X3. In stead of complaining about what Brett and the writers have done to the franchise, lets think about what Bryan and his writers have done. They downplayed and weakened Storm, they shafted Cyclops first, they made Iceman too serious, they made Rogue useless, they killed off characters without any explanation, and not to mention made Wolverine the center of attention for 2 movies. Brett did a pretty good job of fixing some those things (Storm especially). Maybe Bryan’s X3 would have been better than Brett’s X3. All I know is Bryan can’t direct action because they made Wolverine do all the fighting while the rest of team did pretty much nothing but get their asses kicked most of the time. Finally in X3, we get to see mostly all the characters fight and fight as a team like they are suppose too. But Brett doesn’t do well with character development, since a lot of characters, especially Rogue, should have had more to do in the plot. Just think if Bryan with his character development and Brett with his amazing fight scenes directed this movie together!!! It would have been the best comic book movie to date!!

 

[Angamb]

I think Bryan, the writers and Fox were the responsables of Cyclops role size, that's for sure, totally, like it was Logan role size too. They have opted for Wolverine like the "Star" of this franchise, and that was one of the biggest mistakes from them. apart of the budgets matter.

 

[X.M.D.]

Dont worry guys...who knows if X4 presents a mutant with reality-changing powers, like Franklin Richards, and maybe he could brings Cykes, Xavier and Jean (or at least on of em) back to life?

Sometimes Hollywood is a Pandora's Box.

 

[WalkingDead]

I agree that Ratner shouldn't be judged so harshly, so early.

But in essence, it's actually FOX's fault that Singer isn't on board this. They waited too long to lock him up.

Although he did want to do other stuff between X2 and X-Men 3, and that kind of sucked.

Point is, with all the bad we're getting with X-Men: The Last Stand, we're getting a lot of good, as well. In fact, I think the movie STILL has potential to be the best one yet.

And Singer wouldn't have been without his bad. Most notably, Storm wouldn't have been present at all, likely, or in a cameo, background role. Granted, this is still more Cyclops' story (Phoenix Saga) than Storm's, but it's still just as ****ed up to brush over Storm with no respect as it is to brush over Cyclops with no respect.

At least here, despite the fact we're losing one character one way or another, at least here, we're getting one improved (Storm).

I really like the idea of the cure. It's been foreshadowed since X-Men, and in X2 as well, and I think it's a good progression to have a cure. We probably wouldn't have gotten that with Singer.

Beast and Angel look amazing, even if Angel does have as small a role as I've been hearing. But Beast looks amazing.

And no way in hell would we have gotten this kind of action from Singer. I love his movies to death, they are amazing adaptations of the X-Men to me, done near perfectly, but the action was a bit limited. In terms of action, this one seems to be going above and beyond the norm. I like that.

All in all, I'm sure that Singer would have given us an amazing X-Men 3, but I think we're getting one as it is. As bad as the Cyclops situation is, we likely would have had just as bad a situation with Storm, so it's not really that much better of a situation.

I agree 100% here. Like I said earlier...it would jsut be a different give and take.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Oh yeah Singer's X-men movies always have poorly executed thrid acts.

When Magneto tried to turn people into mutants in X1 it came off as dumb and silly. And when Jean died in X2 it felt forced and anti-climatic. Compare that to the Star Wars Original Trilogy. Every movie has an awesome climax. That's the difference between a forgettable movies and classics.

The Jean death at X2 feeling forced and anti-climatic? Dude, that was one of the most emotional and tense moments in the film.