Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion - LEVEL 11 - Part 9

[Panacea]

Ward back as an LMD? Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe he wouldn't know he's an LMD but will think he's the real Ward.

 

[DawnWarrior]

But the real question is, will the LMD Ward be a good guy like Framework Ward? Or would he be an Evil Hydra guy like OG Ward?

 

[Dark Raven]

If he's a good guy from the framework, everything in the real world won't seem real to him.

Can they risk having any LMDs running around anymore though after AIDA? He might try a similar thing to her, so they might be seen as dangerous and outlawed.

 

[samsnee]

I admit I gave up on this show around the Inhuman storyline. I just found the focus on Skye and the Inhuman haven too boring. Also was never a fan of Bobbi. But it's really found its groove the back half of this season.

 

[just one thing]

If they do season 5, please no more hydra and leave ward dead.

Frame work ward may have a good death, the actor had two last year.

 

[Reaver027]

After the end of season 3 i was ready to say goodbye to this show after season 4. I was sure it would get canned. Now i am hoping there will be more. This switch to three story arcs per season has made the show so much better. Less filler and a bigger focus on the main characters. Everything feels tighter and just plain better.
If they can keep this up i would not mind a couple more years with this show.

 

[Endeavor]

Man, when Fits comes out of this framework, he is going to be a wreck.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well I don't think Jemma is going to want to be around him anymore.

But as I said in the episode thread, what if everyone came back to the real world with their framework personalities intact? Or if these are now the default memories which have overwritten the real ones? Since Fitz was raised by his father rather than his mother, what if he comes back to the real world as a colder and crueler Fitz whom Jemma can't be around?

Will this show just leave things that there are no repercussions from the Framework, or is it going to impact the rest of the show going forward? It certainly would be a way to do a mini reboot of the show where people are slightly different to what they were in previous seasons.

 

[Marvolo]

Man, when Fits comes out of this framework, he is going to be a wreck.

Probably right. Tho hopefully the show wont waste too much time with a mopey guilt ridden Fitz. He is in a glorified virtual reality videogame. Him doing horrible **** to fake Framework people isnt much different from any video gamers killing NPCs in GTA or Assassin's Creed or Uncharted or any other video game. Killing real people is about the only thing that should boher him, but even that is a result of Aida's tampering with his brain and memories. Everything he did in the Framework was Aida's fault. She made Framework Fitz. Real Fitz is innocent in all this.

 

[Dark Raven]

But Fitz didn't just shoot a fake framework person. He shot what was left of the real Agnes and therefore killed whatever was left of her in the real world. So if there ever were a way of restoring her again, that is now lost because of Fitz because he murdered her in cold blood.

 

[Marvolo]

But Fitz didn't just shoot a fake framework person. He shot what was left of the real Agnes and therefore killed whatever was left of her in the real world. So if there ever were a way of restoring her again, that is now lost because of Fitz because he murdered her in cold blood.

She was computer code at that point, and in that situation because Aida and Radcliffe put her into the Framework and murdered the real her. And it was Framework Fitz, a creation of Aida, that killed the Framework Agnes so he still shouldnt feel responsible. Without Aida and Radcliffe's messing with Fitz's brain, without Aida and Radcliffe doing any of the **** theyve done Agnes would still be in her own body and alive. At least until she died of natural causes. Fitz and everyone in the Framework aside from Aida and Radcliffe are entirely inocent. No more than victims of a heinous crime committed by a psychopathic android and a very very irresponsible man.

 

[Chemistro]

Probably right. Tho hopefully the show wont waste too much time with a mopey guilt ridden Fitz. He is in a glorified virtual reality videogame. Him doing horrible **** to fake Framework people isnt much different from any video gamers killing NPCs in GTA or Assassin's Creed or Uncharted or any other video game. Killing real people is about the only thing that should boher him, but even that is a result of Aida's tampering with his brain and memories. Everything he did in the Framework was Aida's fault. She made Framework Fitz. Real Fitz is innocent in all this.

I agree "Real" Fitz should (very probably; details about the changes would help) not feel guilty when he's back because that was Framework Fitz, I don't think the real victims vs. framework victims distinction is relevant from the perspective of moral blameworthiness, for the following reasons:

1. People who play video games know that they're playing video games. Framework Fitz does not, and has no reason to believe he is.
If someone is placed in a framework but their memories are not altered, and they shoot and kill a framework person without good reason, they're as guilty as if they had shot and killed a real person outside the framework, even granting for the sake of the argument that framework people are not real - because the killer does not have any information telling him that.
In fact, I would say that Framework Fitz, if he's making his own choices, is also guilty of murder, torture, etc.; but that would not make "real-world" Fitz guilty.

2. It's at least unclear that framework people aren't people. I would further say they very probably are people. Jemma seems to have begun realizing that. Why would they not be real? They don't have human brains, sure. But a human brain is not required for consciousness or self-awareness. It's very probable that Aida is self-aware - given behavior -, but she has a computer for a brain, so why not framework people?
One could argue they're not real because there isn't enough computing power, but given their human-like behavior, it seems to me there is, at least for some of them (even if the rest of the framework is filled with non-persons due to insufficient computing power, framework Agnes or framework Radcliffe have full range of human behavior; probably the same goes for framework Mack's kid, framework's Ward, and all of those interacting daily and very closely with people, since they have to behave like people to pass for people; that might or might not extend to the whole framework).
I guess we can't be certain that human-like behavior requires self-awareness in the Marvel universe, but it seems very probable (at least, in absence of evidence to the contrary).

3. You're implying that Aida and Radcliffe are guilty. I do agree, but Aida does not have a human brain, and neither does Radcliffe after Aida killed him outside the framework.

 

[Endeavor]

Well I don't think Jemma is going to want to be around him anymore.

But as I said in the episode thread, what if everyone came back to the real world with their framework personalities intact? Or if these are now the default memories which have overwritten the real ones?

Yikes. If they do that it would sure be a long mess to unravel. It would take more than one more season I think.

 

[Endeavor]

Probably right. Tho hopefully the show wont waste too much time with a mopey guilt ridden Fitz. He is in a glorified virtual reality videogame. Him doing horrible **** to fake Framework people isnt much different from any video gamers killing NPCs in GTA or Assassin's Creed or Uncharted or any other video game. Killing real people is about the only thing that should boher him, but even that is a result of Aida's tampering with his brain and memories. Everything he did in the Framework was Aida's fault. She made Framework Fitz. Real Fitz is innocent in all this.

Yeah, but remember he already felt responsible for both AIDA and the framework, since Radclife built on his work to create both.

So either way, Fitz is going to feel responsible, and I can't say I would disagree with him. He kind of is, in the same way Tony is responsible for what Ultron did.

 

[Dark Raven]

I agree "Real" Fitz should (very probably; details about the changes would help) not feel guilty when he's back because that was Framework Fitz, I don't think the real victims vs. framework victims distinction is relevant from the perspective of moral blameworthiness, for the following reasons:

1. People who play video games know that they're playing video games. Framework Fitz does not, and has no reason to believe he is.
If someone is placed in a framework but their memories are not altered, and they shoot and kill a framework person without good reason, they're as guilty as if they had shot and killed a real person outside the framework, even granting for the sake of the argument that framework people are not real - because the killer does not have any information telling him that.
In fact, I would say that Framework Fitz, if he's making his own choices, is also guilty of murder, torture, etc.; but that would not make "real-world" Fitz guilty.

2. It's at least unclear that framework people aren't people. I would further say they very probably are people. Jemma seems to have begun realizing that. Why would they not be real? They don't have human brains, sure. But a human brain is not required for consciousness or self-awareness. It's very probable that Aida is self-aware - given behavior -, but she has a computer for a brain, so why not framework people?
One could argue they're not real because there isn't enough computing power, but given their human-like behavior, it seems to me there is, at least for some of them (even if the rest of the framework is filled with non-persons due to insufficient computing power, framework Agnes or framework Radcliffe have full range of human behavior; probably the same goes for framework Mack's kid, framework's Ward, and all of those interacting daily and very closely with people, since they have to behave like people to pass for people; that might or might not extend to the whole framework).
I guess we can't be certain that human-like behavior requires self-awareness in the Marvel universe, but it seems very probable (at least, in absence of evidence to the contrary).

3. You're implying that Aida and Radcliffe are guilty. I do agree, but Aida does not have a human brain, and neither does Radcliffe after Aida killed him outside the framework.

I agree. I think the Framework storyline is going to raise many questions of what constitutes personhood, which would be a good subject to tackle. In Star Trek: The Next Generation, they grappled with this topic when Data was on trial ("The Measure of Man") and Picard had to argue on his behalf that he was a person, even though he was not human.

Similar issues were also raised about the holographic doctor (EMH) in Star Trek Voyager.

So I'm guessing Jemma is probably going to end up revising her view of personhood by the end of the arc and not simply dismissing them or any of the situations as not mattering. And I can see that Grant Ward might be the one to get her to wrestle with these issues.

Yikes. If they do that it would sure be a long mess to unravel. It would take more than one more season I think.

Isn't that the sort of thing a Joss Whedon production would've done though, rather than sweeping it all under the carpet and all the characters not having to face any long-term consequences after something like this?

 

[Endeavor]

Isn't that the sort of thing a Joss Whedon production would've done though, rather than sweeping it all under the carpet and all the characters not having to face any long-term consequences after something like this?

Yes, very Whedonesque, true.

 

[Vartha]

Ward back as an LMD? Wouldn't surprise me.

or even TRIPP back as an LMD.

 

[Dark Raven]

Yes, very Whedonesque, true.

Also, it would follow the precedent set by other big game changes within the series, such as the fall of SHIELD as a result of CA: TWS, where the series was affected long after.

It would certainly keep things fresh in the series with such a shake up, and it would provide a very plausible way to break up Fitz and Simmons (if they wanted to do that) instead of for just the usual soapish romantic reasons.

Putting Ward back onto the team too, as good Ward who is aware of his other self's past, would also be a rather Whedonesque thing to do. It would be like having Angel or Spike on the team. They would have a deep distrust of him, but couldn't completely hold it against him, especially if this Ward is actually heroic and isn't the same Ward who has done these attrocious acts.

 

[TheRedWraith]

I've got to admit, I was surprised by how emotional I got when I saw Tripp for the first time.

 

[TheRedWraith]

I'd love to have LMD Ward in the Real World.

 

[legendkillin]

I've got to admit, I was surprised by how emotional I got when I saw Tripp for the first time.

I didn't expect Tripp to be back such a great surprise.

 

[tamron]

I've got to admit, I was surprised by how emotional I got when I saw Tripp for the first time.

I had to pause the episode and do a happy dance.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Besides hearing rumors of him appearing again, it was also spoiled by the actor's name being credited near the start of the episode, unfortunately.

 

[Vartha]

I hope this Writers strike doesn't effect the rest of the season