BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion - - - - - Part 132

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After reading about black Adam , I think its quite fitting that the rock is going to be physically more imposing than henry/superman. The guy is basically superman with magic too. So would shazam be stronger than supes too? Think black Adam would be a good foe for the jl.
 
Well... It's more that his level of power is equal to Superman's though it is fueled by magical forces. It gets tricky because, frankly, Superman's vulnerability to magic has always been pretty murky and ill defined. As an example: There have been quite a few stories where Superman gets bitten/scratched by a werewolf or a vampire. Think about that for a moment... Why in Zod's name would that happen, exactly? In those same stories you might see people hiding behind a concrete or steel wall to get away from those monsters. Now, I think we are all in agreement that Superman, the being that can shatter titanium with his pinky and whom can fly through the surface of the sun and live, has a physical toughness, an "invulnerability", greater than a concrete, steel reinforced bunker. Yet in these stories said bunker would seem to be an adequate defense against a vampire or werewolf attack. So, you see the problem? Unless you say that werewolf/vampire claws and fangs can also cut through solid steel, then to my mind it makes no sense that they can affect Superman, or other similarly invulnerable super heroes at all. And wouldn't you know it, they almost never show these monsters slicing through those sort of barriers.

On the other hand, tell me something like the Shining Knight's sword or Wonder Woman's sword, magically created weapons with powerful enchantments about them, tell me that they can slice through Superman despite his normally invulnerable nature, because these are magical items that are capable of slicing through "anything"? I totally buy that.

So when it comes to SHAZAM and Adam I am just never convinced that they themselves are somehow more inclined to hurt him with their punches, ect. simply because they are powered by magic. Now, tell me that even Supes is vulnerable to the gambit Captain Marvel used in KINGDOM COME because of the great magical properties of the lightning that he calls down for the transformation? That seems legit to me.

Again though, I am sure others could come up with differing rationales but that's my view on it.
 
Yeah, that's a fair rationale for them not using that resource all the time. I also think there's would reasonably be a fair amount of political calculation too. I mean, we as a nation should understand by now the complicated nature of bringing our military into someplace beyond our borders, ostensibly to "do good" yet meeting a crap ton of resistance. I would say WW and AM would be aware of those types of issues.

Plus, I am sure there would be some internal politics they would both deal with as well. I mean, if you are the average Atlantean or Amazon, given history, you might not be too keen on spilling your people's blood in conflicts that to you would seem to be none of your business. "Why send our warriors to a fight not our own? We have the seas/the cloak of our island to buffer us. Who cares what happens to the humans? We got our own problems."

But... Done intelligently these could be interesting avenues to explore too. Cultural exchange, political intrigue... Ripe ground for everything from humor to high drama. As you said though lee... It's also a tricky thing to navigate from a writing point of view.

I almost keep forgetting at times that both Aquaman's and Wonder Woman's respective kingdoms are actually treated as foreign nations within the DC world, thus the rules that apply to our everyday foreign nations applying to them as well in terms of how the EU would look upon them and their involvement with Earthly affairs.
 
I almost keep forgetting at times that both Aquaman's and Wonder Woman's respective kingdoms are actually treated as foreign nations within the DC world, thus the rules that apply to our everyday foreign nations applying to them as well in terms of how the EU would look upon them and their involvement with Earthly affairs.

Precisely. And it's important to note that distinction between Paradise Isle and Atlantis and say, Thor's Asgard. Asgard is truly separate from the world of "mortals''. Atlantis and Themyscria may be separate, but they are a part of the DCCU Earth. I think, intelligently done, you could explore all sorts of interesting ideas with that as a base.

Totally cuckoo idea (in other words, not one I'd specifically want to see on screen but a sort of thought experiment I had):

I remember reading when Kevin Smith was writing Green Arrow that GA had a team up with Aquaman and AM was disrupting a drug operation by Black Manta. GA says something about how he doesn't even understand how "You can even snort this stuff (cocaine) under water?" It got me to thinking... Lets say that you start having contact with the Atlanteans, diplomacy, trade, the whole nine yards. What if the Atlanteans, people whose biology is different from normal baseline humans, find out that eating certain kinds of surface foods, foods rich in certain vitamins that they just don't have a lot of being that the Ocean bottom ecology is different from the surface, that these newly imported foods actually act in there systems like a highly addictive drug. An Atlantean drinks carrot juice or eats a carrot and they are high as a kite say. How does this affect things? Do they become the biggest importer of carrots in the world? Do they bring their riches of the deep, gold, precious minerals that no one else can get to, to the surface, just for another fix? Does Arthur allow them to consume these foods? Does he outlaw them? If so... Well we know what happens with prohibition on the surface world. Does Atlantis have to learn this as well?

Okay, forget about the goofy food as drug idea. What about something a little more concrete? We know that Atlantis, while still being advanced has different classes. They have Royals and elites, and a fair number of plebian types. The Atlanteans now have diplomatic relations with various important and powerful surface world nations. Some captain of industry type hears about the inherent abilities of the Atlanteans. Their strength, their ability to survive great depths, their knowledge of the Ocean floor... He thinks... "These people would be incredibly suited to either mining or oil rig operations." Sure, the Atlantean elites might balk, and there would be even poor Atlanteans that might not want to be part and parcel of the surface world's environmental degradation of the planet... But there would also reasonably be those that would say, "Screw it... I need to eat. I want to make money. Here's an opportunity. I'm taking it since I aint getting anywhere in Atlantis' society any time soon." What happens then? How does that affect the wider world? How does this cause conflict? Cause I could see many ways it could. How does easy, or at least easier to bring to market gold affect the world economy? Would there be the forces of other wealthy interests that would be against a businessman having such an edge? Could that stir them to illegal action that Aquaman would find himself working against, even though it would mean helping those who contribute to the forces of environmental damage?

I think the surface has barely been scratched when dealing with the notion of places like Atlantis or Gorilla City or Paradise Isle being real, known places in the world. There is great potential stories of all kind if writers care to put some thought into it.
 
Well... It's more that his level of power is equal to Superman's though it is fueled by magical forces. It gets tricky because, frankly, Superman's vulnerability to magic has always been pretty murky and ill defined. As an example: There have been quite a few stories where Superman gets bitten/scratched by a werewolf or a vampire. Think about that for a moment... Why in Zod's name would that happen, exactly? In those same stories you might see people hiding behind a concrete or steel wall to get away from those monsters. Now, I think we are all in agreement that Superman, the being that can shatter titanium with his pinky and whom can fly through the surface of the sun and live, has a physical toughness, an "invulnerability", greater than a concrete, steel reinforced bunker. Yet in these stories said bunker would seem to be an adequate defense against a vampire or werewolf attack. So, you see the problem? Unless you say that werewolf/vampire claws and fangs can also cut through solid steel, then to my mind it makes no sense that they can affect Superman, or other similarly invulnerable super heroes at all. And wouldn't you know it, they almost never show these monsters slicing through those sort of barriers.

On the other hand, tell me something like the Shining Knight's sword or Wonder Woman's sword, magically created weapons with powerful enchantments about them, tell me that they can slice through Superman despite his normally invulnerable nature, because these are magical items that are capable of slicing through "anything"? I totally buy that.

So when it comes to SHAZAM and Adam I am just never convinced that they themselves are somehow more inclined to hurt him with their punches, ect. simply because they are powered by magic. Now, tell me that even Supes is vulnerable to the gambit Captain Marvel used in KINGDOM COME because of the great magical properties of the lightning that he calls down for the transformation? That seems legit to me.

Again though, I am sure others could come up with differing rationales but that's my view on it.


I guess my take on it would be that any Supernatural character, including Superheroes can inflict pain on Superman. I would consider vampires/werewolves as Supernatural beings so maybe that's why they can hurt Superman. Superman himself has his own source of power, although not magic, but the Sun......Sun dipped Superman is pretty much invincible. Recalling that DC Universe trailer where he spent ages in front of the sun and when he fought Black Adam after, Adam's punches didn't even effect him.

Comic Book rationale is interesting.:woot:
 
I guess my take on it would be that any Supernatural character, including Superheroes can inflict pain on Superman. I would consider vampires/werewolves as Supernatural beings so maybe that's why they can hurt Superman. Superman himself has his own source of power, although not magic, but the Sun......Sun dipped Superman is pretty much invincible. Recalling that DC Universe trailer where he spent ages in front of the sun and when he fought Black Adam after, Adam's punches didn't even effect him.

Comic Book rationale is interesting.:woot:

Ah... but see I still think what I pointed out stands. Why would a vampire be capable of piercing Superman's invulnerable skin if they can't pierce something that in fact is less hard than his skin? You see the problem inherent in that? Again, it's something that is less about a specific idea that is uniformly applied and more an a la carte, pick and choose for each story that writers have been doing for decades without putting anymore thought into it than, "Is it magic? Well, I guess he's vulnerable to it." As another for instance... They did a story where JLA villain Prometheus attacks Supergirl with a "magic" bullet. In fact he tells her it's a magic bullet before firing. It of course rips through Supergirl. See... I think that's just piss poor reasoning. Why? Well... "Faster than a ect., ect." We have a super human with reflexes greater than any human could ever have. She's warned of the danger of the bullet. Okay, I buy that it's an enchanted bullet that COULD harm Kara... But once told of that she could simply do something that we know Sun powered Kryptonians can do... Catch it. That's it. Palm it right out of the air just like she or Superman would do any normal bullet. Unless it's a Kryptonite bullet, that should well be within their abilities to do. Or, she could just, ya know, move at speeds greater than the bullet and dodge it, since she's been warned it could harm her. Does that happen? No. It's written that like an idiot Kara allows herself to be shot. Unless told of something inherent in the enchantment on the bullet or that it's magical properties somehow make such actions impossible, it just seems a poor way to hamstring a character like Kara simply because she's "too powerful" to find a rational/logical way to work around for story purposes. You'll excuse my harping on this. It's something that sticks in my craw and so I've done a lot of thinking about it.
 
After reading about black Adam , I think its quite fitting that the rock is going to be physically more imposing than henry/superman. The guy is basically superman with magic too. So would shazam be stronger than supes too? Think black Adam would be a good foe for the jl.

Neither BA or Shazam are more powerful than Superman. Their magical powers make them pretty close to Supes power level, but his ''high end'' feats of power are much more impressive. Actually, if we're considering DC's continuity since 2011 (the New 52) they aren't even that close; Wonder Woman seems much tougher than BAand/or Shazam, and she's second to Superman.
 
Ah... but see I still think what I pointed out stands. Why would a vampire be capable of piercing Superman's invulnerable skin if they can't pierce something that in fact is less hard than his skin? You see the problem inherent in that?

Here's the deal. His skin is only invulnerable due to the Earth's atmosphere and the Sun's radiation. His skin is not inherently invulnerable. And even when it's irradiated it's kinda vulnerable to Kryptonian weapons. I see it as something that counteracts the solar radiation. Like Kryptonite does. The magic is a kind of anti-sun radiation in itself. So the teeth and claws of an enchanted creature are just like the weapons of WW and Aquaman. They have properties that negate his invulnerability.
 
Someone on twitter congratulated Zack on his birthday, is it legit? Is today really Zack's birthday? I wish he gave us a gift
 
Will the characters of Holly Hunter, Callan Mulvey, Tao Okamoto, Jena Malone and Scoot McNairy be revealed?

It's dragging a bit too long and a reveal will give me some relief.
 
Will the characters of Holly Hunter, Callan Mulvey, Tao Okamoto, Jena Malone and Scoot McNairy be revealed?

It's dragging a bit too long and a reveal will give me some relief.

Hunter= senator

Tao= Mercy Graves

Malone= Barbara Gordon or Carrie Kelly

Scoot= Metallo or some other character



There I've shortened it down for you. :funny:
 
Well... It's more that his level of power is equal to Superman's though it is fueled by magical forces. It gets tricky because, frankly, Superman's vulnerability to magic has always been pretty murky and ill defined. As an example: There have been quite a few stories where Superman gets bitten/scratched by a werewolf or a vampire. Think about that for a moment... Why in Zod's name would that happen, exactly? In those same stories you might see people hiding behind a concrete or steel wall to get away from those monsters. Now, I think we are all in agreement that Superman, the being that can shatter titanium with his pinky and whom can fly through the surface of the sun and live, has a physical toughness, an "invulnerability", greater than a concrete, steel reinforced bunker. Yet in these stories said bunker would seem to be an adequate defense against a vampire or werewolf attack. So, you see the problem? Unless you say that werewolf/vampire claws and fangs can also cut through solid steel, then to my mind it makes no sense that they can affect Superman, or other similarly invulnerable super heroes at all. And wouldn't you know it, they almost never show these monsters slicing through those sort of barriers.

On the other hand, tell me something like the Shining Knight's sword or Wonder Woman's sword, magically created weapons with powerful enchantments about them, tell me that they can slice through Superman despite his normally invulnerable nature, because these are magical items that are capable of slicing through "anything"? I totally buy that.

So when it comes to SHAZAM and Adam I am just never convinced that they themselves are somehow more inclined to hurt him with their punches, ect. simply because they are powered by magic. Now, tell me that even Supes is vulnerable to the gambit Captain Marvel used in KINGDOM COME because of the great magical properties of the lightning that he calls down for the transformation? That seems legit to me.

Again though, I am sure others could come up with differing rationales but that's my view on it.

Invulnerability: His body is nigh-invulnerable due to his superhumanly dense cellular and anatomical structure as well as his radiating bio-electrical aura. Superman is under some circumstances resistant or immune to different forms and levels of lacerations, blunt force trauma, energy-based assaults, falls from great heights, explosions, the cold void of space, toxins and all known diseases on Earth. His supercharged bio-electric "aura" acts as an invisible "force field" radiating within a few millimeters from his skin. He can willfully utilize his aura strengthening it's power to a greater degree to provide an additional defense against certain levels of physical and energy attacks for a considerably short period of time, but doing so can endanger him should the attempted feat prove inefficient for any reason. Superman utilizes his aura by expanding it around a person(s) or object(s) to enable their structural stability when lifting or traveling with them. Superman's invulnerability has been in constant flux over the years. He has been shown surviving the blast of nuclear warheads, entering the Earth's sun and emerging unharmed and surviving the impact of an exploding sun.

Vulnerability to Magic: Superman's biomatrix is his most powerful asset, but the strength of this field is also its greatest weakness. Its permeability to certain wavelengths makes him vulnerable to certain radiations, particularly magical energies whose chaotic electromagnetic or extra dimensional signatures disrupt this force field. Superman's vulnerability to magic varies depending upon the special effects of the magic. No magic seems to be able to directly destroy him unless it comes from a semi-divine or divine source. He can be injured and worn down by magical entities. Magic can have powerful and unpredictable effects on Superman and his magical enemies have often proven to be the most dangerous.
 
Re: WW and AM's armies

I've always felt that prejudice
towards humans was a good rationale for why neither army gets called much.

But I think not leaving their lands unprotected is the best excuse. AM for example has to worry about Ocean Master staging a coup.

Also, if you write Diana like the JL cartoon, you could easily explain WW not having access to the Amazon army because she's been banned from her homeland.
 
Happy Birthday Zack if so! Have a good day and then get to work!
 
Oh, then I won't spoil it to you.

But I meant "emotionally devastated", as some pretty heavy **** happens. And characters are written very well, so you really get to care about them.

It was great game. I definitely recommend it. Actually, it was the only first-person view game I can recall playing in the last decade or so, as I'm not really a fan of those, but the storyline was great and I simply had to play it. First-person shooting aspect was something I considered having to put up with and it was worth it in the end.

Sounds good. Got the Rapture Edition with Bioshock 1 and 2 a couple months ago. I haven't gotten too far into Bioshock mostly because when I play 360, I usually play late and the last thing I wanna play before bed is Bioshock.

Now that I'm on spring break, I'm gonna be playing it and finishing it.

I hear Infinite is really really good so I'm looking forward to it.
 
Precisely. And it's important to note that distinction between Paradise Isle and Atlantis and say, Thor's Asgard. Asgard is truly separate from the world of "mortals''. Atlantis and Themyscria may be separate, but they are a part of the DCCU Earth. I think, intelligently done, you could explore all sorts of interesting ideas with that as a base.

Totally cuckoo idea (in other words, not one I'd specifically want to see on screen but a sort of thought experiment I had):

I remember reading when Kevin Smith was writing Green Arrow that GA had a team up with Aquaman and AM was disrupting a drug operation by Black Manta. GA says something about how he doesn't even understand how "You can even snort this stuff (cocaine) under water?" It got me to thinking... Lets say that you start having contact with the Atlanteans, diplomacy, trade, the whole nine yards. What if the Atlanteans, people whose biology is different from normal baseline humans, find out that eating certain kinds of surface foods, foods rich in certain vitamins that they just don't have a lot of being that the Ocean bottom ecology is different from the surface, that these newly imported foods actually act in there systems like a highly addictive drug. An Atlantean drinks carrot juice or eats a carrot and they are high as a kite say. How does this affect things? Do they become the biggest importer of carrots in the world? Do they bring their riches of the deep, gold, precious minerals that no one else can get to, to the surface, just for another fix? Does Arthur allow them to consume these foods? Does he outlaw them? If so... Well we know what happens with prohibition on the surface world. Does Atlantis have to learn this as well?

Okay, forget about the goofy food as drug idea. What about something a little more concrete? We know that Atlantis, while still being advanced has different classes. They have Royals and elites, and a fair number of plebian types. The Atlanteans now have diplomatic relations with various important and powerful surface world nations. Some captain of industry type hears about the inherent abilities of the Atlanteans. Their strength, their ability to survive great depths, their knowledge of the Ocean floor... He thinks... "These people would be incredibly suited to either mining or oil rig operations." Sure, the Atlantean elites might balk, and there would be even poor Atlanteans that might not want to be part and parcel of the surface world's environmental degradation of the planet... But there would also reasonably be those that would say, "Screw it... I need to eat. I want to make money. Here's an opportunity. I'm taking it since I aint getting anywhere in Atlantis' society any time soon." What happens then? How does that affect the wider world? How does this cause conflict? Cause I could see many ways it could. How does easy, or at least easier to bring to market gold affect the world economy? Would there be the forces of other wealthy interests that would be against a businessman having such an edge? Could that stir them to illegal action that Aquaman would find himself working against, even though it would mean helping those who contribute to the forces of environmental damage?

I think the surface has barely been scratched when dealing with the notion of places like Atlantis or Gorilla City or Paradise Isle being real, known places in the world. There is great potential stories of all kind if writers care to put some thought into it.

I think this is EXACTLY the way to approach an Aquaman film.
 
Happy birthday, Zack Snyder. Please make a good movie.
 
Even though Goyer is not writing the script, he is still credited for the story.

Since I loved Man of Steel, I don't know what is the problem people have, the script or the story?

I had few problems with the story cuz it had loopholes.. that I am willing to overlook.

So if the story was the problem, we have to hope Goyer learned from Man of Steel.
If it was the script, we may get something different (Terrio) and hopefully it is better.
 
Even though Goyer is not writing the script, he is still credited for the story.

Since I loved Man of Steel, I don't know what is the problem people have, the script or the story?

I had few problems with the story cuz it had loopholes.. that I am willing to overlook.

So if the story was the problem, we have to hope Goyer learned from Man of Steel.
If it was the script, we may get something different (Terrio) and hopefully it is better.

Story, tone, style and themes.
 
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