Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect?

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by MAKAVELI25, Nov 6, 2012.

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  1. Mindreaper21

    Mindreaper21 It's Harvest Time

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    Yes, Bruce was under the assumption that once Gotham didn't need Batman that he and Rachel could be together, because she told him that. So Bruce went out looking for someone to take his place so that it could happen. This became his motivation. Then, The Joker just so happen to get in the way of his plan and cleverly twisted Bruce's life. When Bruce was put in a situation where he had to save either Harvey or Rachel, he chose her. When He realized that Harvey was in the room with the bomb, you could tell that Bruce didn't really want to save him, but he wasn't going to just let him die. After Rachel died, he felt responsible for Harvey for two reasons. Harvey was going to take his place to save the city as well as because he knew that Rachel cared for Harvey. Then Harvey died and he felt that he failed Rachel as well as Gotham. In TDKR, Bruce's motive to be Batman once again had changed. Though you could clearly tell he was still in pain after losing her and he still searched for a successor. I agree that the entire film wasn't about getting over Rachel and, just as you said, it was a big part of the film. Rachel, even after her death, was a huge part of the entire trilogy and it wasn't until it was near the end that he finally started to get over her.
     
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  2. Mindreaper21

    Mindreaper21 It's Harvest Time

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    I'll put this simply. I know that Bruce's mission never changed. I agree with your post. Though, Rachel was still a part of it all from beginning to end.
     
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  3. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Bruce's motivation was giving Gotham City a hero with a face that wouldn't be as corruptible as Bruce is. It had nothing to do with Rachel.
     
    #78
  4. Mindreaper21

    Mindreaper21 It's Harvest Time

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    So, when Bruce found that hero and he told Rachel that he found a way for them to be together, it had nothing to do with her?


    Anyway, we should get back on topic.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  5. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    It's two coinciding goals. Nothing wrong with that.
     
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  6. Brother Jack

    Brother Jack Believer

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    It was about him having a normal life. Rachel was just the gateway that eventually proved to only be illusory. I think there's enough evidence in the films to suggest that if Rachel had lived and Harvey died her relationship with Bruce still would not have worked. Bruce was too wrapped in Batman and his issues even if he didn't realize it. Rachel wasn't his soul mate, that would be Selina Kyle.
     
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  7. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Just because the main goal was intersected with Rachel's speech on wanting to be with Bruce when he's no longer Batman doesn't mean Bruce was trying to give Gotham City a more "suitable" hero just because he wanted to be with Rachel. You're only simplifying things with the idea that Bruce tried to do everything he could to be with Rachel when it was only intersected with the arc of Bruce wanting to find someone "better".
     
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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  8. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    No, you are not the only one that feels this way. I am an avid fan of the Nolan films and of Batman in general. I loved The Dark Knight. It is my favorite comic book movie to date and is in my opinion one of the greatest movies ever made period (in the top 10, if not, then definitely in the top 20 and in the top 5 movies of the 2000's). I loved Batman Begins as well. It is in my opinion the best superhero origin movie to date as well as one of the best movies ever made (somewhere in the top 50) and in my top 5 favorite comic book movies to date.

    On the other hand, I absolutely hated TDKR. It was a mess from start to finish and it shocks me that it was directed by Christopher Nolan. I can write a whole essay on the stupidity behind this movie. In fact, I can write multiple essays. However, I've been arguing and discussing the movie for months now and at this point, I'm sick and tired of repeating myself over and over again.

    In a nutshell, TDKR fails for the following reasons:

    1. As a stand-alone movie in general, it fails because a lot of scenes contradict other scenes in the movie, there are many plot holes, and a lot of the character motivations make no sense and are underdeveloped.

    2. As a sequel to BB and TDK, it fails because it ignores/contradicts many themes, plot points, ideas, character arcs and development that were established in the first two movies. It ignores and contradicts many things from both movies but it specifically contradicts TDK - almost everything in it. I would almost go as far as to say that you shouldn't watch TDKR at all if you watched TDK and loved it and you don't want it ruined for you.

    3. As a Batman movie, it fails because many characters do not act like how they're supposed to. Bruce/Batman himself is horribly out of character throughout the movie and a lot of the main messages in the movie are very anti-Batman.

    Basically, TDKR is to BB and TDK what The Phantom Menace was to the original SW trilogy but to a much lesser extent (as in TDKR doesn't bastardize BB and TDK as much as TPM bastardized the original film trilogy and Star Wars in general).

    Since I don't feel like repeating myself over and over again like I did for the whole past summer, I'll leave you off with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbtxrM5TBAc

    It is a podcast a couple of friends of mine did discussing all the issues with the movie and expanding on the basic flaws the movie has that I already mentioned above. I wasn't in the video but we discussed a lot of the stuff they brought up in the podcast before they started recording so they basically speak for me.

    Also check out this review:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS65Xv6jqlA
    It is a commentary on the movie. The guy analyzes the movie piece by piece starting with the opening scene up until the ending and exposes all the problems it has and more specifically, all the problems each individual part has. Great commentary IMO.

    Feel free to let me know what you think. And although I said I'm sick of listing the flaws the movie has, I am willing to discuss the movie if anyone addresses any specific point my friends talked about in their vid (or any point the guy in the commentary talked about).
     
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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  9. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    The last sentence is also very, very true. Rachel Dawes, if anything, was just a crush, but it's Selina Kyle that is the true love Bruce had been seeking. Selina Kyle understands all that Bruce has gone through.
     
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  10. rickfox

    rickfox Devil

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    gladly you are the minority
     
    #85
  11. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    And I could write multiple essays for the counterpoint. We have one thing in common though, the arguments are tiring and repeating oneself gets old.

    Make no mistake, the arguments run in circles and can go on forever. I don't see either side convincing the other any time soon.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 8, 2012
  12. Deserana

    Deserana 2005/2008/2012

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    I do not remember this film having any inconsistancies with the others.... character/theme-wise that is nor does it ever contradict itself. Maybe it did and I can't remember but nothing sticks out.

    I have problems with TDKR but the good still massively outweighs the bad for me.
     
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  13. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    I thought you were going to say the one thing you two have in common is that you two can both write multiple essays :funny:

    The only inconsistencies with any character, I think, would be Alfred, but even that is sorta overreaching it a bit.
     
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  14. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough.

    Agreed. That's probably why I feel it's pointless by now to further continue the arguments and feel like I don't have a lot of energy for them anymore (at least for the big serious ones). TDKR is a very controversial film within the Bat fanbase now that I think about it.

    If you're interested, I recommend you watch the podcast I linked. My friends addressed a lot of the inconsistencies and contradictions. The commentary I linked also addresses a good chunk of those.
     
    #89
  15. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Everything Under the Sun

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    One of the worst parts about TDKR is the underdeveloped relationship between Bruce and Selina (but also Bruce and Miranda as well). It works fine for most of it, and I could buy that after more time they would fall in love and maybe even end up together. But as it stands it doesn't make sense to me that Bruce and Selina live happily ever after in Italy together.
     
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  16. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    No question about that. I don't think anyone would disagree with you there. That's why I think that although Selina was a better match for Bruce, I think in this trilogy he had a deeper emotional attachment to Rachel. She had a greater effect on him than any other female love interest I've seen in a superhero movie.

    You've made some excellent points, so has the videos you've posted. Some of which I share myself. It's gratifying to know there are more like minded people who share their view so concisely and well.

    Though unlike yourself I still enjoy TDKR, and I think it does manage to break the superhero threequel curse. I just feel it's a big step down from it's two predecessors.

    I'm 50/50 on the good and bad. There's enough greatness in it to make me enjoy it overall and want to buy it and own it, and generally deem it a good movie.

    I am hoping when I get it at the end of the month a re-viewing of it will improve my opinion on it. It's happening for people in The Amazing Spider-Man forum. Their opinions on TASM have improved dramatically since purchasing it.

    Sometimes another viewing of a movie can change your perspective. It's happened to me before. We'll see.
     
    #91
  17. JackWhite

    JackWhite Third Man

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    I'm actually really interested to see how much more or less I will like the film when the Blu-Ray drops. I recently watched Inception on TV a week and a half ago, and barely got through it. I don't hate it, but it's definitely my least favorite Nolan film.
     
    #92
  18. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    Agreed. This is the sensible way to go. We as fans need to acknowledge that each side has their reasons. Then again, people still bicker about Batman Returns. And I believe it was Pfieffer-Fan who pointed out after TDKR came out that this was Nolan's Batman Returns. Now, I'm agreeing. It's an entirely different animal from Batman Returns, but it does seem to be controversial in a lot of the choices made.

    I'm hoping this does happen for you Joker, cause I respect your opinion and I know we'll probably never see 100% eye to eye on the film but I'm hoping that you and others who were highly disappointed will at least be able to make your peace with it and appreciate the good that's there rather than getting too tripped up on the negatives. I feel it's something I've had to do with all the Nolan films, because I'm such a fan and have such specific expectations for Batman. In truth, none of the movies were what I thought they'd be before I saw them. But I can honestly say that for each of them I got something that I eventually felt was better than the movie I had in my head going in.

    With TDKR I saw it 4 times, three times in the first two weeks of release, then a fourth a month later. My experience went something like:

    First time: IMAX. Like/loved it/was confused by a few things/overwhelmed/was just sad that it was all over plus the Aurora shooting made the movie seem inconsequential. Had a nagging sense that I didn't like it as much as I wanted to though.

    (Went back and re-watched Batman Begins at some point in between)

    Second time: IMAX. Really loved it this time, a bunch of my lingering questions felt answered either by little things I hadn't noticed in the film or being content with the room left by the film for interpretation. Really dug the connections back to Begins.

    Third time: Regular screen. Still liked it a lot, but was focusing a bit more on the negative things (mainly trying to determine if Bane's plan made enough sense for me). Plus was just worn out from the film...it's long and bleak and that third Act is exhausting. Felt a bit burnt out on it.

    Fourth time: IMAX. Really just put all thoughts aside, I knew this was gonna be my last theatrical viewing. Just tried to watch it again with as blank a slate as possible. Really enjoyed it, just let it wash over me and soaked it all in. Felt just as moved by all the key parts that stood out to me on first viewing, and was still picking up more nice little details. The ending really got to me. I felt content.

    Though the one thing that always strikes me with TDKR is that I just don't want it to end. Both BB and TDK end with shots where you're like, "Yeah...THIS is the money shot right here". They leave you on this notion of "Batman is awesome, get pumped up". With Blake rising on the platform, it's not that I don't think it's a fitting image to land on, it's just that I never feel ready for it to end. Maybe it's just the knowledge that there will be no more Nolan Bat-films. It's extremely bittersweet for me.
     
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  19. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I'm surprised though that someone actually watched the one-hour long video. lol

    I share the exact opposite opinion. The first time I saw TDKR in theatres, I thought it was a good movie on its own even though I still held the opinion that it wasn't a good Batman movie or a good sequel. I went to see it a second time hoping my opinion would change but I turned out disliking it even more the second time.

    The thing about TDKR is that it addresses a lot of great ideas and themes in each individual scene but the whole movie falls apart when you put those scenes together and when you take them in the context of the film. An easy example would be the scene where Batman first returns and the senior cop in the police car tells the rookie cop "We're in for a show tonight, kid." At first, a fan's reaction to that scene would be something among the lines of "OMG This is a great scene! They took that great scene from Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns and adapted it in this movie! Good job Nolan!" But when you sit down and think about it, that scene makes no sense in the context of the film. In TDK Returns, everyone knew Batman served as Gotham's hero for years so when that senior cop sees his return, it makes sense that he would slow down the car, get relieved, and tells his rookie partner he is in for a show. In TDK Rises, every cop other than Gordon thinks Batman is a murderer and not a hero so it makes no sense at all for that cop to have the same reaction as the cop in TDK Returns thus that specific moment of the scene falls apart. This is just a small easy example. There are many more examples throughout the film including more major ones.

    One good thing I have to say about TDKR is that it is the closest we got to seeing Batman's detective and strategy skills from the comics in a movie. It is also the closest we got to seeing a Goddamn Batman in live-action and what I mean by that is that we almost got a Batman that can do almost anything possible simply because "He's the Goddamn Batman". Too bad that the "Goddamn" aspects of Batman in this movie were very poorly executed (at least in my opinion).

    Also, there is another problem that I have with the movie from an adaptation point of view that wasn't brought up in the videos I linked (or at least I don't remember them being brought up). You do not try to make the Batman character in your movie like the retired Batman in The Dark Knight Returns if your movie is a sequel to 2 movies that were all about Batman in his early career as a crimefighter still trying to fully figure out how to operate. It just doesn't make much sense to me.

    It's a really darn shame the movie turned out the way it turned out IMO. It had SO much potential with the concepts they used (Bane, Knightfall elements, No Man's Land elements, etc.).
     
    #94
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  20. BatLobsterRises

    BatLobsterRises Lobsterized

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    Hey, that's actually a new criticism on my ears, so points for novelty there. Also, points for expressing your opinion in a civil way. I will say though, I didn't see anything wrong with the cop's reaction. We're made to believe that things have been quiet in Gotham. So it's like...woah, watch out kid, sh** is goin' down! Doesn't matter if he's a murderer or not really, he's still Batman and he's still a caped vigilante who does outrageous things with insane technology and has successfully evaded the police in the past. And he's clearly going after the bad guy. The thing is, Gotham was told Batman was a murderer but that doesn't mean they ever really understood it. Blake questions it.

    I hear where you're coming from and I understand you were using a small thing to make a larger point, but I just don't see how that scene falls apart at all. Made sense to me.
     
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  21. Doc Samson

    Doc Samson Superhero Psychiatrist

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    I think TDK trilogy is, without question, the gold standard for superhero film trilogies right now.

    That being said, I do think TDKR stands out from the trilogy in a number of ways, most of them negatively in comparison to the other films, at least to me. Had it been a bit better, I would say this trilogy could've challenged those of other genres as one of the best of all time.

    It doesn't quite reach that far, but we have to remember we're comparing Nolan to himself with this question, and not his contemporaries. I venture to guess that most filmmakers could do far worse than TDKR...
     
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  22. TheBat812

    TheBat812 Well-Known Member

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    I think, also, the point of that cop is that there are some who actually doubt that the batman killed Dent.
     
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  23. Alex Logan

    Alex Logan Yes, Mr. Smith.

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    I don't see what you're seeing here. Where are you getting this idea from? The only cop that thought Batman was a murderer is Foley. I never got that feeling from anyone but him, the rest just seemed to be following orders.
     
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  24. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

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    Selina Kyle has been the only worthwhile love interest or female character in the entire trilogy, imo. Yes, I wish they would have added more into that relationship but I felt that I did see at least enough that would tell me Selina and Bruce would become a couple in Italy.
     
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  25. Alex Logan

    Alex Logan Yes, Mr. Smith.

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    Indeed. Heck, I fell in love with Selina after the very first scene. I would have moved to Italy with her too. :cwink:
     
    #100
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