The Dark Knight Rises Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect?

[MAKAVELI25]

Does for me.

Yeah, agreed, that didn't bother me too much. The movie had much bigger problems than needless exposition

 

[BatLobster]

I've come to enjoy the odd bit of Nolan exposition. Maybe it's just cause my brain associates it with awesome movies

 

[JackWhite]

I didn't really find TDKR to be too exposition heavy. But then again, after re-watching Inception recently; I found the exposition a little grating and now I like it less, lol. Should be interesting to see how I feel about TDKR once it is released on Blu-Ray next month.

 

[Anno_Domini]

The only exposition that WAS too much was Batman asking where Talia was. Bruce had already seen Miranda earlier that day but then asked Gordon where Talia was. Felt like it really just pushed the idea of where the final battle was going to take place, but it didn't feel necessary. It made sense within the script's context but after the scene placement were messed with and what not, they could've cut that short dialogue out.

 

[batfreakforever]

Yeah, agreed, that didn't bother me too much. The movie had much bigger problems than needless exposition

It has no problems. The problems that you have for the film are your problems and not the film itself.

 

[Brain Damage]

It has no problems. The problems that you have for the film are your problems and not the film itself.

 

[batfreakforever]

Did I hit a nerve!

 

[Shikamaru]

^^^^^^
I second that.

 

[I Am The Knight]

It has no problems. The problems that you have for the film are your problems and not the film itself.

 

[Shikamaru]

Personally, I'm not sure if TDKR has too much exposition or not. I personally think that it has a simple thin paper plot and manages to cover it up with its extremely detailed complex dialogue and big words. The plot is a lot more simple than people seem to think it is (at least I would argue that it is). Meanwhile, many illogical plot holes and character motivations are not explained at all and are underdeveloped.


People were also talking about Talia and Bane a few posts ago. Some of those posts were directly addressed to me (I was reading them once in a while through my phone) but I didn't have time this past weekend to sat down and address each post. So I'll address everything in a nutshell.

For those saying the football scene was just Bane bluffing, the problem with that is the reveal that Bane is just Talia's muscle. From that point on, you literally know nothing about Bane. You don't know his origin, his motivations, his intentions, and all of that. You have no idea from that point on what certain things said in the movie by him were him telling the truth and what certain things were him just bluffing. Talia completely destroyed Bane as a character IMO.

Speaking of Talia, I do agree with everyone that says she was forced into the movie. However, the biggest problem with Talia are her motivations and the fact that she clearly doesn't understand what the LOS and her father believed in. Her motivation is "I hated my father until you killed him". I'm still trying to comprehend the logic behind that motivation. If anyone here can enlighten me a bit, that would be greatly appreciated. I address the flaws of Talia's motivations in the paragraph below.

Speaking of Talia and Bane's motivations, which some people talked about, if you think about it, Talia and Bane don't even understand the motivations/reasons of Ra's al Ghul and the LOS. First, the LOS would have no reason to destroy Gotham now that it has been cleaned up to the point where the mayor has to replace Gordon because he's not needed anymore, as someone here already said. If the LOS knew about the Dent cover-up, then maybe that would've made sense. However, as previous posts have already said, Bane/Talia didn't find out about the cover-up until they got to Gotham. Second, Bane/Talia (and presumably the LOS as well, since Bane and Talia kept saying they were part of) were going to destroy themselves with Gotham and they both even talked about how they were going to fulfill Ra's al Ghul's "destiny". The problem right there is that destroying Gotham was not the destiny of Ra's al Ghul. Gotham was just the next city Ra's al Ghul was targeting and once he destroyed it, the LOS would've moved on to another city. Ra's was never going to destroy himself with the city at any point as Talia & Bane were planning (or at least Talia, since she was in charge of the whole thing). So not only does Talia have an illogical motivation but she also doesn't even understand her father's goals and the purpose of the LOS.


Also, if you think about it, the LOS themselves never appear in the movie. Look at the LOS in Batman Begins. Do any of Bane's mercenaries look like that, act like that, dress like that, or do anything like that? It doesn't seem that way to me. All you get in the movie is Talia and Bane say that they are the League of Shadows but the League itself never appears.


It also bothers me Bane never had the Venom drug or something similar. I really don't buy that it wouldn't have worked with Nolan's realism. I think it totally would've worked. The Venom drug doesn't exactly make you flip cars and tanks like the Hulk, at least not in Knightfall which is Bane at his prime in the comics. If you could get away with Scarecrow's fear gas, the water vaporizing machine, and a man walking around with burns a man in real life would die for, then I don't see why you can't get away with something similar to the Venom drug. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the Venom drug. You could've made it simple steroids or something similar to a steroid. There is even a scene in the film where Bane makes a hole through solid brick and I have yet to see a person complain about that. In fact, I have yet to see a majority of viewers in general (not just comic book fans) have a problem with half the illogical things in the movie, such as how he heals from his back injury, the leg brace, etc. I just really don't see how the Venom drug couldn't have worked.


Someone also said that the problems the people on this page seem to have with TDKR is the liberties it takes from the comics and that we should look at the movie for what it is - a movie. However, I already addressed in this thread why I believe TDKR to be bad no matter in what way you look at it.

1. As a stand-alone movie in general, it fails because a lot of scenes contradict other scenes in the movie, there are many plot holes, and a lot of the character motivations make no sense and are underdeveloped.

2. As a sequel to BB and TDK, it fails because it ignores/contradicts many themes, plot points, ideas, character arcs and development that were established in the first two movies. It ignores and contradicts many things from both movies but it specifically contradicts TDK - almost everything in it. I would almost go as far as to say that you shouldn't watch TDKR at all if you watched TDK and loved it and you don't want it ruined for you.

3. As a Batman movie, it fails because many characters do not act like how they're supposed to. Bruce/Batman himself is horribly out of character throughout the movie and a lot of the main messages in the movie are very anti-Batman.

Whether you look at it as a Batman adaptation, sequel to BB and TDK, or stand-alone movie, it's not that good to begin with and has many problems IMO. Though if I were to rank them in order from what it is bad as the most to least, I would rank them like this:
1) As a sequel to BB and TDK
2) As a Batman adaptation
3) As a stand-alone movie

 

[Shikamaru]

For the people new to this thread, I would like to share this with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbtxrM5TBAc

It is a podcast a couple of friends of mine did discussing all the issues with the movie and expanding on the basic flaws the movie has that I already mentioned above. I wasn't in the video but we discussed a lot of the stuff they brought up in the podcast before they started recording so they basically speak for me.

Also check out this review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS65Xv6jqlA
It is a commentary on the movie. The guy analyzes the movie piece by piece starting with the opening scene up until the ending and exposes all the problems it has and more specifically, all the problems each individual part has. Great commentary IMO.

Feel free to let me know what you think.

 

[Anno_Domini]

It has no problems. The problems that you have for the film are your problems and not the film itself.

Realize that people have differing opinions and may not even like TDKR before you say something where you get banned.

I love TDKR myself and my favorite film of the trilogy, but I'm not dense enough to realize that others do have problems with the film. I may not even agree with many of their points, but you can't say 'The film has no problems, you have the problems!'.

 

[JackWhite]

Realize that people have differing opinions and may not even like TDKR before you say something where you get banned.

I love TDKR myself and my favorite film of the trilogy, but I'm not dense enough to realize that others do have problems with the film. I may not even agree with many of their points, but you can't say 'The film has no problems, you have the problems!'.

Hey Anno, what exactly makes TDKR your favorite in the trilogy? I'm not trolling you or anything, just curious, because it seems like each film became increasingly better in your opinion; by looking at the way you scored each film.

 

[BatLobster]

For the people new to this thread, I would like to share this with you.



Feel free to let me know what you think.

Yeah, I listened to the second one when you first posted it. Wasn't too impressed with that guy. Most of the arguments are ones I've responded to on here in the past, so it's hard to comment on them without getting overly redundant.

A couple of new ones that stood out to me though:

He goes off on a whole tangent about why Bane's "precious armory" line is such a bad line. Supposedly because Bruce has been out of action and those weren't technically Tumblers he had been actively using. Now, I agree, it's a comic-booky line. But I don't get how that's such a bad line. The implication is obviously that it's Wayne's company's property, and it's all tucked away in secret- therefore it's essentially his if he wants it. The idea is that Wayne Enterprises is Batman's armory, which is true. Bane is exploiting Bruce's main superpower- his wealth and resources.

The other thing was his failure to understand the stadium scene. As I said a few pages back, Bane plays the "anonymous trigger man" card as a way of complicating the entire situation both for Gotham and the outside world. If Bane said, "I have the trigger and will blow Gotham to hell if anyone tries to stop my revolution!"...well, that puts a target squarely on Bane's head. You can rest assured that the government would have smuggled in Navy Seal snipers to take him and any of his highest ranking men out, and secure the detonator. The mere possibility that there's an anonymous, radicalized Gothamite ready to hit the trigger throws a monkey wrench into that course of action. It's impossible to attack that. And it's also his way of showing Gotham that he's "for the people". Trying to get Gotham to believe that one of their own is committed to his cause is his first bit of propaganda. As Bane says (lies), they're liberators, not conquerors. I thought it was all pretty brilliant to be honest. The Joker himself would have to marvel at such a devious scheme on that big a scale.

Also, his comment about how "no one cared who I was until I put on the mask" was a pointless line...that's a classic case of "this movie wasn't what I wanted it to be!". That "great superhero film" he was hoping for that dealt with what it means to be a superhero and the importance of masks? It's called Batman Begins. That line is an obvious callback to that, and it's establishing Bane as the anti-Bruce. "As Bruce Wayne I'm flesh and blood I can be ignored...". By film 3, we've already well established the importance of masks in this story. Even TDK carried this theme forward by having Joker apply his own "war paint". The guy in the video seemed frustrated that we didn't get to learn more about Bane's mask...but ultimately, what does it matter? You could see the adulation from Barsad when he says "They work for the mercernary...the masked man." The movie is saying that the mere fact that Bane wears a mask adds to his mystique and legend. Both Bruce's and Bane's masks represent an earlier trauma in their lives. Both masks are their ways of dealing with pain (Bruce emotional, Bane physical). But they both use it to inspire fear. And they also use it to protect people they care about, as Bruce instructs Blake later on in the film. In the case of Bane of course using the mask/his persona, by being the guy that has everyone's attention throughout the course of the film, he is able to protect Talia. The prologue manages to set up Bane as Bruce's evil doppleganger in a mere 6 minutes, while delivering a thrilling action set piece. Go figure!

The fact that Bane physically needs the mask to survive is very symbolic too, of course. Bane is unable to live without the mask. By the end of TDKR, Bruce finally is. So, the mask theme is clearly at play in the film. It just didn't pan out the way that guy was hoping/expecting.

 

[batfreakforever]

Realize that people have differing opinions and may not even like TDKR before you say something where you get banned.

I love TDKR myself and my favorite film of the trilogy, but I'm not dense enough to realize that others do have problems with the film. I may not even agree with many of their points, but you can't say 'The film has no problems, you have the problems!'.

Yes I can say that, and I have. I have always said in my posts that people have different views, goals or hopes ,standards and that is their choice. But think about what I said before you snap at me. "The problems lie with the viewer not the film itself". Which is true. If I think the movie is perfect that is my choice. Its the same if people think its bad, same again. Thats also like other subjects in life. You might think a women is perfect but you friends think her nose is too big or has a bad attitude or doesnt respect you etc but you think other wise.
Get it.

 

[batfreakforever]

some hate it. Love it. Like it alittle. Think its perfect. Get used to it. But i guess you cant reason with some fans and thats the fun. If we all agreed then it would be boring. I come here because i dont know any batfans in my life. I just cant rap my head around that fact that some fans would rather talk about the negatives than the positives. But here we are.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Hey Anno, what exactly makes TDKR your favorite in the trilogy? I'm not trolling you or anything, just curious, because it seems like each film became increasingly better in your opinion; by looking at the way you scored each film.

I just found each film becoming better and better. I understand how universally acclaimed TDK was, but I found the product of TDKR to be just as satisfying and as a brilliant ending to a trilogy. Plus, my favorite Batman villain, Bane, being used extraordinarily helped too

Yes I can say that, and I have. I have always said in my posts that people have different views, goals or hopes ,standards and that is their choice. But think about what I said before you snap at me. "The problems lie with the viewer not the film itself". Which is true. If I think the movie is perfect that is my choice. Its the same if people think its bad, same again. Thats also like other subjects in life. You might think a women is perfect but you friends think her nose is too big or has a bad attitude or doesnt respect you etc but you think other wise.
Get it.

Okay, well get this...have fun while you can, because you won't last with some ego around here.

 

[JackWhite]

I just found each film becoming better and better. I understand how universally acclaimed TDK was, but I found the product of TDKR to be just as satisfying and as a brilliant ending to a trilogy. Plus, my favorite Batman villain, Bane, being used extraordinarily helped too

Good stuff. I campaigned for Bane to be in TDKR a little after TDK, but figured it was a long shot for Nolan to actually use him as a villain. I was so shocked when it was released that Tom Hardy was going to be Bane. It was very satisfying to see the character done justice.

 

[BatLobster]

It was very satisfying to see the character done TRUUUEEE JUSSSSTICE!.

Fixed.

 

[Micromind]

Yeah, I listened to the second one when you first posted it. Wasn't too impressed with that guy. Most of the arguments are ones I've responded to on here in the past, so it's hard to comment on them without getting overly redundant.

A couple of new ones that stood out to me though:

He goes off on a whole tangent about why Bane's "precious armory" line is such a bad line. Supposedly because Bruce has been out of action and those weren't technically Tumblers he had been actively using. Now, I agree, it's a comic-booky line. But I don't get how that's such a bad line. The implication is obviously that it's Wayne's company's property, and it's all tucked away in secret- therefore it's essentially his if he wants it. The idea is that Wayne Enterprises is Batman's armory, which is true. Bane is exploiting Bruce's main superpower- his wealth and resources.

The other thing was his failure to understand the stadium scene. As I said a few pages back, Bane plays the "anonymous trigger man" card as a way of complicating the entire situation both for Gotham and the outside world. If Bane said, "I have the trigger and will blow Gotham to hell if anyone tries to stop my revolution!"...well, that puts a target squarely on Bane's head. You can rest assured that the government would have smuggled in Navy Seal snipers to take him and any of his highest ranking men out, and secure the detonator. The mere possibility that there's an anonymous, radicalized Gothamite ready to hit the trigger throws a monkey wrench into that course of action. It's impossible to attack that. And it's also his way of showing Gotham that he's "for the people". Trying to get Gotham to believe that one of their own is committed to his cause is his first bit of propaganda. As Bane says (lies), they're liberators, not conquerors. I thought it was all pretty brilliant to be honest. The Joker himself would have to marvel at such a devious scheme on that big a scale.

Also, his comment about how "no one cared who I was until I put on the mask" was a pointless line...that's a classic case of "this movie wasn't what I wanted it to be!". That "great superhero film" he was hoping for that dealt with what it means to be a superhero and the importance of masks? It's called Batman Begins. That line is an obvious callback to that, and it's establishing Bane as the anti-Bruce. "As Bruce Wayne I'm flesh and blood I can be ignored...". By film 3, we've already well established the importance of masks in this story. Even TDK carried this theme forward by having Joker apply his own "war paint". The guy in the video seemed frustrated that we didn't get to learn more about Bane's mask...but ultimately, what does it matter? You could see the adulation from Barsad when he says "They work for the mercernary...the masked man." The movie is saying that the mere fact that Bane wears a mask adds to his mystique and legend. Both Bruce's and Bane's masks represent an earlier trauma in their lives. Both masks are their ways of dealing with pain (Bruce emotional, Bane physical). But they both use it to inspire fear. And they also use it to protect people they care about, as Bruce instructs Blake later on in the film. In the case of Bane of course using the mask/his persona, by being the guy that has everyone's attention throughout the course of the film, he is able to protect Talia. The prologue manages to set up Bane as Bruce's evil doppleganger in a mere 6 minutes, while delivering a thrilling action set piece. Go figure!

The fact that Bane physically needs the mask to survive is very symbolic too, of course. Bane is unable to live without the mask. By the end of TDKR, Bruce finally is. So, the mask theme is clearly at play in the film. It just didn't pan out the way that guy was hoping/expecting.

Very much This.

This sum up perfectly why I Love this movie ! Well said.

This movie is full of parallels between Bane and Batman, mirror dialogue, scenes, and references BB, TDK and has social-political sub-text and many nods to Batman comics and brings trilogy full circle !

 

[BatLobster]

Also, if you think about it, the LOS themselves never appear in the movie. Look at the LOS in Batman Begins. Do any of Bane's mercenaries look like that, act like that, dress like that, or do anything like that?

http://screenmusings.org/BatmanBegins/pages/BB_0036.htm

 

[JackWhite]

Fixed.

 

[JackWhite]

http://screenmusings.org/BatmanBegins/pages/BB_0036.htm

Nice catch.

Bane/Talia's League were more extreme in their methods anyway.

 

[Brain Damage]

Speaking of Talia, I do agree with everyone that says she was forced into the movie. However, the biggest problem with Talia are her motivations and the fact that she clearly doesn't understand what the LOS and her father believed in. Her motivation is "I hated my father until you killed him". I'm still trying to comprehend the logic behind that motivation. If anyone here can enlighten me a bit, that would be greatly appreciated. I address the flaws of Talia's motivations in the paragraph below.

Speaking of Talia and Bane's motivations, which some people talked about, if you think about it, Talia and Bane don't even understand the motivations/reasons of Ra's al Ghul and the LOS. First, the LOS would have no reason to destroy Gotham now that it has been cleaned up to the point where the mayor has to replace Gordon because he's not needed anymore, as someone here already said. If the LOS knew about the Dent cover-up, then maybe that would've made sense. However, as previous posts have already said, Bane/Talia didn't find out about the cover-up until they got to Gotham. Second, Bane/Talia (and presumably the LOS as well, since Bane and Talia kept saying they were part of) were going to destroy themselves with Gotham and they both even talked about how they were going to fulfill Ra's al Ghul's "destiny". The problem right there is that destroying Gotham was not the destiny of Ra's al Ghul. Gotham was just the next city Ra's al Ghul was targeting and once he destroyed it, the LOS would've moved on to another city. Ra's was never going to destroy himself with the city at any point as Talia & Bane were planning (or at least Talia, since she was in charge of the whole thing). So not only does Talia have an illogical motivation but she also doesn't even understand her father's goals and the purpose of the LOS.

YES. Very well said.

He goes off on a whole tangent about why Bane's "precious armory" line is such a bad line. Supposedly because Bruce has been out of action and those weren't technically Tumblers he had been actively using. Now, I agree, it's a comic-booky line. But I don't get how that's such a bad line. The implication is obviously that it's Wayne's company's property, and it's all tucked away in secret- therefore it's essentially his if he wants it. The idea is that Wayne Enterprises is Batman's armory, which is true. Bane is exploiting Bruce's main superpower- his wealth and resources.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with this line whatsoever.

Also, his comment about how "no one cared who I was until I put on the mask" was a pointless line...that's a classic case of "this movie wasn't what I wanted it to be!". That "great superhero film" he was hoping for that dealt with what it means to be a superhero and the importance of masks? It's called Batman Begins. That line is an obvious callback to that, and it's establishing Bane as the anti-Bruce. "As Bruce Wayne I'm flesh and blood I can be ignored...". By film 3, we've already well established the importance of masks in this story. Even TDK carried this theme forward by having Joker apply his own "war paint". The guy in the video seemed frustrated that we didn't get to learn more about Bane's mask...but ultimately, what does it matter? You could see the adulation from Barsad when he says "They work for the mercernary...the masked man." The movie is saying that the mere fact that Bane wears a mask adds to his mystique and legend. Both Bruce's and Bane's masks represent an earlier trauma in their lives. Both masks are their ways of dealing with pain (Bruce emotional, Bane physical). But they both use it to inspire fear. And they also use it to protect people they care about, as Bruce instructs Blake later on in the film. In the case of Bane of course using the mask/his persona, by being the guy that has everyone's attention throughout the course of the film, he is able to protect Talia. The prologue manages to set up Bane as Bruce's evil doppleganger in a mere 6 minutes, while delivering a thrilling action set piece. Go figure!

The fact that Bane physically needs the mask to survive is very symbolic too, of course. Bane is unable to live without the mask. By the end of TDKR, Bruce finally is. So, the mask theme is clearly at play in the film. It just didn't pan out the way that guy was hoping/expecting.

Wonderful post
Parallels like that really make me believe that a truly amazing film lies somewhere in TDKR. But instead we got a film made off a script that clearly needed at least another draft or two to polish up and weave the story fluidly.

 

[The Joker]

It has no problems. The problems that you have for the film are your problems and not the film itself.

Personally, I'm not sure if TDKR has too much exposition or not. I personally think that it has a simple thin paper plot and manages to cover it up with its extremely detailed complex dialogue and big words. The plot is a lot more simple than people seem to think it is (at least I would argue that it is). Meanwhile, many illogical plot holes and character motivations are not explained at all and are underdeveloped.


People were also talking about Talia and Bane a few posts ago. Some of those posts were directly addressed to me (I was reading them once in a while through my phone) but I didn't have time this past weekend to sat down and address each post. So I'll address everything in a nutshell.

For those saying the football scene was just Bane bluffing, the problem with that is the reveal that Bane is just Talia's muscle. From that point on, you literally know nothing about Bane. You don't know his origin, his motivations, his intentions, and all of that. You have no idea from that point on what certain things said in the movie by him were him telling the truth and what certain things were him just bluffing. Talia completely destroyed Bane as a character IMO.

Speaking of Talia, I do agree with everyone that says she was forced into the movie. However, the biggest problem with Talia are her motivations and the fact that she clearly doesn't understand what the LOS and her father believed in. Her motivation is "I hated my father until you killed him". I'm still trying to comprehend the logic behind that motivation. If anyone here can enlighten me a bit, that would be greatly appreciated. I address the flaws of Talia's motivations in the paragraph below.

Speaking of Talia and Bane's motivations, which some people talked about, if you think about it, Talia and Bane don't even understand the motivations/reasons of Ra's al Ghul and the LOS. First, the LOS would have no reason to destroy Gotham now that it has been cleaned up to the point where the mayor has to replace Gordon because he's not needed anymore, as someone here already said. If the LOS knew about the Dent cover-up, then maybe that would've made sense. However, as previous posts have already said, Bane/Talia didn't find out about the cover-up until they got to Gotham. Second, Bane/Talia (and presumably the LOS as well, since Bane and Talia kept saying they were part of) were going to destroy themselves with Gotham and they both even talked about how they were going to fulfill Ra's al Ghul's "destiny". The problem right there is that destroying Gotham was not the destiny of Ra's al Ghul. Gotham was just the next city Ra's al Ghul was targeting and once he destroyed it, the LOS would've moved on to another city. Ra's was never going to destroy himself with the city at any point as Talia & Bane were planning (or at least Talia, since she was in charge of the whole thing). So not only does Talia have an illogical motivation but she also doesn't even understand her father's goals and the purpose of the LOS.


Also, if you think about it, the LOS themselves never appear in the movie. Look at the LOS in Batman Begins. Do any of Bane's mercenaries look like that, act like that, dress like that, or do anything like that? It doesn't seem that way to me. All you get in the movie is Talia and Bane say that they are the League of Shadows but the League itself never appears.


It also bothers me Bane never had the Venom drug or something similar. I really don't buy that it wouldn't have worked with Nolan's realism. I think it totally would've worked. The Venom drug doesn't exactly make you flip cars and tanks like the Hulk, at least not in Knightfall which is Bane at his prime in the comics. If you could get away with Scarecrow's fear gas, the water vaporizing machine, and a man walking around with burns a man in real life would die for, then I don't see why you can't get away with something similar to the Venom drug. Heck, it doesn't even have to be the Venom drug. You could've made it simple steroids or something similar to a steroid. There is even a scene in the film where Bane makes a hole through solid brick and I have yet to see a person complain about that. In fact, I have yet to see a majority of viewers in general (not just comic book fans) have a problem with half the illogical things in the movie, such as how he heals from his back injury, the leg brace, etc. I just really don't see how the Venom drug couldn't have worked.

Someone also said that the problems the people on this page seem to have with TDKR is the liberties it takes from the comics and that we should look at the movie for what it is - a movie. However, I already addressed in this thread why I believe TDKR to be bad no matter in what way you look at it.

Excellent post