Great issue over all, Finally some good Character development.
It's almost safe to say that [BLACKOUT]Harry[/BLACKOUT] is Menace.
[BLACKOUT]His[/BLACKOUT] motives are EXTREMELY similar to Menace's in this issue.
I LOVE Anti-venom.
I think his character is pretty interesting and is a great big step in the right direction. Finally after almost 20 years someone is doing something right with Venom. t:
Norman was spot on in this issue.
The only problem I have with it is....
How he figured Spidey was cutting a deal with Peter. That's a little on the dumb side for someone like Norman.
Great issue over all, Finally some good Character development.
It's almost safe to say that [blackout]Harry[/blackout] is Menace.
[blackout]His[/blackout] motives are EXTREMELY similar to Menace's in this issue.
I LOVE Anti-venom.
I think his character is pretty interesting and is a great big step in the right direction. Finally after almost 20 years someone is doing something right with Venom. t:
Norman was spot on in this issue.
The only problem I have with it is....
How he figured Spidey was cutting a deal with Peter. That's a little on the dumb side for someone like Norman.
Especially since [blackout]the camera, which Norman would have to know belongs to Peter, is secured by webbing[/blackout] I do have a slight disagreement about Anti-Venom, in that, if you think about it, it's really just another take on Venom's "Lethal Protector" phase that all but ruined the character in the first place, although, to be fair, it's a far more messed-up version of it. Also, the idea of [blackout]Harry being Menace[/blackout] is most likely a red herring, as I'm sure by the end of New Ways to Die, we'll see [blackout]Harry meeting with Menace and talking about how everything so far is going to plan, but that Menace shouldn't have gone after Norman like he did[/blackout]. In fact, I'm becoming more convinced that Menace is really [blackout]Carlie Cooper.[/blackout].
I originally posted this on the general "New Ways To Die" thread, but it looks like people may have moved on from it. Hope you don't mind me reposting here:
I have to say. Despite my utter disgust of OMD & BND, I am really enjoying this arc! Having JR JR back certainly helps!
I even don't mind Norman not remembering. He lost his memory plenty back in the day, so this would even work without BND.
OK, first, I'd like to ask what the heck is the public standing on Norman? I know initially, when Norman died, no one knew he was GG. Later on, Ben Urich wrote a book about Norman being GG. Then Norman comes back, and claims he faked his death to escape enemies and went about trying to say he wasn't GG (using a 5th GG, who was that anyway?) But, then he was arrested in Marvel Knights, therefore again Norman & GG known as the same. Then Spidey helps him break out and he disappears in a fight with Doc Ock. Norman sends a letter to Pete. But then, he was in jail again during Civil War (mad that Pete unmasked). How was he arrested again? And then he tries to assassinate an ambasador from Atlantis? Did the government make him do it? If so, why? And then they turn around and make him the director of Thunderbolts? Am I missing something?
Anyway, I see speculation on the ID of Menace, such as Carlie, Lily, and Harry. Hints in this arc seem to point to Harry. But let me offer a weird theory:
[blackout] Ben Urich![/blackout]
Ben certainly knows Norman is GG. His research probably let him know where some of Norman's store houses are. He has been featured again in Amazing, running the Pulse. He seemed to latch on the sweatshop angle that Menace "accidentally" exposed. He seems to be a Hollister supporter (both Ben & Menace). And this wouldn't be the first time Marvel linked a newspaper man with a Goblin (Ned Leeds/Hobgoblin). Seems Ben is trying to do some "good" with the Goblin stuff (from his political view). What do you think? Anyone? Just me?
Ben certainly knows Norman is GG. His research probably let him know where some of Norman's store houses are. He has been featured again in Amazing, running the Pulse. He seemed to latch on the sweatshop angle that Menace "accidentally" exposed. He seems to be a Hollister supporter (both Ben & Menace). And this wouldn't be the first time Marvel linked a newspaper man with a Goblin (Ned Leeds/Hobgoblin). Seems Ben is trying to do some "good" with the Goblin stuff (from his political view). What do you think? Anyone? Just me?
I originally posted this on the general "New Ways To Die" thread, but it looks like people may have moved on from it. Hope you don't mind me reposting here:
I have to say. Despite my utter disgust of OMD & BND, I am really enjoying this arc! Having JR JR back certainly helps!
I even don't mind Norman not remembering. He lost his memory plenty back in the day, so this would even work without BND.
OK, first, I'd like to ask what the heck is the public standing on Norman? I know initially, when Norman died, no one knew he was GG. Later on, Ben Urich wrote a book about Norman being GG. Then Norman comes back, and claims he faked his death to escape enemies and went about trying to say he wasn't GG (using a 5th GG, who was that anyway?) But, then he was arrested in Marvel Knights, therefore again Norman & GG known as the same. Then Spidey helps him break out and he disappears in a fight with Doc Ock. Norman sends a letter to Pete. But then, he was in jail again during Civil War (mad that Pete unmasked). How was he arrested again? And then he tries to assassinate an ambasador from Atlantis? Did the government make him do it? If so, why? And then they turn around and make him the director of Thunderbolts? Am I missing something?
Anyway, I see speculation on the ID of Menace, such as Carlie, Lily, and Harry. Hints in this arc seem to point to Harry. But let me offer a weird theory:
[blackout] Ben Urich![/blackout]
Ben certainly knows Norman is GG. His research probably let him know where some of Norman's store houses are. He has been featured again in Amazing, running the Pulse. He seemed to latch on the sweatshop angle that Menace "accidentally" exposed. He seems to be a Hollister supporter (both Ben & Menace). And this wouldn't be the first time Marvel linked a newspaper man with a Goblin (Ned Leeds/Hobgoblin). Seems Ben is trying to do some "good" with the Goblin stuff (from his political view). What do you think? Anyone? Just me?
I personally am enjoying these comics, don't know what's there to complain about, much. Peter got his humor back, though at times I think its too much. I don't see how he's not being responsible, he gave up the paparazzi thing.
Anti-Venom could use bit more shaping up though, cause he (Eddie) didn't really react realistically to when he became Anti-Venom. First of all Eddie showed great hatred toward being Venom and then all of a sudden he became this new white-venom and he's liking it, don't know if its the alien messing with his mind again. Oh by the way I also say Menace is Harry
I keep hearing this from people at sites...that Pete got his humor back, so they like the reboot.
Did Marvel have to hit the reboot button, erase 20 years of history, to write jokes for Spidey comics again?
I've even read posts where some people would say that a "Single" Pete jokes better and is funnier.
Now, that is funny.
Pete was funny before. Some stories, like BIB, however do not carry that tone for a purpose....but humor doesn't validate hitting the panic button and resetting things. Anyone can add humor, at any time, any story, is my point. OMD/BND and humor have nothing to do with each other, no correlation. Nothing.
I keep hearing this from people at sites...that Pete got his humor back, so they like the reboot.
Did Marvel have to hit the reboot button, erase 20 years of history, to write jokes for Spidey comics again?
I've even read posts where some people would say that a "Single" Pete jokes better and is funnier.
Now, that is funny.
Pete was funny before. Some stories, like BIB, however do not carry that tone for a purpose....but humor doesn't validate hitting the panic button and resetting things. Anyone can add humor, at any time, any story, is my point. OMD/BND and humor have nothing to do with each other, no correlation. Nothing.
And in comics like Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man and Sensational Spider-Man during Back in Black, the humor was still intact. Likewise, PAD, for all the flaws Friendly Neighborhood had, was bringing back members of Peter's supporting cast and was trying to use them despite editoral interference with his plans for the title--which is another complaint some of the pro-BND folks have also used to justify the changes resulting in OMD/BND. And for those who complain about there being a lack of humor from Peter or lack of his traditional supporting cast in Amazing Spider-Man at the time, well remember it was Joe Q who was giving the greenlight for stories like the "The Other" "The War at Home" and "Back in Black" specifically because they intentionally were writing Spider-Man into a corner so that the only way out was Mephisto's magical marriage annulment courtesy of One More Day.
STILLANERD: And in comics like Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man and Sensational Spider-Man during Back in Black, the humor was still intact. Likewise, PAD, for all the flaws Friendly Neighborhood had, was bringing back members of Peter's supporting cast and was trying to use them despite editoral interference with his plans for the title--which is another complaint some of the pro-BND folks have also used to justify the changes resulting in OMD/BND. And for those who complain about there being a lack of humor from Peter or lack of his traditional supporting cast in Amazing Spider-Man at the time, well remember it was Joe Q who was giving the greenlight for stories like the "The Other" "The War at Home" and "Back in Black" specifically because they intentionally were writing Spider-Man into a corner so that the only way out was Mephisto's magical marriage annulment courtesy of One More Day.
Joe Q. had Spidey purposely written into a corner, his plan all along...and then (some) people sing his praises when he hits the panic button once he has hit his own wall.
Scary thing is, he can write this new alternate version of Peter into a corner at any time too, and then start out again with yet another alternate Pete. There is nothing stopping him now if fans don't put their feet down on cheap tactics really.
Anything in history, the past 20 years or more, is no longer sacred.
At any point, Joe can come out from the sidelines, throw his red flag, and yell that "IT NEVER HAPPEND" anymore. (sorry, been watching football here...lol...)
The staff could've written as much or as little supporting cast they wanted before, based on Joe's vision and direction. They could've written as much humor too. Joe held him back for the reboot coming along. Now the comics are held back by the regression and the seen-it-done-it storyline.
Marvel wanted a single Spider-Man for 15 years... taking advantage of what Stan Lee was going to do in the comic strips in 1987, they forced the marriage upon us at that time and enjoyed the sales for a few years, only to realize that they really didn't want/need a married Spider-Man.
Now they have what they wanted... it doesn't matter that these "stories" could have been told with a married Spider-Man... the bottom line is that they DID NOT WANT a married Spider-Man.
So find all the flaws/complaints/ad nauseum that you want... we don't "own" Spider-Man... Marvel Comics Inc. does... and that's what they want... a single Spider-Man... and like it's been said, they will sit it out for the long haul and hope that sales begin to get normal... and with cartoons/movies depicting a single Spider-Man, it could take a few years, perhaps longer, to make the general public that picks up a Spider-Man comic to read about a single Spider-Man (seeing as that's what they'll know) and carry on.
I didn't like OMD any better than any of you guys, but the drama queen lines like "anything in history, the past 20 years or more, is no longer sacred" are getting rather tiresome... your posts, typically posts that I enjoy reading, are fast becoming one-trick ponies... I realize that it's all opinions, and I respect them (especially yours farmie... ), but it would be nice to talk about something different.
Marvel wanted a single Spider-Man for 15 years... taking advantage of what Stan Lee was going to do in the comic strips in 1987, they forced the marriage upon us at that time and enjoyed the sales for a few years, only to realize that they really didn't want/need a married Spider-Man.
Now they have what they wanted... it doesn't matter that these "stories" could have been told with a married Spider-Man... the bottom line is that they DID NOT WANT a married Spider-Man.
So find all the flaws/complaints/ad nauseum that you want... we don't "own" Spider-Man... Marvel Comics Inc. does... and that's what they want... a single Spider-Man... and like it's been said, they will sit it out for the long haul and hope that sales begin to get normal... and with cartoons/movies depicting a single Spider-Man, it could take a few years, perhaps longer, to make the general public that picks up a Spider-Man comic to read about a single Spider-Man (seeing as that's what they'll know) and carry on.
I didn't like OMD any better than any of you guys, but the drama queen lines like "anything in history, the past 20 years or more, is no longer sacred" are getting rather tiresome... your posts, typically posts that I enjoy reading, are fast becoming one-trick ponies... I realize that it's all opinions, and I respect them (especially yours farmie... ), but it would be nice to talk about something different.
Hey, I get that Marvel wanted a single Spider-Man just fine. I can even understand the rationale in that they want Spider-Man to be as close as possible to what he was originally concieved as--a teenage superhero who wasn't a sidekick who had to deal with everyday life just as much as he had to deal with being a superhero. Perfectly fine by me. My complaint is that the way it was done via One More Day was half-assed, not to mention that Spider-Man was really kind of at a point of no return but they decided to go backwards rather than trying to build upon what they had. Deep down, I get the sense that Marvel really wishes that Ultimate Spider-Man was the status quo for the mainstream Marvel Universe version of Spidey. Heck, they'd probably would like Spectacular Spider-Man to be the status quo for their Mainstream Marvel Universe version of Spidey. But short of doing a massive COIE, it's not going to happen, so they have come up with stuff like OMD/BND.
Also, the point I made is that all the rationalizations in the world such as Spider-Man was no longer fun, or that his supporting cast had dwindled down to just Aunt May and Mary Jane, or that there was too much angst going on, that he'd gotten too old, etc.--all of those are excuses for the simple reason as you said: Marvel did not want a married Spider-Man. They wanted to try and recapture those Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and John Romita days but to the point where it seems they are all but aping earlier stories (and in some ways, I get the sense that they feel they can do better than them). Such is the danger of nostalgia. Whatever Marvel and some fans come up with to justify the decision to essentially reboot the title--and that's EXACTLY what Marvel did despite their arguments to the contrary and the "everything happened the same way except Peter and MJ lived together instead"--boils down to the simple fact that they wanted a version of Spider-Man they remembered, not necessarily what he was or had become.
It's about nostalgia now with Spider-man,...wanting to go back in time and capture the feel of yesteryears...start over there, again.
However, have you seen the new Dukes of HAzzard film? Not good. Scooby Doo? I could go on witht he re-doing of popular stuff from times ago.
Any of the old nostalgic things of yesteryear...often when they redo them, force them back into THIS day and age...they're just not the same, nor not as good, or original since it was already done once, better.
Same with this spidey reboot, i think is what stillanerd and i were saying.
I am aware marvel "owns" spidey...and can do anything they want with him....that doesn't mean they won't or haven't done totally asinine things tho, that we must accept.
In some ways they've turned the comic into The Amazing Cabbage Patch Kid-Man.
Nostaligic to some degree....i dunno,maybe...but as stillanerd said, ignoring what Pete and Spider-Man have BECOME, to force him into something popular, of the past, popular at THAT time.
At some point you have to accept what one has become and move on, instead, we've had foisted upon us a mid-life crisis involving the devil if you will.
Nostaligic to some degree....i dunno,maybe...but as stillanerd said, ignoring what Pete and Spider-Man have BECOME, to force him into something popular, of the past, popular at THAT time.
At some point you have to accept what one has become and move on, instead, we've had foisted upon us a mid-life crisis involving the devil if you will.
That's it exactly. To be fair, most comics contain an element of nostalgia to them, a call for "simplier and better" days where the lines between what was good and what was evil are clearly defined. Some of them turn out to be good stories. The problem is when creators use that nostalgia in an attempt to one-up the original creators and try to out-do them conceptually with the concepts and characters they weren't responsible in creating in the first place. (The Ultimate line is often guilty of this at it's worse by the way.) For example, remember the early part of Brand New Day with all the problems Peter was having with mechanical web-shooters? It wasn't just simply running out of web-fluid; we had stolen web-shooters, jammed web-shooters, frozen web-shooters, web fluid that was too thin, web fluid that was too thick, and not enough money to make web fluid--all within a four month period. Even Wacker had to admit it got ridiculous. Nothing wrong with using classic tropes of Spider-Man, mind you, but there is such a things as over-doing it. Even worse is when you use concepts that no longer work logistically given how far the character has developed. For instance, I doubt many would have had a problem with the idea of Peter having to become a pappazzi for financial reasons when he was roughly still in high school or college and having Aunt May to still support as opposed to being an adult in his mid to late twenties where he should have known better, as was depicted in the actual story.
Hate to do this but I have no other option. I'm posting part of my college work to see how it is, and to copy and paste it to my assignment. will delete later...
I had a very busy work week, so I only got to pick up this issue yesterday...
Again, great stuff... nothing in any major reveals, but just good action packed pace, [blackout]and a subtle clue that Menace knew that Norman was once impaled by a glider (who the heck knows THAT besides Norman, Peter & Harry?)[/blackout].
Can't wait for the big Bullseye fight next issue....
I had a very busy work week, so I only got to pick up this issue yesterday...
Again, great stuff... nothing in any major reveals, but just good action packed pace, [blackout]and a subtle clue that Menace knew that Norman was once impaled by a glider (who the heck knows THAT besides Norman, Peter & Harry?)[/blackout].
Can't wait for the big Bullseye fight next issue....
I thought it was common knowledge the GG was impaled by the glider (It happened in a very public place) and since pulse and ulrich outted Norman as GG.... there you go.
A couple thoughts....
Based on menance's rant I doubt he's Harry or Lily because of the family speech. It seems like someone actually envious of Norman and his life's work (so someone fundamentally unhappy with their own). I'm still going with my original guess that's it's Ned Leeds back from the dead. (before anyone scoffs at that, look at harry)
Anti Venom seems too powerful, I get he's the clean up crew to stop the symbiote maddness (and I applaud the idea) but this seems like a case of a new guy having the power to have all the powers and that never works out to make a rounded character (sentry I'm looking at your ridiculously stupid ass with that statement).
I wasn't a giant fan of Menance making his bones by beating down Norman, but it was ok considering the situation, though it really felt like reaching.
Norman got clever with the camera thing. It's a shame he didn't think the whole spider-man unmasked but everyone forgot and all the footage was erased for some unexplicable reason was worth his attention or consideration.
Slott nailed a lot of the dialogue (especially Norman, Songbird and Pete), though eddie sounded like a standard lunatic.
Stillanerd and Farmie always hit the nail on the head concerning why I don't like the new direction. This reboot would have worked better during Mackie's run...why? no one was reading.....no one would notice. lol.
but without jokes, I thought this issue in paticular was actually REALLY good. I'm actually excited for the next ish. seeing that they are giving Bullseye a weapon to get pay back on Spidey.
So TMOB what did you think about Norman in the ish? Did you have the same minor problem I had with it or no?
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