Arrow Arrow season 4 episode 21 "Monument Point"

[Batsfan1]

I think on an episodic basis, yes. But as the overall of a season? I think it is an interesting option. The first 3 seasons dealt with just Star City and possible destruction of it. This is the first time the season has really revolved around the entire world and Oliver and his team are really the only ones with the capability and the knowledge to stop it.

Only because they're keeping it to themselves. Barry can run at superspeed. That alone could have been useful against Darkh in some way. But him being called has never been mentioned. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Slade W]

Barry has his own problems to deal with and is busy. The show is called Arrow, not Flash. I want to see Oliver and his team go up against and defeat enemies, not Barry.

 

[Batsfan1]

Barry has his own problems to deal with and is busy. The show is called Arrow, not Flash. I want to see Oliver and his team go up against and defeat enemies, not Barry.

Then the universe should have never introduced Barry, or at least give a good reason why he can't get involved. The minute the show involved Barry in Arrow's affairs and had him take care of a problem easily, the minute they created a problem for themselves they became obligated as writers to deal with and opened themselves up to critique if they didn't, otherwise Oliver looks like a bad and dangerously careless person for not pulling out the big guns in a world threatening situation or at least explain why they can't. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Jedi Arrow]

Then the universe should have never introduced Barry, or at least give a good reason why he can't get involved. The minute the show involved Barry in Arrow's affairs and had him take care of a problem easily, the minute they created a problem for themselves they became obligated as writers to deal with and opened themselves up to critique if they didn't, otherwise Oliver looks like a bad and dangerously careless person for not pulling out the big guns in a world threatening situation or at least explain why they can't. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Um, yeah, no. This is like complaining that Captain America didn't show up in Iron Man 3 or that Tony didn't come to help Steve out in Winter Soldier, or something. It's not a valid complaint. Right now, Barry's dealing with Zoom. He showed up for Laurel's funeral, but we know that has to have happened right after this episode, "The Runaway Dinosaur," when he just got his speed back. Now he'll be dealing with Zoom's metahuman army; no way can he show up to help deal with Darhk.

On the other hand, Firestorm would've been the perfect solution to the nuke...if he weren't off with Rip Hunter. So yes, there are valid reasons not to bring superheroes in from other shows to help. The comics do it all the time; you don't see other heroes show up in the standalone arcs of other heroes, usually. It would be ridiculous. As is your complaint.

 

[Batsfan1]

Um, yeah, no. This is like complaining that Captain America didn't show up in Iron Man 3 or that Tony didn't come to help Steve out in Winter Soldier, or something. It's not a valid complaint. Right now, Barry's dealing with Zoom. He showed up for Laurel's funeral, but we know that has to have happened right after this episode, "The Runaway Dinosaur," when he just got his speed back. Now he'll be dealing with Zoom's metahuman army; no way can he show up to help deal with Darhk.

On the other hand, Firestorm would've been the perfect solution to the nuke...if he weren't off with Rip Hunter. So yes, there are valid reasons not to bring superheroes in from other shows to help. The comics do it all the time; you don't see other heroes show up in the standalone arcs of other heroes, usually. It would be ridiculous. As is your complaint.

I can and do complain about that in the MCU, if I talked much about the MCU. It's still a problem I have with TWS, IM 3, while that's an issue too, there's others. It's a very valid complaint. It's a shared universe. They're obligated to answer why they can't if they're not going to. If the show provided a real timeline for the show, that reasoning might hold water, but they haven't. For Firestorm, there's a built in reasoning. Not I don't care what the comics fail at. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Jedi Arrow]

I can and do complain about that in the MCU, if I talked much about the MCU. It's still a problem I have with TWS, IM 3, while that's an issue too, there's others. It's a very valid complaint. It's a shared universe. They're obligated to answer why they can't if they're not going to. If the show provided a real timeline for the show, that reasoning might hold water, but they haven't. For Firestorm, there's a built in reasoning. Not I don't care what the comics fail at. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

It's not valid. Barry's busy right now, as are other heroes, usually, when one has something going on. For example, I believe all Stark's IM suits were still smashed up in TWS and he was probably working on those drone things we saw in AOU. If Firestorm has built-in reasoning, so does Barry; he's dealing with an army of meta-humans.

 

[Batsfan1]

It's not valid. Barry's busy right now, as are other heroes, usually, when one has something going on. For example, I believe all Stark's IM suits were still smashed up in TWS and he was probably working on those drone things we saw in AOU. If Firestorm has built-in reasoning, so does Barry; he's dealing with an army of meta-humans.

For Tony, that's a built in explanation why Tony doesn't come. But I'm not talking about why Barry doesn't go to Star City. For all intents and purposes he has no idea what's happening. But a meta human army takes a backseat to nuclear destruction, if he did know. I'm talking about why Oliver doesn't try to get Barry's help when they're facing nuclear world destruction. That's valid. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Jedi Arrow]

For Tony, that's a built in explanation why Tony doesn't come. But I'm not talking about why Barry doesn't go to Star City. For all intents and purposes he has no idea what's happening. But a meta human army takes a backseat to nuclear destruction, if he did know. I'm talking about why Oliver doesn't try to get Barry's help when they're facing nuclear world destruction. That's valid. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

Um, because Oliver knows Barry's dealing with Zoom, that's why. He says as much after Laurel's funeral. He knows Barry's busy.

 

[Batsfan1]

Um, because Oliver knows Barry's dealing with Zoom, that's why. He says as much after Laurel's funeral. He knows Barry's busy.

No, he doesn't. That was 3 episodes ago and this is world destruction, which is way more important than Zoom. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Gallops]

No, he doesn't. That was 3 episodes ago and this is world destruction, which is way more important than Zoom. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

We don't know where the timelines match up right now with Flash/Arrow. They haven't been clear with that. Right now on Arrow could be right after Barry lost his speed for all we know so he'd be rendered useless anyway.

If the timelines matched up perfectly, that'd be one thing. And even then, after Oliver and co. found out about Genesis is when all of E2's metas came over. Barry leaves for even a day and Central City is probably in ruins.

Besides, who's to say Barry would have been able to done much more? What needed to be done to counteract the nukes was something only Kutter and Felicity could handle anyway. What would Barry have done in this case?

 

[CrystalFortress]

We don't know where the timelines match up right now with Flash/Arrow. They haven't been clear with that. Right now on Arrow could be right after Barry lost his speed for all we know so he'd be rendered useless anyway.

If the timelines matched up perfectly, that'd be one thing. And even then, after Oliver and co. found out about Genesis is when all of E2's metas came over. Barry leaves for even a day and Central City is probably in ruins.

Besides, who's to say Barry would have been able to done much more? What needed to be done to counteract the nukes was something only Kutter and Felicity could handle anyway. What would Barry have done in this case?

Barry's speed would have possibly enabled the defeat of Dahrk by removing him from the nexus chamber before the nuke hit. Or stolen the processor.

I generally agree that the heroes of other shows shouldn't be showing up to save the day, especially with the power disparity between The Flash and Arrow. Which is why Arrow shouldn't be dealing with end of the world type events with a reasonable time-scale to call in allies. If that 21 hours was 3 they might not have been able to call in their outside allies but with 21 they've got ample opportunity at least contact them. Even the Argus task force was pathetic compared with the scale of the event, and their director is recurring character.

Central city falling to Zoom pales in comparison to the place, and the rest of the world being nuked.

It stands out a little since Flash called in both Firestorm and Oliver to help take down the Reverse Flash in season 1 but Flash has never really been called upon.

I kind of hope they tackle a little of the political fallout. While it's clear the US government know it was the result of a cyber-attack it was still a Russian nuclear strike on US citizens. Their should be significant fall out from that. A Nuclear strike in the 21st century would also have a large effect on the public psyche.

 

[mr. peasant]

Barry's speed would have possibly enabled the defeat of Dahrk by removing him from the nexus chamber before the nuke hit. Or stolen the processor.

I generally agree that the heroes of other shows shouldn't be showing up to save the day, especially with the power disparity between The Flash and Arrow. Which is why Arrow shouldn't be dealing with end of the world type events with a reasonable time-scale to call in allies. If that 21 hours was 3 they might not have been able to call in their outside allies but with 21 they've got ample opportunity at least contact them. Even the Argus task force was pathetic compared with the scale of the event, and their director is recurring character.

Central city falling to Zoom pales in comparison to the place, and the rest of the world being nuked.

It stands out a little since Flash called in both Firestorm and Oliver to help take down the Reverse Flash in season 1 but Flash has never really been called upon.

I kind of hope they tackle a little of the political fallout. While it's clear the US government know it was the result of a cyber-attack it was still a Russian nuclear strike on US citizens. Their should be significant fall out from that. A Nuclear strike in the 21st century would also have a large effect on the public psyche.

I'd argue that this (characters from a shared universe not showing up in each other's standalone shows) is one of the "acceptable breaks from reality" that are simply part of narrative convention, no different from how characters are protected from bullets simply by hiding behind cover such as couches even when they shouldn't really be bulletproof, people never needing to use the toilet, or how there's always a parking space conveniently close to the destination regardless of how busy or jammed the city is.

It's a necessary suspension of disbelief that's required to enjoy fiction without causing writers to get bogged down and restricted by such unnecessary detail.

 

[Lencho01]

Anarky calling Thea, "Mommy" cracked me up.

What's with Oliver doing all of Roy's flips?!

 

[Mike Murdock]

That was an ok episode IMO, but not a great one. There were boring, silly scenes, that would then be followed up by good ones. The Donna/Quentin stuff was silly and drama for the sake of drama, but thankfully they did not feature much. I did not think much of the Thea/Anarky stuff either. I enjoyed all of Oliver and Diggle's scenes though.

I thought Donna's scenes actually made sense as a way of helping show why Felicity seems to overreact to any bit of dishonesty from Oliver - her dad was a pathological liar so she associates lying with the breakup of her family.

It would take 15 to 20 minutes like they showed. All they have to do is come over the arctic circle (North Pole).....Russia is closer to the United States than most people today think. When I was in school, we were constantly worried about a nuclear attack from the Russians....we were taught about how close they were and how quick they could get here.

The only thing I wondered is whether they could scramble a jet to take out a single missile. Seems like one is something we should be able to stop these days.

Did not expect the episode to end that way....[BLACKOUT]seen dozens of shows where the nuke is on the way and they always stop it....but tonight....kaboom!!!![/BLACKOUT]

Reminded me a lot of the first season "that's why I have a second Earthquake Machine."

The Collider Arrow recap show made a good point too. For a show like Arrow I think they should focus more on street level type threats over global earth ending type events. That isn't something Arrow should be tackling.

While I don't necessarily disagree in theory, we are way beyond that now. We've dealt with threats that could destroy an entire city. I'm glad they weren't doing "save Star City again" (seriously, why does anyone still live there?) and you can't go smaller than that. Bigger is the only thing that makes sense to me.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

What's with Oliver doing all of Roy's flips?!

No, but that was the coolest fight scene this season. Brick vs. Green Arrow is probably the best thing to come out of this half of S4. I was drooling and cheering during that whole scene. t:

 

[Batsfan1]

I'd argue that this (characters from a shared universe not showing up in each other's standalone shows) is one of the "acceptable breaks from reality" that are simply part of narrative convention, no different from how characters are protected from bullets simply by hiding behind cover such as couches even when they shouldn't really be bulletproof, people never needing to use the toilet, or how there's always a parking space conveniently close to the destination regardless of how busy or jammed the city is.

It's a necessary suspension of disbelief that's required to enjoy fiction without causing writers to get bogged down and restricted by such unnecessary detail.

That only works if the shows haven't had characters come over and easily handle the problem. The show brought that into the show. Which means they're obligated to point out why something like that can't happen. You can't introduce an element and then ignore it in fiction.

While I don't necessarily disagree in theory, we are way beyond that now. We've dealt with threats that could destroy an entire city. I'm glad they weren't doing "save Star City again" (seriously, why does anyone still live there?) and you can't go smaller than that. Bigger is the only thing that makes sense to me.

How? The show has had big nonsense, so now it has even bigger nonsense and that's still reusing the same thing over and over. It's the same, just bigger, which still doesn't fit the character. Have a very great day everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Slade W]

How? The show has had big nonsense, so now it has even bigger nonsense and that's still reusing the same thing over and over. It's the same, just bigger, which still doesn't fit the character. Have a very great day everyone!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

What nonsense are you referring to exactly? The threat this year does fit this version of the character, but the writers could be doing a better job with it to have made it better and more interesting.

 

[Lencho01]

No, but that was the coolest fight scene this season. Brick vs. Green Arrow is probably the best thing to come out of this half of S4. I was drooling and cheering during that whole scene. t:

I was just kidding. I thought the fight was cool. Though, it really did remind me of Roy.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

I was just kidding. I thought the fight was cool. Though, it really did remind me of Roy.

I know, I was agreeing with you. Just I worded it badly. Reminded me of Roy too.

 

[aNarcHy2day]

I didn't get the Det. Lance subplot.

He didn't come forward because he feared for his daughter.
He came forward.
His daughter got killed.

Why does it matter if she was a superhero? She got killed despite being a superhero and so it vindicates Lance's initial stand.

Also, pretty sure Palmer Tech has bylaws that would prevent BoD just randomly sacking their boss?

Those are two things that really bugged me.

The episode itself was okay and the nuke actually going off was a nice surprise.

 

[CrystalFortress]

I didn't get the Det. Lance subplot.

He didn't come forward because he feared for his daughter.
He came forward.
His daughter got killed.

Why does it matter if she was a superhero? She got killed despite being a superhero and so it vindicates Lance's initial stand.

Also, pretty sure Palmer Tech has bylaws that would prevent BoD just randomly sacking their boss?

Those are two things that really bugged me.

The episode itself was okay and the nuke actually going off was a nice surprise.

I thought the Lance sub-plot was unneeded really. I can see why knowing Laurel was the Black Canary would throw a bit of doubt over his testimony given that he would have to think Dahrk posed a much more serious threat than the average gangster to be willing to go to the lengths he did. Knowing Laurel could defend herself against common thugs. Given the police don't know about Dahrk's magic (At least I don't recall them knowing) , he would just appear to be the leader of an extremely competent gang or perhaps a terrorist organisation. Both legitimate positions to fear reprisal from, after all she is just someone in a Halloween costume with some martial arts experience and a fancy toy.

In my opinion knowing she was the Black Canary only reinforces the threat Cpt. Lance thought Dahrk posed. She could defend herself from some common street level gang but an organisation as powerful as HIVE... Not so much.

I still question the competency of that police force. They know Laurel was the Black Canary they know the builds of the Arrow / Spartan / Speedy , they know Oliver knew Laurel == Black Canary and they haven't been shown to chase down any of those connections. Then again if they were competent we wouldn't need The Arrow jumping around in a Halloween costume.

Felicity was sacked after the board voted to oust her. For quite frankly legitimate reasons. They had concerns about the direction she was leading the company and she wouldn't even show up to reassure them. She might have had better things to be doing but of course couldn't exactly share that information.

Now they probably couldn't have had her escorted from the building considering she still owns a majority of shares but they could certainly remove her as CEO.

 

[aNarcHy2day]

But didn't she save their ash 3 episodes ago? Those are some really stone-hearted executives over at PalmerTech.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

But didn't she save their ash 3 episodes ago? Those are some really stone-hearted executives over at PalmerTech.

Yeah, and I'd bet Mr. "...I'm-calling-9-1-1..." was behind it all. That guy's been a real jerk since he first appeared and I really hate every scene he's in. Except for "...I'm-calling-9-1-1..." because it was so terribly acted it was hilarious.

 

[Fincher]

I like that it's a world-spanning threat this season because:

1. The last three seasons have involved Starling being attacked, which increasingly raises the question of why anyone would want to live there and how it can be saved. Because the whole world is in danger here, it doesn't add to the motivation for a mass exodus. To the contrary, Monument Point and the surrounding area is the scariest place in the country right now.

2. While having personal enemies like Slade whose actions follow from what the heroes have done has its value...since these are superheroes, I think that ultimately they should do more good in the world than harm. I should be able to believe that the world is overall a better place because of the existence of Green Arrow, Spartan, etc, rather than just thinking that their actions/intentions are noble. Up until now, it's been pretty vague on that point. Oliver stopped Fyers from blowing up the plane, but then that led to the virus being released in China, and more people ultimately died. He stopped part of the destruction of the Glades, but Deathstroke's attack happened because of him. It doesn't get more heroic than saving the world, though, so that's settled.


As for heroes from other shows not coming to save the day, the only time it bothered me was at the end of season 3 when Flash zoomed in to help at Nanda Parbat and then was all like "I have to go back to my home planet" so that the show could actually have a suspense-filled ending without him saving the day in his sleep. I can ignore it when the show allows me to ignore it instead of pointing a flashing neon arrow at it.