Comics Asm# 590

[Blader5489]

I really liked this issue, and I'm usually a Bendis-backer, but MAN did the events of this story seem muffled and even contradicted by last week's NA#51.

1. This should've been really powerful due to us seeing Peter taking the F4 as the ONE exception to his rule of "Nobody can know who I am". But since we have already seen him reveal himself to The New Avengers last week, it instead feels like "Heck, you trusted The Avengers, why not trust F4?".

2. Peter outright says in this issue "If I tell you I might as well tell The Avengers, too!" And he's able to be convinced to out himself to the F4 by Reed telling him that the same thing can be done to the F4 so his secret will stay safe with them...but Pete doesn't demand the same of The New Avengers.

3. It's established in this week's issue that as soon as someone finds out who Pete is, the memories of once knowing who they were suddenly rush back...but we saw that definitely NOT happen in NA.


Come on Bendis....did you even bother to ask Slott and the rest of the Webheads what their plans with Spidey were? It would've been helpful to do so so that you could at LEAST get the "rules" straight before you contradict them.

Bendis defying continuity? I'm shocked.

 

[moraldeficiency]

http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Tom_Brevoort/

should never be surprised by how certain readers react to some of the stories we publish, but I always am. I underestimate, or forget, the desire to ascribe Machiavellian motive to our actions, and the way the readers sometimes react to their favorite creators as though they were the characters—wanting to classify them each as White Hats or Black Hats depending on their own particular take on their work. I did it too, back when I was still only a reader and young and foolish and thought I knew more than I really did.

But seriously, folks, do any of you really believe that Brian Bendis unilaterally decided to have Spider-Man unmask himself to his fellow New Avengers without talking to anybody else about it?

I’m the editor of NEW AVENGERS. And I’m the editor who oversees AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. So right there, there’s an automatic level of coordination. Beyond that, this was all discussed at one of our Editorial Retreats—directly between Brian, myself, Steve Wacker and Dan Slott who was also in attendance. And the information was thereafter relayed to the rest of the ASM web-head braintrust.

So no, this wasn’t Brian somehow flipping the bird to the Spidey guys. It wasn’t an editorial commentary on “One More Day” or the thrice-monthly ASM. And it wasn’t some stealth operation that was snuck onto the racks without anybody knowing about it. Just think about it for two seconds—really, how likely is that? Really?

Also, since we’re talking about it, Peter revealing his face to the Avengers doesn’t negate the reason for “One More Day” or the choices he made therein. Spidey needed his identity erased from the minds of the world, but he was always comfortable with those heroes closest to him knowing about it—whether those people were Daredevil or the Black Cat or whomever. Showing Luke Cage his real face isn’t the same thing as showing it to everybody the world, after all. THAT’S the part he needed a take-back on.

More later.

Tom B

 

[iloveclones]

^ I agree with a lot of what he's saying, but don't blame the readers when you publish out of order, and make errors. I'm sure Bendis told the Spidey-team what he was going to do, but the way in which he presented wasn't exactly what was explained in Amazing. Normally, I would say "No Biggie", because I don't think it's that big of a deal. But I've been spending years no-prizing his comics and defending them around here. Why would I have to do that if he got things right in the first place (and didn't blame it on the artist.)

 

[moraldeficiency]

I would say half his fault half editorial's fault. Most of bendis' ****ups should have been caught and dealt with through proper checks.

 

[kguillou]

Honestly when Pete revealed his identity to the Na, i thought it was pretty cool but now that we know that he revealed it to the FF4 first, it kinda changes everything. The whole impact of the FF4 reveal is gone because we the readers already know that he will reveal his identity to the avengers too, so its not like Peter is making special exceptions. Peter plainly explained to the FF that he didnt want to do it because his i.d. is too sacred to share, even to his closest friends...but eventually conceded because the FF are like his family. So....what made him so easily give it up to the avengers? Peter even said " What's gona happen the next time Hydra brainwashes wolverine and he goes killing people?"

Again, i dont wanna sound like i'm complaining too much because i do love the fact that Peter's hero friends know his identity, but it just feels weird because we know that peter knowingly mind-wiped them into not knowing and not he's changing his mind??

 

[farmernudie]

I dunno....my feeling is that it is a slippery road....they just undid the whole unmasking....and now Pete's unmasking to a lot of people AGAIN...!!

He NEVER learns!!!!

These are all potential people that some villian can now get ahold of and have Pete's secret....so they can then KIDNAP his wife...(er, no, can't have a wife)....so the villian can then kidnap Pete's girlfriend (er, no, can't have a girlfriend now either for more than a few issues before it goes nowhere...).....so the villian can then kidnap his baby (er, no, aborted mystically)....so the villian can KIDNAP Aunt May or have her shot by a sniper (but she won't die & if she does Pete will deal with the devil AANNDDD also a "Mystery Bonus Person" too, to take eyes off the devil deal!!) and then the entire world can be WIPED again and a new MJ look-alike superhero will show up, and talk like MJ, only to be someone we don't know and Pete kisses JJJ to help his heart problems while finding out Flash Tompson lost his arms & both ears to Samolian Pirates! Woohoo! Brand New Forever Baby!!!

 

[farmernudie]

kguillou: So....what made him so easily give it up to the avengers?

t:

(i have so many smart remarks ready.......it hurts........................)

 

[kguillou]

Originally posted by Farmernudie

These are all potential people that some villian can now get ahold of and have Pete's secret....so they can then KIDNAP his wife...(er, no, can't have a wife)....so the villian can then kidnap Pete's girlfriend (er, no, can't have a girlfriend now either for more than a few issues before it goes nowhere...).....so the villian can then kidnap his baby (er, no, aborted mystically)....so the villian can KIDNAP Aunt May or have her shot by a sniper (but she won't die & if she does Pete will deal with the devil AANNDDD also a "Mystery Bonus Person" too, to take eyes off the devil deal!!) and then the entire world can be WIPED again and a new MJ look-alike superhero will show up, and talk like MJ, only to be someone we don't know and Pete kisses JJJ to help his heart problems while finding out Flash Tompson lost his arms & both ears to Samolian Pirates! Woohoo! Brand New Forever Baby!!!

HAHAHAHA, that was the funniest post i've read in a while. So farmernudie, so true.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

Is noone else here mad that Dan Slott ****ed up the time-shifting in this arc. First time moves quicker in our world than in the macroverse -- then it's the opposite way round! Using the word exponential doesnt solve this, slott! it makes it worse! by staying in there longer time should have slowed down fuurther in the outside world. I think this is more of a mistake than bendis' new avengers unmasking inconsistencies. I mean, jeez, who cares about rehashed plot points when the stories themselves no longer make any sense??
plus does noone else see this for what it was? A chance to fast forward time to a point where the status quo is more interesting, because the writers couldn't get us to that point naturally? and a way to throw a shocker in at the end in a way that prevented us from seeing it before it ocurred?

Having said all this... I couldn't help but like the arc. Even though it was incredibly flawed...

 

[iloveclones]

Is noone else here mad that Dan Slott ****ed up the time-shifting in this arc. First time moves quicker in our world than in the macroverse -- then it's the opposite way round! Using the word exponential doesnt solve this, slott! it makes it worse! by staying in there longer time should have slowed down fuurther in the outside world. I think this is more of a mistake than bendis' new avengers unmasking inconsistencies. I mean, jeez, who cares about rehashed plot points when the stories themselves no longer make any sense??
plus does noone else see this for what it was? A chance to fast forward time to a point where the status quo is more interesting, because the writers couldn't get us to that point naturally? and a way to throw a shocker in at the end in a way that prevented us from seeing it before it ocurred?

Having said all this... I couldn't help but like the arc. Even though it was incredibly flawed...

Well, considering he gave us a satisfactory (to me) explanation, and even admitted that he goofed (not in the time-line, but in explaining it), I think some of us would consider it bad form to be raking him over the coals for it. If you feel like you need to spam us over it, well, it's a free world.

http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=174819

 

[stillanerd]

plus does noone else see this for what it was? A chance to fast forward time to a point where the status quo is more interesting, because the writers couldn't get us to that point naturally? and a way to throw a shocker in at the end in a way that prevented us from seeing it before it ocurred?

Oh, that was a gripe I had with this issue. While some fans have been complaining about the lack of development in Amazing Spider-Man since Brand New Day started, her it went into the other extreme in which you got all kinds of development with virtually little build-up. Not to mention that it adds to the criticism that Peter Parker has become a static character since One More Day and yet everyone and everything around him can grow and develop. And in this issue that literally happens.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

Oh, that was a gripe I had with this issue. While some fans have been complaining about the lack of development in Amazing Spider-Man since Brand New Day started, her it went into the other extreme in which you got all kinds of development with virtually little build-up. Not to mention that it adds to the criticism that Peter Parker has become a static character since One More Day and yet everyone and everything around him can grow and develop. And in this issue that literally happens.

Yeah I completely agree with you. We're stuck with a peter Parker with less character and less history than the peter post-clone saga. Do you remember? When they ignored the whole thing and we were left with a character who had nothing going on and no links left to his supporting cast. Pah.

 

[farmernudie]

At least some of the other characters are getting more character and their history back...if Spidey flashes them his face, that is.

Things in this reboot can't get much worse, imo, but they are getting cornier and cheesier.

I almost wonder if JQ has his next reboot planned already, two years down the road, like he did before?

BND is old and has run its course to no-where (no progression rule) already.

Although, with such low numbers for issues sold monthly, as they continue to plummet,....well, i think when the economy is bad, the best strategy is to go with what works, NOT try to go with something extrememly controversial. (that has split the fan base and is so devisive among spidey fans.)

 

[imdaly]

At least some of the other characters are getting more character and their history back...if Spidey flashes them his face, that is.

Things in this reboot can't get much worse, imo, but they are getting cornier and cheesier.

I almost wonder if JQ has his next reboot planned already, two years down the road, like he did before?

BND is old and has run its course to no-where (no progression rule) already.

Although, with such low numbers for issues sold monthly, as they continue to plummet,....well, i think when the economy is bad, the best strategy is to go with what works, NOT try to go with something extrememly controversial. (that has split the fan base and is so devisive among spidey fans.)

They're still in the Top 15 of the month (#12 and #13 last month), though. The sales of the comics industry-wide are dwindling. In fact, in the top 25 last month there were one of only 5 comics that grew in circulation compared to the previous issue...one of them being Amazing Spider-Man #588.

 

[farmernudie]

^ IMDALY.....Well, yeh, a bunch of "titles" are in the top 15 with LOW numbers. Nothing to brag about tho with any of them, or try to angle it like Spidey is doing good.

Slott, again, for the hundreth time at one point predicted it would not go below 80's...and it was a big shock BACK THEN before the economy went south...now it is below 60's!! I can admit the industry is struggling right now and Spidey is too, right along with it.

My point was, if you re-read it, is that during trying ecomomic times, it's prolly not a good idea to go changing up the formula of ANY PRODUCT
...especially if your CHANGE is DEVISIVE and CONTROVERSIAL...!?!?

RIGHT??????

Spidey had a strong fan base before. MArvel was successful in getting many of us long term BUYERS (issues and TPB's) to stop buying. Period.
I want to buy a Spidey product...i repeat I WANT TO SPEND MY MONEY ON SPIDEY....but they offer me, the long time consumer right now, NOTHING...spidey wise. I don't like an event driven, out of character, alternate spider-man. Those that do..fine.

 

[imdaly]

I do understand your point. And I can definitely SEE your point, too. I just happen to disagree with it. It's a tough call either way.

In my way of thinking, it's in times like this where you have to do things to generate extra excitement and interest in order to tell your readers "When push comes to shove and you have to pick a book to drop, here's something new and exciting to keep you wanting to stay with our book". Now's a PERFECT time to switch things up a bit, IMO.

If Marvel wanted to stand back and be careful to not stir the pot too much we wouldn't see BND, we wouldn't see Norman Osborn as head of H.A.M.M.E.R., we wouldn't see Tony Stark on the run from the government, we wouldn't see a Red Hulk, we wouldn't see Wolverine's son, we wouldn't see Thor banished from Asgard, and we most certainly would still see Steve Rogers breathing behind a Captain America mask.

While I understand the frame of mind to avoid controversial moves in a time of dropping sales, I would argue the old saying that "controversy sells".

Now, I knowwww that you'll argue that this particular controversy is nothing but harmful to the book and it's readers, but I disagree. I feel we have just as many people checking out the book for the first time as we do people leaving the book. New blood to the book has brought new blood to the registers. And I'll point to the sales to prove that.

You'll make a good argument about Spidey feeling like he's in his own little part of the Marvel U this past year, and for the most part I can agree with that. But I'm of the opinion that he needed that for a little while, because for a good stretch there, it felt like his book was just another Avengers book. This book in the past year has finally got back to showing us that Spidey has a life outside of the suit. He has friends that aren't superheroes. He still struggles with everyday things just like you and I do.

Y'know...he's someone we can relate to.

I come right out and say it: I can relate more with somebody, who in a fit of extreme desperation and with the person I love the most backing me up, might do something completely uncharacteristic of my normal self that everyone knows better than I can somebody who lives in a tower with other superheroes with his aunt and wife and doesn't really seem to have much of any outside friends anymore.


And for the record, only 4 books surpassed 80k sales last month. In a world where Norman Osborn is King of the World, the Ultimate Universe is coming to an "end", Batman is Dead, the X-Men are at war, Marvel's space characters are at war, and Superman is doing something with a New Krypton (y'know, the comic companies keeping things safe and non-controversial )...only 4 books hit 80k+ sales last month. Do you think anyone could've expected that??

 

[farmernudie]

^Well...i agree with the part that Spidey shouldn't be an avenger....maybe help them out once in awhile on special occasions.....but not a full time Avenger living in their Tower.

The thing is with that too....he isn't written in character over in that title really either. They use him as a slapstick lightweight role. He throws a couple punches, tells some jokes...and tada!....Spidey was in an issue of Avengers again...but to what important purpose is he actually there??

 

[Galactus]

but to what important purpose is he actually there??

To help sell the comic book

 

[kguillou]

I agree that Bendis uses Spidey a bit too much as a slapstick character instead of a valuable contributing member. Let's face it, with Spidey's experience he should basically be leading the team. Does anybody remember the Spiderman TAS episode "Secret Wars" where he lead a team consisting of FF4, Storm, Ironman and captain america? Now THAT is how spiderman should be written! lol

 

[Dragon]

http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Tom_Brevoort/

should never be surprised by how certain readers react to some of the stories we publish, but I always am. I underestimate, or forget, the desire to ascribe Machiavellian motive to our actions, and the way the readers sometimes react to their favorite creators as though they were the characters—wanting to classify them each as White Hats or Black Hats depending on their own particular take on their work. I did it too, back when I was still only a reader and young and foolish and thought I knew more than I really did.

But seriously, folks, do any of you really believe that Brian Bendis unilaterally decided to have Spider-Man unmask himself to his fellow New Avengers without talking to anybody else about it?

I’m the editor of NEW AVENGERS. And I’m the editor who oversees AMAZING SPIDER-MAN. So right there, there’s an automatic level of coordination. Beyond that, this was all discussed at one of our Editorial Retreats—directly between Brian, myself, Steve Wacker and Dan Slott who was also in attendance. And the information was thereafter relayed to the rest of the ASM web-head braintrust.

So no, this wasn’t Brian somehow flipping the bird to the Spidey guys. It wasn’t an editorial commentary on “One More Day” or the thrice-monthly ASM. And it wasn’t some stealth operation that was snuck onto the racks without anybody knowing about it. Just think about it for two seconds—really, how likely is that? Really?

Also, since we’re talking about it, Peter revealing his face to the Avengers doesn’t negate the reason for “One More Day” or the choices he made therein. Spidey needed his identity erased from the minds of the world, but he was always comfortable with those heroes closest to him knowing about it—whether those people were Daredevil or the Black Cat or whomever. Showing Luke Cage his real face isn’t the same thing as showing it to everybody the world, after all. THAT’S the part he needed a take-back on.

More later.

Tom B

These comments from Brevoort reflect exactly what's wrong with Marvel. The writers and editors aren't wrong, even when they're wrong.

The fans are foolish and shouldn't look for the writers and editors to do their job- which they're being paid very well to do.

It isn't as if these guys are given a few hours to get the job done. They're given months. And the input of a number of "professional" people to go over the content of these stories. And Slott doesn't realize that he made a mistake in "explaining" the time rift AFTER the issue is released? This isn't a hobby for them. It's their livelihood. Doing it properly should be the priority, not an afterthought. When they screw-up they should be coming down on each other, not the fans who point out that they screwed up.Why did Stan and crew come up with the No-prize? They were acknowledging with good humor that they make mistakes and were saying that they were acccountable to the fans for it. They work for us. Not the other way around.

As for Spidey revealing his identity, he wasn't ALWAYS comfortable with the heroes closest to him knowing it. Nor should he be. The heroes that have access to him can also be criminals, subject to manipulation, nutjobs or as we learned in Civil War, simply jerks who would betray him. John Q Citizen isn't really in a position to hurt Spidey. The heroes who have close contact with him are.

 

[stillanerd]

These comments from Brevoort reflect exactly what's wrong with Marvel. The writers and editors aren't wrong, even when they're wrong.

The fans are foolish and shouldn't look for the writers and editors to do their job- which they're being paid very well to do.

It isn't as if these guys are given a few hours to get the job done. They're given months. And the input of a number of "professional" people to go over the content of these stories. And Slott doesn't realize that he made a misteake in "explaining" the time rift AFTER the issue is released? This isn't a hobby for them. It's their livelihood. Doing it properly should be the priority, not an afterthought. And when they screw-up they should be coming down on each other, not the fans who point out that they screwed up.Why did Stan and crew come up with the No-prize? They were acknowledging with good humor that they make mistakes and were saying that they were acccountable to the fans for it. They work for us. Not the other way around.

Well said.

As for Spidey revealing his identity, he wasn't ALWAYS comfortable with the heroes closest to him knowing it. Nor should he be. The heroes that have access to him can also be criminals, subject to manipulation, nutjobs or as we learned in Civil War, simply jerks who would betray him. John Q Citizen isn't really in a position to hurt Spidey. The heroes who have close contact with him are.

They tried to get around that in issue #591 by having Reed suggest to Spider-Man that the FF will come up with their own separate "firewalls" to prevent anyone from finding out from them about Spidey's true identity. But even so, that makes it all the more ridiculous what Spider-Man does in New Avengers #51 (which apparently, in comic book chronology is supposed to take place after issue #591) since Pete unmasks in that issue with a minimal of fuss and no guarantees like the FF made. Likewise, he makes the case in issue #591 why he shouldn't--citing specific examples of what could happen and mentioning New Avengers teammates by name. Whether it was Bendis not being told how the "psychic blindspot" worked or him doing his own thing, it's clearly a case of editors not doing their job and correcting things BEFORE publication.

 

[reallyoldspideyfan]

Hello,

I must add that the "writers" reason for Peter unmasking is the fact that he is the superhero that is a "common man", who makes mistakes. It seems likely that he made this deal but will ultimately mess it up. This seems like the first logical step.

DN

 

[farmernudie]

This is like the movie Groundhogs Day....Pete is stuck in a loop...doing the same dumb thing over and over (revealing himself to groups of people with little thought)....oy....

Meanwhile, The Devil is tryng to cover it up, and the "Mystery Wiper"....and Reed may throw in some triple ply wipe-age too! Just Swell!

 

[iloveclones]

No, watching you try to get catchphrases to catch on, that's like watching Groundhog Day. Why don't you just combine all of them into one: Who's wiping Charlie Brown's clown shoes? Joephisto?

 

[farmernudie]

ILC: Who's wiping Charlie Brown's clown shoes? Joephisto?

LOL..!...after a long day of stress and saving lives and dealing with people of all sorts (nurse)....i REALLY needed that LAUGH..!...Thanks!! Really.

Although...Clown shoes...and Joephisto I've never actually ever said.

Maybe..something more like....Who's mysteriously wiping Ultimate Ultimate Petey Brown's Swiss Cheese 3X?