ASM #600! 104 Pages! No reprints! No ads! Now... with CAKE!

[random_havoc]

I wasn't happy with the reset either, but we got some good stuff out of it. Better than Sins Past and The Other.

I completely agree with you that Sins Past and The Other were atrocious, but the solution to terrible stories isn't to introduce an even worse story, or to proverbially throw away the baby with the bath water.

 

[hippie_hunter]

There's great stuff happening in Invincible Iron Man and it's being written by one of my favorite modern writers, but I'm just not interested in Iron Man/Tony Stark. I tried it for about a year, but honestly just lost interest. It's just one of those cases. Surely you have some characters that you just don't have interest in?

I hate Vixen with the passion of Corps' hate for Hal Jordan

Well, like I said, some people take it more seriously then just entertainment value. Silly? Sure, it is a little silly, but we all have things that we take more seriously then we should. For some people, it's comics and character that they've grown up reading and loving. It's simply one of those things of human nature

I take comics very seriously as well. But frankly, I just don't like being bitter over a hobby of mine or else I won't be able to enjoy it.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I take comics very seriously as well. But frankly, I just don't like being bitter over a hobby of mine or else I won't be able to enjoy it.

Well, you've evolved I suppose

 

[iloveclones]

3) I am happy you've come back to debate this issue with me, but I can't help but think that maybe the reason you're making such sweeping assumptions and seem so irritated might have something to do with my previously pointing out how you lost the debate on a previous thread of mine when we first discussed how pretty much everything significant in the BND stories could have been done without having done the atrocious OMD story.

I was going to ask you what this Great Debate was that you keep claiming you win was. But then I thought, nah, I'll look for myself. And what I basically found was this:

Could BND have been done with a Married Spidey? which you started. The initial question was the only thing that wasn't completely weighted towards what you wanted to hear. It was never going to be any kind of "fair" argument and basically degenerated into exactly what you could have predicted after the first post: an opportunity for people who have no intention of reading this book to agree with one another and say "good point" as though anyone actually made a good point. Dan and TMOB were completely high to even step foot in that thread.

Just wondering, could BND have been done with Spidey still married to Mary Jane?

I have refused to read anything Spidey since OMD (and will continue to do so until Spidey and MJ are returned to their married, pre-OMD), status but have heard that the new BND stuff is very good, but could just as easily have been done with him still married. Is that true?

P.s. I think of OMD and other such continuity disruptions as insults to me as a reader hence why I won't read spidey anymore. Plus, it was completely unnecessary, out of character for spidey, and lazy writing.

You could have stopped the thread after post #2, which pretty much answered the question:

Depends on who you ask I guess.

BND lover = No.
OMD/BND loathers = Yes.

Well, maybe not for every aspect, but they are doing some stories were Peter goes on dates I think. So for those, definitely not

This pretty much sums up what I think you wanted to accomplish in this thread; get everyone who agrees with your viewpoint in one place and point out that the numbers are in your favor. That is not winning an argument. That is like saying my favorite flavor of ice cream is raspberry and daring anyone to disprove it:

Thanks for the input. I think everyone here has agreed except TMOB and Dan Slott. Dan's arguments are either totally mistake or blatantly self-contradictory with the claims that OMD didn't change previous stories and TMOB has to oversimplify or assume that the writers know some great problem solving secret they have up their sleeves.

I think it's safe to say that you, Michelle, and the majority here are correct.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Well, you've evolved I suppose

Yes....yes I am.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Wow! Hasn't this little promotional thread just exploded!

I was just thinking one thing while reading it all. Dan keeps responding to the negative criticism, and really doesn't respond to the positive. This only reinforces the "negative behavior." Kind of says, "If you want to get Dan's attention, just say how much you hate what he's putting out."

BTW, I HIGHLY recommend seeing "Orphan," especially before the ending is given away. Good movie!

 

[random_havoc]

I was going to ask you what this Great Debate was that you keep claiming you win was. But then I thought, nah, I'll look for myself. And what I basically found was this:

Could BND have been done with a Married Spidey? which you started. The initial question was the only thing that wasn't completely weighted towards what you wanted to hear. It was never going to be any kind of "fair" argument and basically degenerated into exactly what you could have predicted after the first post: an opportunity for people who have no intention of reading this book to agree with one another and say "good point" as though anyone actually made a good point. Dan and TMOB were completely high to even step foot in that thread.



You could have stopped the thread after post #2, which pretty much answered the question:



This pretty much sums up what I think you wanted to accomplish in this thread; get everyone who agrees with your viewpoint in one place and point out that the numbers are in your favor. That is not winning an argument. That is like saying my favorite flavor of ice cream is raspberry and daring anyone to disprove it:

3 things:

1) I was about to go back and delete a previous reference to that debate, because upon reflection I realized that suggesting that Dan was back here debating based on that debate having gone against him pretty presumptuous. But since people have obviously seen that comment now I'll just apologize for presuming to know your motivation Dan. My apologies Dan. That was particularly out of order since I had just tried to point out that it wasn't right for you to assume things about me.

2) in that thread Dan had caught himself in his own logic. He first tried to defend OMD by agreeing with the Marvel braintrust's official stance that OMD didn't trample all over spidey's previous 20 years of continuity. But then he argued that the BND stories COULDN'T have been done with a married spidey because having him married would have made it inherently different. Hence, according to Dan's own logic, the stories are inherently different if Peter's married/unmarried, which means that even by his own logic they indeed DID stomp all over 20 years of continuity, OR he can keep claiming they didn't stomp on continuity which by default means that the BND stories also wouldn't have been changed by Peter being married. Either way Dan lost, it just depends on which side of the argument he wants to lose (again, by his own logic).

3) Yes I came in with an idea as to which way was true regarding my original question, but that's no different from when one approaches a topic with a hypothesis and then goes about trying to prove it or disprove it. At the time I hadn't read any of the BND stuff and so my question was asked with sincerity, no matter whether you try to read some sinister motive into or not.

 

[Dan_Slott]

Allow me to address a couple of points:

With the points you've chosen to address, you seem to be skipping the main one that I brought up in the first place. So here it is again:

Not at all, but thanks for taking one tiny relatively insignificant line out of all my argumentation and addressing that rather than the important points.

random_havoc,
I'm sorry, but it's NOT an insignificant point. I think it goes to the heart of it. There are some people out there that just plain HATE on ASM post-OMD, people who actively LOOK and WANT things to be wrong and will bend any piece of minutia to try to make their point and justify their fan-rage. Am I suppose to believe there's any possible chance of getting a fair and balanced review from someone who has "Proudly still haven't bought a single Spider-Man issue since OMD" as their signature 50+ issues later? Really?

My point was how the bickering takes place. As with many things the same idea can be either good or bad depending on how well it's handled. Of course there should still be interplay between the two, but frankly the writing regards to Peter and JJJ has a few times made me embarassed to read he acts so childish. There's witty insulting, and there's childish insulting. Big difference.

Bull. No offense, but I'm calling BS on that. You're saying it's okay for Spider-Man and JJJ to still bicker with each other, but ONLY if it falls into certain shades of bickering? Step back and look at that again. Spider-Man and JJJ bicker with each other all the time. It's an iconic part of the Spider-Man legacy-- as integral to the series as Spidey's wall crawling, web-shooting, and wisecracking. But you are so filled with post-OMD rage, you are looking for ANY reason to split hairs and hate on this book.

And Peter should be PROGRESSED enough into a mature character to be displaying the former rather than the latter.

So you're saying it's ONLY okay if Peter and JJJ bicker with each other in a "witty" way as opposed to a "childish" way. What? Is this a Shavian sitting room comedy all of the sudden? What? Is this the Algonquin Round Table? This's an ABSURD argument. Are you telling me that you don't know adults who get on each other's nerves and act childlishly around each other?

Are you telling me that your bias against OMD hasn't colored your perception of ANYTHING the new creative teams have done post-OMD? Don't you think your take on the bickering relationship between Spider-Man and Jonah to be a little bit absurd-- and VERY symptomatic of a bias you might have?

All right. Onto your new points:

...So the counter-argument that almost everything that's been done so far could've still be done with a married spidey is pretty darn well justified.

Justification is a personal thing. I'm not going to argue with you over what you personally feel is justified and what is not. What I am going to talk about is FEASIBILITY and REALITY. The book is where the book is. We're going forward. It would be nice if you could look forward too, instead of looking back on a story that took place over 50+ issues ago. I am very proud of the work that myself and the new team have produced starting with our run at ASM #546. I am even more proud of where we are going post ASM #600.

It must be pretty convenient for you to just try and write off all of us who keep referring back to OMD, by simply saying we're all essentially just whiners who focus too much on that one thing...

For those who choose to constantly complain about a story from over 50+ issues ago, I don't see anything convenient about it. Convenience? No. Personally, when I read those kinds of comments—with many of them just the same thing repeated over and over again for over 18 months-- I feel the odd moment of frustration. Sorry if my reaction to that came off too harsh or in any way offended you.

I am happy you've come back to debate this issue with me...

I don't really see this as much of a debate. I just pointed out the absurdity of one of your statements, have held you to it, and am pretty much telling you how I feel about the subject as a whole. There's no right or wrong here. There's no "victory" or "defeat". There is the way two different people feel about a certain subject.

...but I can't help but think that maybe the reason you're making such sweeping assumptions and seem so irritated might have something to do with my previously pointing out how you lost the debate on a previous thread of mine...

Swear to God, I have no recollection about what you're talking about. My plate is pretty darn full and I don't keep track of old internet message board threads. If I did, I wouldn't get anything done.

The fact that I found OMD insulting to my values and to be an incredibly crappy story in general (see a previous posters insightful comments on massive mischaracterization) DOES NOT MEAN that I am incapable of being unbiased in reading future issues....

Read that again and say that with a straight face.

The fact that my sig says what it says does not mean I can't be unbiased either... Marvel put out an offensive and stupid storyline, Marvel still has NOT justified having done so even according to their own claimed motivations for having done it, therefore I will not financially support it. The sig means I have values that I stick by, not that I am incapable of being unbiased. It's my... hopes that Marvel won't do anything else as equally stupid/offensive in the future with beloved characters.

Now read that again and say that with a straight face.

And, to Dan, THAT is why I won't support that title with my money, hence my signature.

Support it with your money or don't. That's your choice. What I'm asking of you, as someone who's a reviewer who is supposed to review things on their own merits, is that you keep an open mind-- that you TRY to read the current run of Amazing Spider-Man for what's it's creators ARE writing.

Ever see the movie HOOSIERS? This is kinda' what I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0nv0UxI0xY
Replace the phrase "We want Jimmy" with any of the Anti-OMD talking points that are still being repeated 50+ issues later... And the Gene Hackman speech is pretty much how I feel. From the second ASM #546 came out, we've been your ASM team. Support us or don't, that's up to you.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I completely agree with you that Sins Past and The Other were atrocious, but the solution to terrible stories isn't to introduce an even worse story, or to proverbially throw away the baby with the bath water.

Even though I was more emotionally charged by One More Day, I find myself utterly disturbed (and not in a good way) by Sins Past.

 

[BlackLantern]

as far as The Other, I did like that Peter did come out stronger for it and that he ended up having organic webbing, but beating him within an inch of his life...losing an eye and even an arm I think was a bit out there

 

[JewishHobbit]

And do you really think that the deal with Mephisto and the alterations that Spider-Man and MJ's deal made to the timeline of the Marvel Universe won't be addressed in the near future? Peter Parker: Paparazzi and New Ways to Die hinted that Peter and MJ know something to some extent. The consequences will most likely be written eventually.

Honestly, no... I don't expect any repercussions. With how much backlash has come thanks to OMD I expect Marvel to hide their tail between their legs and run and never look back. A bit cowardly but I just see it going that way.

As for waiting around for some type of repercussion to justify our 'sticking to the title' though the current status quo of the character is an insult to many of us... how long is expected? It's been 54 issues thus far with absolutely no sign of any repercussions. That's a long time for fans who want repercussions of the horrible OMD before reading again to wait. That's a thrown away $162 at $3 an issue (though I know there's been a few $4 and $5 issues in there). Add that to whatever Spider-Man family comics, mini's, Annuals, etc.... and you have a lot of money just thrown in the trash waiting for those repercussions to justify the OMD story.

To play Devil's Advocate, a wisecracking, married, and public Spider-Man could have been done with this creative team.

And I wish it was. I'm sure I would have loved it without the baggage they had to begin with that's kept me off the book. Can you imagine what Spidey's sales would be if they chose to do these creative teams WITHOUT OMD first? I don't know for certain but I kinda assumed they did the awsome creative teams for BND to try and make up for their losses on OMD... which is a crappy way to do it if that was the case.

 

[random_havoc]

Even though I was more emotionally charged by One More Day, I find myself utterly disturbed (and not in a good way) by Sins Past.

Amen to that. The reason I was able to keep reading Spidey past that arc though was that, after that arc concluded, I could read future arcs and there was pretty much no mention or repercussions from it. Therefore I could ignore that horrible plot.
Unfortunately I can't do the same with OMD because it's repercussions are ever-present.

 

[JewishHobbit]

as far as The Other, I did like that Peter did come out stronger for it and that he ended up having organic webbing, but beating him within an inch of his life...losing an eye and even an arm I think was a bit out there

I'm the odd one out. I actually really liked The Other... and for the most part, I liked Sins Past as well. If it was Peter's kids instead of Norman's the storyline would have been classic for me.

See... I can embrace The Other and Sins Past and move beyond the problems of those books... I really try. I really really try to just accept what comes and status quos and all that. That should really say something about OMD.

 

[BlackLantern]

Amen to that. The reason I was able to keep reading Spidey past that arc though was that, after that arc concluded, I could read future arcs and there was pretty much no mention or repercussions from it. Therefore I could ignore that horrible plot.
Unfortunately I can't do the same with OMD because it's repercussions are ever-present.

meaning you can't stare at the redhead every fifth panel??

i kid, i kid

 

[Themanofbat]

I wanna stop playing here...

 

[Dan_Slott]

Wow! Hasn't this little promotional thread just exploded!

I was just thinking one thing while reading it all. Dan keeps responding to the negative criticism, and really doesn't respond to the positive. This only reinforces the "negative behavior." Kind of says, "If you want to get Dan's attention, just say how much you hate what he's putting out."

BTW, I HIGHLY recommend seeing "Orphan," especially before the ending is given away. Good movie!

Phaedrus,
You're right. This is what I get for answering a post from a page back without reading the rest of the thread.
Since my SHE-HULK days, this has been a problem I've had-- responding to negative posts more than positive ones. Sorry. It's just one of my many, many, many flaws. Sorry.

I really DO appreciate all the kind words and well wishes. It's just the way I'm wired. I don't know how to respond to compliments without getting embarrassed. And I find it hard to stand back and not say anything when someone says something that I find to be unfair, off the mark, or patently untrue. I like to think I'm good about ignoring posts that are flat out insulting-- when they're about me. But I will jump in if I see one that is insulting to someone I work with. All of this means that I DO respond/reward negative posts with attention-- and often don't comment at all to the positive ones. And again, I'm sorry.

As I've worked on bigger books with bigger audiences, that's meant a GREATER number of posts about my work on both sides. And about year or so ago-- with the way I'm wired-- that meant I was responding to more and more negative posts-- and coming off like a total crank. My solution to that has been very simple: stop posting. You really don't see that many posts from me online anymore-- except for my message board on Jinxworld.

Some of that has changed in the past couple weeks as I started my own Twitter account. Over there I've been having nothing BUT positive interactions with fans. And I think it's because of the nature of Twitter.
A lot of people come on message boards to vent. When someone takes the time and effort to follow someone on Twitter, it's usually 'cause they LIKE what that person does.

Anyway...

Long story short: Sorry I haven't been responding to the positive posts! I DO APPRECIATE ALL of the support! If you want to see more of my happier and grateful side, you check me out at:
http://***********/DanSlott

 

[Themanofbat]

I just wanna add that I was reading the adventures of a single Spider-Man for 12 years, and then a married one for 20 years, a marriage that was so obviously FORCED at the time because Marvel wanted to capitalize on what Stan Lee was doing to the strip, seeing as it was getting publicity at the time (they had a guy dressed as Spidey & MJ get married at Shea Stadium before a Mets game in the summer of 1987), and while there have been both good and bad stories during both eras, I'm finding myself to be currently liking the new direction and style... these are comics, and wild crazy things happen in comics... sometimes uncharacteristic things happen in comics... do you think I approved and liked the idea of Peter letting a known killer like Venom go everytime they fought? Of course not... it was very irresponsible... but I didn't pull out the Moral Majority card and cried "FOUL!!!" to god... ya know why? THESE ARE FRIGGIN' COMICS!!!!... so please, to the guy that spewed off the higher moral ground... save me the religious soapbox rant and give it to the people that feel the need to be saved... or at least, save it for when "real" tragedy happens in our very real world.

 

[BlackLantern]

well Dan, I appreciate your and the ASM teams work and again pass my thanks to Mark Waid and staff for 24/7

 

[iloveclones]

Dan Slott is a hack [BLACKOUT]according to some people, but not me. His work came into my radar on She-Hulk, and I've been a fan since. I was over the moon when it was announced he was the writer on Spidey. Spider-Man/Human Torch should be enshrined alongside Byrne's X-Men and Frank Miller's DD[/BLACKOUT]


He knows nothing about continuity [BLACKOUT]that couldn't fit into a couple of rail cars worth of comics. Anyone who has followed his Marvel work over the years knows how he can take a trivial point from he past and weave it into a wonderful story.[/BLACKOUT]

I don't know why he keeps coming around here. [BLACKOUT]I'd rather him be working 24/7 on my favorite web-head than wasting time around here with us dunderheads.[/BLACKOUT]

There. Now, if as I planned, [BLACKOUT]Dan doesn't know how to operate the blackouts, I should get a nice response......[/BLACKOUT]bwahahahahahah

 

[random_havoc]

Just wanted to drop a quick post that I will get a reply to your comments Dan, but my wife is pulling away my attention right now.

Later y'all!

 

[JewishHobbit]

I just wanna add that I was reading the adventures of a single Spider-Man for 12 years, and then a married one for 20 years, a marriage that was so obviously FORCED at the time because Marvel wanted to capitalize on what Stan Lee was doing to the strip, seeing as it was getting publicity at the time (they had a guy dressed as Spidey & MJ get married at Shea Stadium before a Mets game in the summer of 1987), and while there have been both good and bad stories during both eras, I'm finding myself to be currently liking the new direction and style... these are comics, and wild crazy things happen in comics... sometimes uncharacteristic things happen in comics... do you think I approved and liked the idea of Peter letting a known killer like Venom go everytime they fought? Of course not... it was very irresponsible... but I didn't pull out the Moral Majority card and cried "FOUL!!!" to god... ya know why? THESE ARE FRIGGIN' COMICS!!!!... so please, to the guy that spewed off the higher moral ground... save me the religious soapbox rant and give it to the people that feel the need to be saved... or at least, save it for when "real" tragedy happens in our very real world.

The bold.... is one sentance!!! Periods my friend... must.... use... periods! The Venom statement doesn't really measure up because he did stop Venom during all the earlier stuff but then after they made their deal it was a struggle of conscious for Spider-Man, which was very interesting and still in character. Yes, he's letting a killer go, but he's also saving his family while doing it... ALL OF THIS FAMILY.... not just his decrepid old aunt at the cost of his wife. And he went back on that decision time and again and went after him, such as in the Lethal Protector mini and a few other appearances since then. It was a bit shady but still in character. And it never influenced everything that took place 20 years prior to the stories and everything since. It really is NOTHING like OMD. The only thing I can think of that may be comparable is DC's Crisis stuff (which I wasn't a reader of, so I can't say that for certain). Even the Hal Jordan stuff didn't effect the issues previous to his fall.

And I hate the "These are just comics" argument. You (not you, but people in general) say that like they're just some scrap of paper lying on the side of the road and not the $3-$5 per pop we're forced to pay to read the books we want these days. And not only that, but people say "they're just comics" like they're insignifigant. So when someone then says "well then I guess comics mean more to me than you" they usually start arguing how that's not the case or some such. It can't be both ways depending on the argument. The argument never really holds water for anything.

Again, this isn't directed at you MoB... we've had our debates over this topic enough to know where we stand I think and I'm trying to keep my disdain for OMD more limited out of respect for Dan being a decent guy... but I still hate seeing that type of phrase thrown around so often in this argument.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I'm the odd one out. I actually really liked The Other... and for the most part, I liked Sins Past as well. If it was Peter's kids instead of Norman's the storyline would have been classic for me.

See... I can embrace The Other and Sins Past and move beyond the problems of those books... I really try. I really really try to just accept what comes and status quos and all that. That should really say something about OMD.

Norman sleeping with Gwen is just wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I feel like throwing up a little bit whenever I hear about it. To quote Corp, it breaks all limits of wrongness.

Seriously Mr. Slott, if you read this can you please take the chance to retcon this away. Please do this and I will never even consider dropping Amazing Spider-Man like I did after One More Day and will continue to buy every issue of it until the day I die, even if they cost $9.99. I'll even buy back issues. Anything you want!

I mean god dammit I freaking hate Sins Past

 

[JewishHobbit]

Norman sleeping with Gwen is just wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I feel like throwing up a little bit whenever I hear about it. To quote Corp, it breaks all limits of wrongness.

Seriously Mr. Slott, if you read this can you please take the chance to retcon this away. Please do this and I will never even consider dropping Amazing Spider-Man like I did after One More Day and will continue to buy every issue of it until the day I die, even if they cost $9.99. I'll even buy back issues. Anything you want!

I mean god dammit I freaking hate Sins Past

Yeah... that got me pretty good. It made me sick and I hated it. But it didn't really impact anything else so I was able to read on beyond that... and it didn't go against Spider-Man's character at all. I'd still love to learn that it was some type of mental implant or something that had MJ suggest Norman as the father and that Peter was the real father but... if Marvel REFUSES to let Peter grow up enough to be married (though he's in perfectly fine marrage age) got forbid they aren't going to let him have kids.

The Grey Goblin was interesting for me though. I still wish he'd come back... granted... I wouldn't read it due to the current Spider-Man mess and I, but it'd be nice. I hate to see any continuity dismissed and ignored.

 

[hippie_hunter]

No! Just make the Grey Goblin and Sarah go away. Oh god the images of Norman and Gwen

 

[Themanofbat]

The bold.... is one sentance!!! Periods my friend... must.... use... periods! The Venom statement doesn't really measure up because he did stop Venom during all the earlier stuff but then after they made their deal it was a struggle of conscious for Spider-Man, which was very interesting and still in character. Yes, he's letting a killer go, but he's also saving his family while doing it... ALL OF THIS FAMILY.... not just his decrepid old aunt at the cost of his wife. And he went back on that decision time and again and went after him, such as in the Lethal Protector mini and a few other appearances since then. It was a bit shady but still in character. And it never influenced everything that took place 20 years prior to the stories and everything since. It really is NOTHING like OMD. The only thing I can think of that may be comparable is DC's Crisis stuff (which I wasn't a reader of, so I can't say that for certain). Even the Hal Jordan stuff didn't effect the issues previous to his fall.

And I hate the "These are just comics" argument. You (not you, but people in general) say that like they're just some scrap of paper lying on the side of the road and not the $3-$5 per pop we're forced to pay to read the books we want these days. And not only that, but people say "they're just comics" like they're insignifigant. So when someone then says "well then I guess comics mean more to me than you" they usually start arguing how that's not the case or some such. It can't be both ways depending on the argument. The argument never really holds water for anything.

Again, this isn't directed at you MoB... we've had our debates over this topic enough to know where we stand I think and I'm trying to keep my disdain for OMD more limited out of respect for Dan being a decent guy... but I still hate seeing that type of phrase thrown around so often in this argument.

Periods? Is it that time of the mon.... err, nevemind.

I'm a guy that has invested 35+ years to reading comics every week... and even before then, I read old back issues of Archie, DC Romance, Denis the Menace & the odd western comics that my grand-mother had kicking around the house... and from 1978 to today, I have taken "continuity" seriously... if it happened, no matter how crappy the story might have been, it happened. Talk to me about any Marvel and/or DC character, and I can discuss at length for hours... I have TONS of "useless" (useful???) comic book knowledge in my head... and having said that... "YES!!! THEY ARE JUST COMIC BOOKS!!!"

Comic books are obviously very important to me, but I won't hate people because of what they read (I'm just glad people are reading them), and I think that some of these terrible arguments (not with you JW) are silly when you look at the reasons behind them... and they get REALLY silly when people start throwing the "you're not a fan like me" if you like the current direction nonsense... I don't get it?

Comics are my life at times... especially when I look at the time involved and the financial investment... but at the end of the day... the "heated debates" are just about comic book stories, and really nothing to get so riled up about...