Atheism : Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[hopefuldreamer]

Here’s my stance:

First of all, thankyou for sharing that story.

As what I'd call a 'newbie' atheist after living most of my life as an agnostic who just sort of 'went along' with societies assumption that God exists, I have found that one of the hardest knee jerk responses to shake off is the feelings of gratitude towards something out of this world when something wonderful happens.

The phrase 'Thank God' often pops into my head, or I find myself begging 'please' in a strange form of prayer to no one.

I mean, I know there is no harm in it, but it feels like a 'just in case someone IS listening' reaction, which stems from the last little bit of belief conditioning from my upbringing.

I believe in Miracles in the sense that sometimes, incredible things happen. Against all odds. And that when times seem at their worst, there is always still hope... Because you never know what could happen no matter what the chances.

But I don't see why those incredible moments are proof that God exists. As though anything that falls outside of the 'average expectation' bracket is thanks to God.

All you have to do is look at all the improbabilities that come together every day in nature, in science, to see that the rare and unexpected outcomes we call 'miracles' kind of happen ALL the time on levels we can't see. From the workings of our bodies to the infinite events of the universe.

It's wonderful, don't get me wrong.

But it doesn't show me God.

Because if there is no god, then surely there is no afterlife ergo when we die are consciousness ceases to exist. Now that is an extremely worrying thing for me. It’s a simple concept but also simultaneously a hard one to imagine. No more thoughts, not more feelings, nothing. Eternal sleep. Every time I try and imagine that I start to feel a bit sick. It’s akin to brain death which they say is a "fate worse than death." This idea of an eternal sleep is a fate worse than hell. I'd rather feeling everlasting pain than lose my consciousness and my ability to think, my ability to exist. It makes everything seem so petty and pointless.[/COLOR][/FONT]

I used to feel the same as you. That there was nothing more terrifying than no longer existing...

But embracing Atheism kind of got rid of that fear for me.

The more you start looking at everything in terms of science, the less importance you start to hold over your own consciousness. The universe is so much bigger than you or more. And we are just so lucky to have the little bit of life we have.

I am quite happy to have lived, to have seen all the beauty in the world, felt all it's wonderful emotions and experiences, leave a memory of who I am within family, friends etc, and then end. Just finish.

It feels right to me somehow.

 

[Dr.]

The following is infuriating. This teacher, and that school district in general has failed these students. This teacher claims he gives evolution its "fair shake" and yet none of his students appear to have ANY grasp of the mechanics of it all, and though I know this clip is short, it doesn't appear that he makes any attempt to respond with an explanation.

...People are free to their religious beliefs but non-scientific ideas do not belong in a science class or curriculum.

The teacher says he gives both evolution and creationism a "fair shake." Problem: as a science teacher, it's not his business to give any religious idea a fair shake. That takes place at the church or temple or mosque. The flat-Earth theory and the stork theory of human reproduction don't deserve fair shakes in public schools either. There's a specific curricula devised by experts in the field and professional educators. Teach it.

 

[redhawk23]

The teacher says he gives both evolution and creationism a "fair shake." Problem: as a science teacher, it's not his business to give any religious idea a fair shake. That takes place at the church or temple or mosque. The flat-Earth theory and the stork theory of human reproduction don't deserve fair shakes in public schools either. There's a specific curricula devised by experts in the field and professional educators. Teach it.

Precisely.

 

[Bill]

I was brought up a roman catholic and went to a Roman Catholic school. When I was little I was very devout and had a pretty sold knowledge of the bible. But as I grew older the concept of god began to make little sense. There were so many apparent holes that I could not fill in that my strong belief began to waver. I became agnostic and the only thing that stopped me becoming atheist was a combination of my upbringing and fear. Fear of the unknown. Because if there is no god, then surely there is no afterlife ergo when we die are consciousness ceases to exist. Now that is an extremely worrying thing for me. It’s a simple concept but also simultaneously a hard one to imagine. No more thoughts, not more feelings, nothing. Eternal sleep. Every time I try and imagine that I start to feel a bit sick. It’s akin to brain death which they say is a "fate worse than death." This idea of an eternal sleep is a fate worse than hell. I'd rather feeling everlasting pain than lose my consciousness and my ability to think, my ability to exist. It makes everything seem so petty and pointless.

Have you considered the ramifications of eternal life? Consciousness that will never, ever end?

Think about it. You could fill the entire Universe with grains of sand, and have the time to minutely contemplate every single one of them. Then go on to their atoms.

I don't know what people who subscribe to the idea of eternal life think they're going to do with it. It will never, ever end. Ever.

Do you think that after an eternity of eternities, you might want to sleep?

 

[Bill]

The teacher says he gives both evolution and creationism a "fair shake." Problem: as a science teacher, it's not his business to give any religious idea a fair shake. That takes place at the church or temple or mosque. The flat-Earth theory and the stork theory of human reproduction don't deserve fair shakes in public schools either. There's a specific curricula devised by experts in the field and professional educators. Teach it.

I didn't get the idea he knew how to properly teach Evolution, much less Science.

 

[Shemtov]

I just want to apologize for my dire prediction that this thread will get closed by the 250th post (which, in fact, was a liberal estimate). I honestly thought a discussion about religion could not survive too long on these boards. I am glad to be proven wrong.

 

[Manic]

Have you considered the ramifications of eternal life? Consciousness that will never, ever end?

Think about it. You could fill the entire Universe with grains of sand, and have the time to minutely contemplate every single one of them. Then go on to their atoms.

I don't know what people who subscribe to the idea of eternal life think they're going to do with it. It will never, ever end. Ever.

Do you think that after an eternity of eternities, you might want to sleep?

Reincarnation FTW.

 

[glorynation]

What an odd question "Atheism - Love it or Leave it" .. I personally LOVE it

 

[Bill]

Reincarnation FTW.

Reincarnation is coming back to this Universe, which will end. You will get a finite number of times to come back. What are you going to do with the rest?

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

If there is some sort of afterlife, I'd hate to be awake all the time. The only way it could really work if it is like Earth and everyone has limitations.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The notion that a bunch of apes living on a small planet in a barely explored Solar System can comprehend the entire universe is pretty outrageous.

Having said that, reincarnation does happen in nature. Most notably with stars (they die, blow up, their remains become new stars, etc). And everything is made from those stars. So, in a sense, everything will be "reincarnated" indefinitely. But your conscience probably won't be transferred to a baby squirrel.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Have you considered the ramifications of eternal life? Consciousness that will never, ever end?

Think about it. You could fill the entire Universe with grains of sand, and have the time to minutely contemplate every single one of them. Then go on to their atoms.

I don't know what people who subscribe to the idea of eternal life think they're going to do with it. It will never, ever end. Ever.

Do you think that after an eternity of eternities, you might want to sleep?

Agreed.

I think it'd be impossible not to go mad if you lived forever.

Kind of like being trapped in Limbo in Inception.

Reincarnation FTW.

Reincarnation basically means the same to me as Death if I'm honest, because your 'consciousness', your specific personality, everything that you remember that made you who you are, is still erased.

The only thing that lives on is your 'soul', and without memories, what exactly is that worth? What does a soul carry with it?

 

[the amazing fro]

Have you considered the ramifications of eternal life? Consciousness that will never, ever end?

Think about it. You could fill the entire Universe with grains of sand, and have the time to minutely contemplate every single one of them. Then go on to their atoms.

I don't know what people who subscribe to the idea of eternal life think they're going to do with it. It will never, ever end. Ever.

Do you think that after an eternity of eternities, you might want to sleep?

Sounds pretty good to me. Perhaps its because I am young. I've heard elderly people be perfectly fine about death and the permanent loss of consciousness sometimes even welcome it. Perhaps in 70 years and I have done everything I wanted to do, I shall have a different perspective. But right now, living for the whole of eternity sounds like a pretty good deal.

 

[redhawk23]

I just want to apologize for my dire prediction that this thread will get closed by the 250th post (which, in fact, was a liberal estimate). I honestly thought a discussion about religion could not survive too long on these boards. I am glad to be proven wrong.

While this thread certainly has its problems from time to time, for the most part even in heated discussion most have been able to remain at least somewhat civil. If only it could be so in the marvel/dc threads.

 

[Calvin]

I always find it odd when people say it's incomprehensible or worse than death that their consciousness might actually cease to exist when they die. What do you think was going on before you were born?

 

[Bubonic]

I just want to apologize for my dire prediction that this thread will get closed by the 250th post (which, in fact, was a liberal estimate). I honestly thought a discussion about religion could not survive too long on these boards. I am glad to be proven wrong.

Apology accepted.
And it's been 90% respectful in here as well!

Reincarnation FTW.

One thing about reincarnation that doesn't make sense to me is that it sort of implies a finite amount of beings.
If everything is reincarnated from something previously living wouldn't that mean that there was and always will be a set amount of things?

If so then it is inherently flawed.

 

[the amazing fro]

I always find it odd when people say it's incomprehensible or worse than death that their consciousness might actually cease to exist when they die. What do you think was going on before you were born?

Well I didn't actually say it was worse than death since... that is death (well a hypothesized version of it). I said it was worse than hell. The idea of the absence of consciousness if a hard to wrap my head round because I try to think "what does it feel like?" And obviously it doesn't feel like anything. An absence of feeling and of thought and of all the things I hold dear. I try to put things from my perspective to understand the experience of this black void but its impossible because how can I perceive something when I no longer exist? The greatest gift in the world is to think, to reason, to debate, to feel. Obviously, if I do die and end up in this black void it won't really affect me because I won't know I'm there, I won't exist. But that's what scares me. You compare it to before birth. Perhaps I've been to this "limbo" (for want of a better word) before but I'd rather not go again.

 

[Bubonic]

Absence of consciousness is worse than eternal torture?

The hell you smoking?!

Even though hell is a creation and I've heard there isn't even that much proof to substantiate it within the bible, from all accounts I've heard being in hell is not a fun thing, it is endless physical and psychological torture.

I take you now, tie you to a chair and start peeling strips of skin off your body, and you'll be begging for the great beyond by days end.
Now contemplate the possibility of being put in such a position, but the catch is that there is nothing beyond, no escape, no release, just vile torture after vile torture, eternal consciousness and pain... And you think for a second that this would somehow be better than just blinking out?!?!

 

[the amazing fro]

I have a very high pain threshold.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong. No consciousness would be my own personal hell. I wouldn't be conscious to witness it obviously but that's part of the point.

So what is everyone else's view on the other side of death?

 

[Bubonic]

I definitely don't believe that there is an eternal space where you just chill out. I can't make sense of it, and I don't adhere to the Abrahamic religions nor does reincarnation seem sensible.

Nothingness doesn't phase me as I wouldn't even know of it.

If I'm going to think of fantasy I'd like the afterlife to be just like this life, but a life in which I magically always make the right decisions, always progress, know true love, sex all the hotties, never know defeat and never lose the ones I care about.

And I would live out that life, die peacefully, and start over again to another amazing but different life cycle, ad infinitum. Each time my mind would be cleared of the previous life and the fallacy of the current life.

 

[the amazing fro]

I definitely don't believe that there is an eternal space where you just chill out. I can't make sense of it, and I don't adhere to the Abrahamic religions nor does reincarnation seem sensible.

Fair do's. Different strokes for different folks and all that jazz.

Nothingness doesn't phase me as I wouldn't even know of it.

How strange. This is the EXACT reason why it would phase me.

If I'm going to think of fantasy I'd like the afterlife to be just like this life, but a life in which I magically always make the right decisions, always progress, know true love, sex all the hotties, never know defeat and never lose the ones I care about.

And I would live out that life, die peacefully, and start over again to another amazing but different life cycle, ad infinitum. Each time my mind would be cleared of the previous life and the fallacy of the current life.

While certainly sounding nice doesn't the wiping of your memory mean that all that you were before hand is "dead" and this new person in the afterlife is a completely different person? This is sort of why reincarnation doesn't ring true to me. If I was a cat in my previous life, I can't remember being a cat. Everything that Cat was, died when I was born. So I in essence will die when I reincarnate into something. The memory maketh the man.
But thanks for sharing

 

[Calvin]

You know, this is actually part of the reason I call BS on how religion is supposed to make you a better person. If there's nothingness awaiting you, and your biggest fear is being erased, the truest way to prevent that in the big picture is to do something significant with your life, do something that will touch a lot of people, and cause them to want to hold you in high regard for more than just a generation. It's amazing incentive to live your life in a way that will benefit society. But if all you're doing is angling for a trip to heaven, that rings hollow and selfish to me. Especially in many christian circles where all you need to do to go to heaven is repent, and believe in god and jesus, and all will be forgiven (I know that's not all christian circles, but many I've run into, and been raised in). That's ******ed.

 

[Bubonic]

How strange. This is the EXACT reason why it would phase me.

How can nothingness phase you if nothing is simply the absence of something. You couldn't be phased, couldn't be hurt, couldn't be sad, couldn't be anything. I don't see why this is so bad.

While certainly sounding nice doesn't the wiping of your memory mean that all that you were before hand is "dead" and this new person in the afterlife is a completely different person? This is sort of why reincarnation doesn't ring true to me. If I was a cat in my previous life, I can't remember being a cat. Everything that Cat was, died when I was born. So I in essence will die when I reincarnate into something. The memory maketh the man.
But thanks for sharing

I wasn't speaking of reincarnation, just of a personal heaven.
If when you die all that carries on is your mind/soul then I'd wish to have mine continuously rerouted through endless perfect lives.
I would live, love my parents, love my friends, love my lovers, love myself, love life, prosper, die, repeat.

Who we are now is arbitrary really.

You know, this is actually part of the reason I call BS on how religion is supposed to make you a better person. If there's nothingness awaiting you, and your biggest fear is being erased, the truest way to prevent that in the big picture is to do something significant with your life, do something that will touch a lot of people, and cause them to want to hold you in high regard for more than just a generation. It's amazing incentive to live your life in a way that will benefit society. But if all you're doing is angling for a trip to heaven, that rings hollow and selfish to me. Especially in many christian circles where all you need to do to go to heaven is repent, and believe in god and jesus, and all will be forgiven (I know that's not all christian circles, but many I've run into, and been raised in). That's ******ed.

Couldn't agree more.
I often heard the argument that if there was no god, no accountability, then there wouldn't be any reason to be moral, that it be a hedonistic free for all.

I laugh that this comes from the forums and mouths of the devout. Goes to show how deep their conviction goes, how they just live life morally because it is a means to an end and not because it is the right thing to do.
I'd argue that more atheist are genuinely moral than pious people are.

 

[Manic]

Reincarnation is coming back to this Universe, which will end. You will get a finite number of times to come back. What are you going to do with the rest?

So the universe ends and you stop coming back. What's your point?

Reincarnation basically means the same to me as Death if I'm honest, because your 'consciousness', your specific personality, everything that you remember that made you who you are, is still erased.

The only thing that lives on is your 'soul', and without memories, what exactly is that worth? What does a soul carry with it?

Karma. The deeds of your previous life determine what kinds of circumstances you'll be born into in the next.

One thing about reincarnation that doesn't make sense to me is that it sort of implies a finite amount of beings.
If everything is reincarnated from something previously living wouldn't that mean that there was and always will be a set amount of things?

If so then it is inherently flawed.

Think of the Law of Conservation of Energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but merely transformed. The universe has a finite amount of energy inside it, yet there's enough on Earth for us to use and generate through whatever means we dream up.

So what if there's a finite amount of souls? Who's to say every soul in the universe was a living thing on Earth 80 million years ago? Maybe there's life elsewhere. Some believe there may have been life on Mars once, but there isn't now. What happened to the souls on Mars? Maybe they're here.

 

[Dr.]

Nothingness doesn't phase me as I wouldn't even know of it.

How strange. This is the EXACT reason why it would phase me.

How can nothingness phase you if nothing is simply the absence of something. You couldn't be phased, couldn't be hurt, couldn't be sad, couldn't be anything. I don't see why this is so bad.

Grammar Nazi alert! The word is "faze/fazed."