Atheism : Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[Eddie Dean]

"I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit." - Mark Twain

 

[Bubonic]

Grammar Nazi alert! The word is "faze/fazed."

I was just copying.
In any case, don't make me go war tribunal on your ass!

 

[Dr.]

I was just copying.
In any case, don't make me go war tribunal on your ass!

I was only following orders. t:

 

[the amazing fro]

How can nothingness phase you if nothing is simply the absence of something. You couldn't be phased, couldn't be hurt, couldn't be sad, couldn't be anything. I don't see why this is so bad.

Its not so bad during, obviously since I won't be conscious to think "well this ain't too shabby actually." Its the thinking about it that gets me worried and depressed at times. The absence of thought and of existence. Are you honestly telling me that not existing sounds like a swell time?

I wasn't speaking of reincarnation, just of a personal heaven.
If when you die all that carries on is your mind/soul then I'd wish to have mine continuously rerouted through endless perfect lives.
I would live, love my parents, love my friends, love my lovers, love myself, love life, prosper, die, repeat.

Who we are now is arbitrary really.

You missed the point slightly. Since your memory is wiped it wouldn't be you living out the perfect life but someone else. From your perspective it'd be the same as the nothingness.

Couldn't agree more.
I often heard the argument that if there was no god, no accountability, then there wouldn't be any reason to be moral, that it be a hedonistic free for all.

I laugh that this comes from the forums and mouths of the devout. Goes to show how deep their conviction goes, how they just live life morally because it is a means to an end and not because it is the right thing to do.
I'd argue that more atheist are genuinely moral than pious people are.

But there are examples of this everywhere in a secular society. Generally people don't break the law not because they are moral people but due to fear of consequences. Just as people who do moral things do so for the rewards that they get from it. Not because its the right thing to do. Its basic psychology. Generally people don't do something for nothing regardless of your religion.

Grammar Nazi alert! The word is "faze/fazed."

haha I knew there was something odd about it.

 

[Bubonic]

Its not so bad during, obviously since I won't be conscious to think "well this ain't too shabby actually." Its the thinking about it that gets me worried and depressed at times. The absence of thought and of existence. Are you honestly telling me that not existing sounds like a swell time?

Whatever the case may be there really is no point spending a modicum of time stressing out about it. You don't know, you can't know and you'll never know. How about enjoying the life you have instead of dwelling on the the unknown. Are you doing anything worthwhile with your life right now? Stop wasting your life on death.

You missed the point slightly. Since your memory is wiped it wouldn't be you living out the perfect life but someone else. From your perspective it'd be the same as the nothingness.

Speaking of missing the point...
I made clear a couple of post back that I accept the notion of nothingness, although if nothingness wasn't the case my ideal afterlife reality would be perpetual happy lives.
I really could care less if I wasn't me, maybe I'm not really me right now and you aren't you.

But there are examples of this everywhere in a secular society. Generally people don't break the law not because they are moral people but due to fear of consequences. Just as people who do moral things do so for the rewards that they get from it. Not because its the right thing to do. Its basic psychology. Generally people don't do something for nothing regardless of your religion.

Yes, but if the lords of Abrahamic religion are as all seeing and all knowing as you'd make them out to be then they'll be onto your little scams and send you off burning in hell for all eternity for having the audacity to try to trick them. Rightly so. If he's petty enough to punish folk for idolizing other gods then it is pretty certain he'd take offence to people trying to trick him.

I'm my secular society I can choose not to be dogmatic about the laws of the land, some are downright stupid and hypocritical. I play my cards right no one will ever know. The law is not all knowing. You on the other hand are ****ed.

 

[the amazing fro]

Whatever the case may be there really is no point spending a modicum of time stressing out about it. You don't know, you can't know and you'll never know. How about enjoying the life you have instead of dwelling on the the unknown. Are you doing anything worthwhile with your life right now? Stop wasting your life on death.

I hardly waste my time on death. I don't sit awake at night rocking back and forth thinking about it. I think about it occasionally and during topics like this one that concern. And the whole don't know, can't know and never will know basically sums up the whole argument of atheism vs religion and makes it rather pointless. Why does this thread even exist? If we can never know and there is no point in stressing about it whats the point in the debate?

Speaking of missing the point...
I made clear a couple of post back that I accept the notion of nothingness, although if nothingness wasn't the case my ideal afterlife reality would be perpetual happy lives.

I understand that you don't believe in an afterlife but I was merely commenting that your ideal is identical from you're to your belief.

I really could care less if I wasn't me, maybe I'm not really me right now and you aren't you.

You are definitely you and I am definitely me but perhaps you were not you and I was not me and in the future you will not be you and I will not be me...
Brain hurts...

I'm my secular society I can choose not to be dogmatic about the laws of the land, some are downright stupid and hypocritical. I play my cards right no one will ever know. The law is not all knowing. You on the other hand are ****ed

But I thought all atheist people were so moral. So know you're saying it's alright to break the law as long as it doesn't conform to your own moral code? Ok...

 

[Bubonic]

I hardly waste my time on death. I don't sit awake at night rocking back and forth thinking about it. I think about it occasionally and during topics like this one that concern. And the whole don't know, can't know and never will know basically sums up the whole argument of atheism vs religion and makes it rather pointless. Why does this thread even exist? If we can never know and there is no point in stressing about it whats the point in the debate?

Actually the thread was never started as a debate, it just evolved into one.

Although some things can't be proven, a lot of things can be disproven. Atheist have and can bring up points bringing up the validity of certain religious tenants, so just because the complexity of the matter might be starting to upset you doesn't mean the thread should be closed down.

I understand that you don't believe in an afterlife but I was merely commenting that your ideal is identical from you're to your belief.

You'll have to restructure this phrase in order for it to make any sense to me, if you please.

You are definitely you and I am definitely me but perhaps you were not you and I was not me and in the future you will not be you and I will not be me...
Brain hurts...

Why deal with absolutes, go talk to Descartes.

But I thought all atheist people were so moral. So know you're saying it's alright to break the law as long as it doesn't conform to your own moral code? Ok...

I never said all atheist people are moral. I said a great many of them seem to be more genuinely moral than your average pious person.
I like how instead of addressing the conundrum of tricking an all knowing being you instead tried to find fault with what I was saying.
All I was saying is that when it comes to breaking the law of the land versus breaking god's law, you've got a much better chance duping the law than the all knowing deity... That is if you believe in all that sort of make believe stuff.

 

[the amazing fro]

Actually the thread was never started as a debate, it just evolved into one.

Although some things can't be proven, a lot of things can be disproven. Atheist have and can bring up points bringing up the validity of certain religious tenants, so just because the complexity of the matter might be starting to upset you doesn't mean the thread should be closed down.

In what way is it upsetting me? No need for petty digs. Unfortunately if you start a thread about atheism or religion its going to end up in a debate. I'm not actually saying close the thread, I was merely referring to the major argument at large to which this thread has evolved into.

You'll have to restructure this phrase in order for it to make any sense to me, if you please.

Apologies, I didn't proof read. You said you believed in no afterlife. In nothingness Ok. Then you said that if there was an afterlife, you'd prefer a continual reincarnation of your soul into your body where everything is perfect for you. I merely commented on the fact that since in reincarnation your memories are wiped then from your perspective it would be the same as being in the nothingness. That's all I was saying.

I never said all atheist people are moral. I said a great many of them seem to be more genuinely moral than your average pious person.

Quite a harsh and hasty generalization. Then again that depends on your definition of "moral" (which is a whole different kettle of fish for a whole different thread ).

I like how instead of addressing the conundrum of tricking an all knowing being you instead tried to find fault with what I was saying.
All I was saying is that when it comes to breaking the law of the land versus breaking god's law, you've got a much better chance duping the law than the all knowing deity... That is if you believe in all that sort of make believe stuff.

I didn't address it because there was nothing to address. You were correct. That is a lot of people believe (not me myself). There isn't really a conundrum. God is more likely to get you than the fuzz. What's your point? That atheists don't commit crimes because they are genuinely good people while pious people that do good things are horrible because they are doing it out of fear of god? Whats the distinction? We all do things for our own selfish reasons. As long as you treat others well and don't harm or hurt them what does it matter the reason why we do things? That's my take on things anyway.

 

[Bubonic]

In what way is it upsetting me? No need for petty digs. Unfortunately if you start a thread about atheism or religion its going to end up in a debate. I'm not actually saying close the thread, I was merely referring to the major argument at large to which this thread has evolved into.

You seemed to be getting frazzled, I just ascertained that from the tone of your reply, so I could of been entirely mistaken.
I don't find it unfortunate, debate is a beautiful thing.
I just thought you inferred it should be closed when you questioned the point of it. The point of it as I see it now is a forum to discuss almost anything remotely related to atheism. This isn't a atheism/religion/evolution message board so it is nice to keep these things isolated.

Apologies, I didn't proof read. You said you believed in no afterlife. In nothingness Ok. Then you said that if there was an afterlife, you'd prefer a continual reincarnation of your soul into your body where everything is perfect for you. I merely commented on the fact that since in reincarnation your memories are wiped then from your perspective it would be the same as being in the nothingness. That's all I was saying.

Wouldn't even have to be the reincarnation of my soul in my body. Seems like certain theist believe the soul just sort of floats around somewhere after death, I'd just have mine on repeat.
It be no more than a perfect simulation, something like the Matrix, without the evil robots or my body being in a pod.
It wouldn't be the same as nothingness as it would be something, I just wouldn't want one eternal consciousness for a reason mentioned before... Eternity is a long time to spend with oneself. Reminds me of a great Stephen King short story actually...

Quite a harsh and hasty generalization. Then again that depends on your definition of "moral" (which is a whole different kettle of fish for a whole different thread ).

You gave the impression that the only reason people do moral things is because of the rewards the get at the end of life. I've read of this and spoke to people who share this view much more often than not. It is unfortunate, but hey, I guess it is a good reason to keep the illusion alive if we'd descend into chaos once the pious stopped believing!

I didn't address it because there was nothing to address. You were correct. That is a lot of people believe (not me myself). There isn't really a conundrum. God is more likely to get you than the fuzz. What's your point? That atheists don't commit crimes because they are genuinely good people while pious people that do good things are horrible because they are doing it out of fear of god? Whats the distinction? We all do things for our own selfish reasons. As long as you treat others well and don't harm or hurt them what does it matter the reason why we do things? That's my take on things anyway.

Way to throw everything in a blender.
My point is that you'll all burn in hell despite your convictions because God is the ultimate troll and he wont stand for your shenanigans.
I wasn't trying to paint the picture as atheist are perfect no matter what and the pious are wrong regardless of what they do.
I was simply underlining what I see as a glaring inconsistency in the Abrahamic religions, if the average person who believes only prevents themselves from sinning because God will judge them, but they would of sinned otherwise, then a omniscient God would know that this wasn't genuine piety and would smite you accordingly.

 

[the amazing fro]

You seemed to be getting frazzled, I just ascertained that from the tone of your reply, so I could of been entirely mistaken.
I don't find it unfortunate, debate is a beautiful thing.
I just thought you inferred it should be closed when you questioned the point of it. The point of it as I see it now is a forum to discuss almost anything remotely related to atheism. This isn't a atheism/religion/evolution message board so it is nice to keep these things isolated.

I honestly wasn't getting frazzled. I was just just referring to your statement "You don't know, you can't know and you'll never know" on the idea of the afterlife. Which is pretty much the conclusion to the entire atheism vs religion debate, in fact almost ANY philosophical debate. Its the only real conclusion and because of this it sort of kills the debate. I wasn't demanding the end of the debate, I'm quite enjoying this!

Wouldn't even have to be the reincarnation of my soul in my body. Seems like certain theist believe the soul just sort of floats around somewhere after death, I'd just have mine on repeat.
It be no more than a perfect simulation, something like the Matrix, without the evil robots or my body being in a pod.
It wouldn't be the same as nothingness as it would be something, I just wouldn't want one eternal consciousness for a reason mentioned before... Eternity is a long time to spend with oneself. Reminds me of a great Stephen King short story actually...

From your perspective it would be the same. What's to say you aren't living in one of your afterlives now? I think I've heard this theory of the afterlife before as an explanation of deja vu.

You gave the impression that the only reason people do moral things is because of the rewards the get at the end of life. I've read of this and spoke to people who share this view much more often than not. It is unfortunate, but hey, I guess it is a good reason to keep the illusion alive if we'd descend into chaos once the pious stopped believing!

This is sadly the answer for quite a lot of people, according to psychology. People won't do something for nothing, which is a shame though usually its not an entirely conscious decision.

Way to throw everything in a blender.
My point is that you'll all burn in hell despite your convictions because God is the ultimate troll and he wont stand for your shenanigans.
I wasn't trying to paint the picture as atheist are perfect no matter what and the pious are wrong regardless of what they do.
I was simply underlining what I see as a glaring inconsistency in the Abrahamic religions, if the average person who believes only prevents themselves from sinning because God will judge them, but they would of sinned otherwise, then a omniscient God would know that this wasn't genuine piety and would smite you accordingly.

Have you read the bible? Because if you had you would know that the Abrahamic god is very big on god fearing, especially in the Jewish and Muslim faiths. If you fear god, then you don't sin which is all good according to the bible. If you fear god then ultimately you have nothing to fear. I don't recall a commandment saying "thou shall not think nasty thoughts but then do good things instead just to try get in my favour" (though haven't read it in a bit so... ). I'd say most pious people be pious due to mixture of actual piety and belief in what they are doing is good and right and with a pinch of godfearing.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Karma. The deeds of your previous life determine what kinds of circumstances you'll be born into in the next.

See, that'd just be horrible. Constantly thinking 'Oh no, that bad thing I just did has screwed things up for the 'next' me.

Would also make me feel like it's the last me's fault every time something bad happens.

Seriously though, I don't like or believe in Karma.

It's basically like saying that some people are born into the world paying for sins that they don't even remember committing.

What's the point of that?

The consciousness that did all those things is gone, and got away scott free, and this innocent new person who might be raised entirely differently and be good and kind, is having to suffer...

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Are you honestly telling me that not existing sounds like a swell time?

I will tell you completely honestly, that it sounds fine to me.

I mean, if I was shot, tomorrow, and I was dying, I'd be gutted, obviously. I'd be really really hoping that somebody was going to save me, and I'd fight to the last second to hold onto my life. Not out of a fear of dying, but out of the love of living.

But if I couldn't fight, if I died... Then that's it. I've finished. I'm over. There is NOTHING to be afraid of in that.

All you have to do is accept the reality that you are not the only person on this earth, and you are certainly not the most important.

If you die, everything else will still be fine. Your loved ones will grieve, but it's not 'the end of the world'. It's just the end of your perspective on it.

Your consciousness, my consciousness... They feel like EVERYTHING because that's all we are.

But when you start seeing everything you think, everything you are, everything you remember, as just a part of the fuction of an organ called the brain, you realise that you should spend more time just appreciating the miracle that is having a consciousness this wonderful at all, instead of being greedy enough to never want it to end.

 

[the amazing fro]

I will tell you completely honestly, that it sounds fine to me.

I mean, if I was shot, tomorrow, and I was dying, I'd be gutted, obviously. I'd be really really hoping that somebody was going to save me, and I'd fight to the last second to hold onto my life. Not out of a fear of dying, but out of the love of living.

But if I couldn't fight, if I died... Then that's it. I've finished. I'm over. There is NOTHING to be afraid of in that.

All you have to do is accept the reality that you are not the only person on this earth, and you are certainly not the most important.

If you die, everything else will still be fine. Your loved ones will grieve, but it's not 'the end of the world'. It's just the end of your perspective on it.

Your consciousness, my consciousness... They feel like EVERYTHING because that's all we are.

But when you start seeing everything you think, everything you are, everything you remember, as just a part of the fuction of an organ called the brain, you realise that you should spend more time just appreciating the miracle that is having a consciousness this wonderful at all, instead of being greedy enough to never want it to end.

I guess we have just have different views on things. You said earlier how eternal life would drive you mad. Sounds absolutely fine to me. I wouldn't get bored or go mad. I'd do the things I enjoy forever.
Again this is probably an age thing. I haven't done a quarter of the things I want to do yet. My life is "incomplete" as it were. Maybe in 70 years when I am old and grey, my body is falling apart and I have accomplished all I want to accomplish maybe I shall welcome death with open arms. Not now though.
Consciousness and life are beautiful things, I think anybody can agree on that religious or not. I appreciate life a lot and I don't think its greedy to never want to lose it. Maybe life will go on (or maybe it won't. For all I know the world revolves around me and then the universe ends when I die).

 

[Bubonic]

From your perspective it would be the same. What's to say you aren't living in one of your afterlives now? I think I've heard this theory of the afterlife before as an explanation of deja vu.

This is certainly a lackluster afterlife in that case. I want a refund.

Have you read the bible? Because if you had you would know that the Abrahamic god is very big on god fearing, especially in the Jewish and Muslim faiths. If you fear god, then you don't sin which is all good according to the bible. If you fear god then ultimately you have nothing to fear. I don't recall a commandment saying "thou shall not think nasty thoughts but then do good things instead just to try get in my favour" (though haven't read it in a bit so... ). I'd say most pious people be pious due to mixture of actual piety and belief in what they are doing is good and right and with a pinch of godfearing.

I've read excerpts of it, could never stomach the whole thing. I definitely did get the feeling he was a petty jealous old man, especially from what I'd read of the old testament. It might not explicitly state it that way but given his genocidal track record and all around pettiness I wouldn't put it past such a creature.

I guess we have just have different views on things. You said earlier how eternal life would drive you mad. Sounds absolutely fine to me. I wouldn't get bored or go mad. I'd do the things I enjoy forever.
Again this is probably an age thing. I haven't done a quarter of the things I want to do yet. My life is "incomplete" as it were. Maybe in 70 years when I am old and grey, my body is falling apart and I have accomplished all I want to accomplish maybe I shall welcome death with open arms. Not now though.

That's just the thing though, you've absolutely not concept of what eternity is. You've probably not been around for much more than 20 years, if that. Even 70 years when you feel you might welcome death with open arms is nothing. Just try to wrap your head around how long a billion years is.

 

[the amazing fro]

I've read excerpts of it, could never stomach the whole thing. I definitely did get the feeling he was a petty jealous old man, especially from what I'd read of the old testament. It might not explicitly state it that way but given his genocidal track record and all around pettiness I wouldn't put it past such a creature.

I quite frankly don't know what god is. I believe in him but I certainly don't understand him. He probably cannot be accurately described as a he. The ba hai faith sounds interesting to me: that all religions are basically different interpretations from different cultures of the same thing like how many people read a book and interpret it. But those are our own interpretations. I believe the true nature of god is something beyond our little minds to comprehend.

That's just the thing though, you've absolutely not concept of what eternity is. You've probably not been around for much more than 20 years, if that. Even 70 years when you feel you might welcome death with open arms is nothing. Just try to wrap your head around how long a billion years is

Exactly my point. I'm 16 now and at this precise moment in time I feel like I could live forever (like most teenagers). The passage of time will probably rectify that. When all my friends and family are gone, I've done everything I want to do and I'm unbelievably tired with life I might think "What? An eternity of this? Let me sleep!"
Though then again I personally don't think heaven is a linear as we are making out. I don't think our conventional ideas of the progression of time really applies in a trans-dimensional plane, do you?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Well I'm only 23.

But I agree to a certain extent that it is an age thing. I used to feel the same as you at 16, I remember it well.

There's plenty of time for your mind to explore the realities of death and eternal life.

Hey I'm not opposed to the idea of immortality, as long as I knew I could end it whenever I wanted to. Because I think forced eternity would drive you mad. If you wanted to die and couldn't... That scares the **** out of me.

 

[the amazing fro]

Well I'm only 23.

But I agree to a certain extent that it is an age thing. I used to feel the same as you at 16, I remember it well.

There's plenty of time for your mind to explore the realities of death and eternal life.

Hey I'm not opposed to the idea of immortality, as long as I knew I could end it whenever I wanted to. Because I think forced eternity would drive you mad. If you wanted to die and couldn't... That scares the **** out of me.

I understand your point and its valid one. Though if heaven is a nice as Christians say I can't imagine anyone wanting to get out.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Actually that is one of the biggest reasons I don't believe in Heaven.

I don't believe happiness can stay happiness if it's just constant with no sadness or negativity at all to counter it.

I honestly think, that even the most wonderful idea of heaven I can concieve, would eventually get boring during eternity.

 

[the amazing fro]

I imagine its like being on a drug without the nasty side effects. You're strung out and content. Boredom doesn't really enter your mind. I see it as a place where normal conventions go out the window. In real life you'd probably get bored or depressed or whatever. Not in heaven.

What would your ideal afterlife be?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I imagine its like being on a drug without the nasty side effects. You're strung out and content. Boredom doesn't really enter your mind. I see it as a place where normal conventions go out the window. In real life you'd probably get bored or depressed or whatever. Not in heaven.

What would your ideal afterlife be?

That sounds good to you?

An eternity of never being sober again doesn't sound so great to me... I mean, I've tried a few drugs in my time, but I'm always grateful that I have reality to come back to after a bender.

If heaven is a place where your not capable of boredom, then it's a place where your consciousness is no longer the same. You are not capable of logical sane thoughts, only the eternal experience of bliss... Don't see the difference between that and dying myself.

And in answer to your question, Never Never Land

 

[the amazing fro]

That sounds good to you?

An eternity of never being sober again doesn't sound so great to me... I mean, I've tried a few drugs in my time, but I'm always grateful that I have reality to come back to after a bender.

If heaven is a place where your not capable of boredom, then it's a place where your consciousness is no longer the same. You are not capable of logical sane thoughts, only the eternal experience of bliss... Don't see the difference between that and dying myself.

And in answer to your question, Never Never Land

The drugs bit was a joke but I'd rather experience an eternity of bliss than an eternity of nothing.

Though that said Never Never land sure is enticing. Anyone who couldn't spend an eternity in neverland needs to be psychologically assessed.

 

[Manic]

Before I reply to this thing on karma, let me weigh in on the whole Heaven thing: There are some sects and groups that believe your soul won't be conscious in Heaven. I had a friend (Christian, but I can't remember which sect) who believed there'd be peace waiting for him, but not any actual happiness or bliss as we'd recognize on Earth because our souls will simply exist as part of God or something like that. So the issue of boredom might not be a factor at all.

See, that'd just be horrible. Constantly thinking 'Oh no, that bad thing I just did has screwed things up for the 'next' me.

Would also make me feel like it's the last me's fault every time something bad happens.

Seriously though, I don't like or believe in Karma.

It's basically like saying that some people are born into the world paying for sins that they don't even remember committing.

What's the point of that?

The consciousness that did all those things is gone, and got away scott free, and this innocent new person who might be raised entirely differently and be good and kind, is having to suffer...

What can I say? Karma is a b****. I think it's kind of an interesting philosophy, though. In essence, you're doing good in this life not only for your own soul, but for someone else you haven't even met. The concept of Heaven means you're doing good so you can reap the rewards upon death, but reincarnation means you're doing good for the sake of some schmuck who hasn't even been born yet and you (as you are now) won't get to see it. It's kinda self-serving and selfless at the same time.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

The drugs bit was a joke but I'd rather experience an eternity of bliss than an eternity of nothing.

Though that said Never Never land sure is enticing. Anyone who couldn't spend an eternity in neverland needs to be psychologically assessed.

I know!

But what's great about Never Never Land is that it wouldn't be 'perfect'.

I guess what I hate in some people's concept of heaven, is the idea of eternal bliss. Which I just don't like the sound of.

I wanna feel fear, adrenaline, excitement. I wanna feel free and childlike and adventurous. In Never Never Land, you can get cut by a sword, drowned by a mermaid, kindnapped by some indians.

It's not eternal bliss, but it's my kind of heaven though.

A place where magic exists and you can live your life like a child playing a game.

Of course, believing in Never Never Land is ridiculous... just like believing in heaven IMO.

But i'd love it if I was wrong

 

[Bubonic]

Holy ****, if the afterlife is a neverending shroom trip I never want to die!

 

[redhawk23]

Karma strikes me as being very similar to some aspects of Calvinism. In Calvinism earthly success is linked to God's favorable view of you, of you being in His good graces and is indicative of your fate in the afterlife.

Essentially these views allow people to look at others that are often born into absolute poverty, disease and suffering and simply say it is because they deserve it. In contrast those born into better situations, not even gaining through achievement but simply through birth, are able to assume it is simply because they are inherently better people than those less fortunate. Circumstances that are completely out of people's control, circumstances from the luck of birth, are used to place judgement on people. It's crap.