Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[-Arya-]

The only way to make some definitive statement about how much faith is required of an atheist's position is to ask the atheist to detail their position.

Exactly. I skip the label 'atheist' altogether and just simply state my reasons for lack of religious belief (whenever required). It is less confusing and less likely to be misinterpreted.

 

[8wid]

^Man can still exist if it is not divinely created for a special purpose.

I keep hearing the fear that there would be chaos and anarchy if more people stopped believing God. That's absurd, there would be much more peace if there was more non-theists. Man will turn away from war much much more and look for peaceful solutions. Having a secular mindset will spread education and more abundance of technology to be used for peaceful purposes and more according to a better morality.

 

[SuperFerret]

Bull****. There'll be just as much violence. The reasons will be different, that's all.

 

[the amazing fro]

Bull****. There'll be just as much violence. The reasons will be different, that's all.

Pretty much. A recurring argument I get from talking to Atheists is that Religion seemingly causes all the problems in the world and to annihilate it from the face of the earth would give way to a utopia where we all live in harmony and hold hands. Which is absurd. Religion, like any man made concept can be used for good and for evil. Eliminate it and we'll just fight and kill for something else. A political ideal, economic systems, race, sexuality, dress sense etc. We are a pack species, it's in our very nature to separate into in groups and to be hostile to out groups. Eliminating religion won't solve that. Our fight should be against the ignorance and greed within organized religion and anywhere else in society.

 

[Marvin]

Pretty much. A recurring argument I get from talking to Atheists is that Religion seemingly causes all the problems in the world and to annihilate it from the face of the earth would give way to a utopia where we all live in harmony and hold hands. Which is absurd. Religion, like any man made concept can be used for good and for evil. Eliminate it and we'll just fight and kill for something else. A political ideal, economic systems, race, sexuality, dress sense etc. We are a pack species, it's in our very nature to separate into in groups and to be hostile to out groups. Eliminating religion won't solve that. Our fight should be against the ignorance and greed within organized religion and anywhere else in society.

Some use Religion as a tool to do wrong and exploit. And yes some use it for "good." Just like Nuclear fission. Take that away and people will find another reason to enact out their "god given nature." The trouble is the effectiveness of the bad done with said tool at our given time in history.

For example there are some crazy people in the middle east and it effects the world in a big way. Take religion away and you might just be dealing with a group of people that hate each other, but at least they'll be honest about it and won't use any excuses to justify themselves. There might still be car bombings, but you better believe the culprits won't have they precious genitals wrapped.

 

[chaseter]

There would not be peace if religion didn't exist...that's an extremely false notion.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

“If nothing we do matters… then all that matters is what we do.” – Angel

One of my all time favourite quotes

There Is also a great interview with Whedon where he talks about that quote and what it meant to him.

 

[Marvin]

There would not be peace if religion didn't exist...that's an extremely false notion.

Never said there would be.
I simply compared it to the presence of another hurt full tool. It makes for more problems in our fickle hands.

Getting rid of nukes won't bring peace. Not that religion is comparable to nukes but the idea of what we do with such power.

 

[8wid]

Edit

 

[chaseter]

Never said there would be.
I simply compared it to the presence of another hurt full tool. It makes for more problems in our fickle hands.

Getting rid of nukes won't bring peace. Not that religion is comparable to nukes but the idea of what we do with such power.

Wasn't referring to you Religion is an excuse. People fight all the time about things other than religion so that throws the religion is the root of all evil notion out the window.

On a side note...I think religion will always exist. If no religions are true and all are made up by men then it's an evolutionary advantage to be used by some at the expense of others.

 

[Bat-Mite]

The argument was that the world would be more peaceful if there were more non-theists, not that religion was the root of all evil. It is important to note that not all religions are theistic. I am not aware of any system of mass oppression that has ever been committed in the name of Buddhism, Jainism, or Daoism. However, when theism is thrown out the window, it's much more difficult to justify that oppression.

God said that homosexuality is an abomination and that homosexuals should be stoned to death.
God said that the wife shall submit to the husband and that a woman shall not be suffered to teach. Oh yeah, women are also responsible for sin.
God said that slavery is A-ok.
God said that thou shall not suffer a witch to live. (Leave it to the clergy to define what a "witch" is.)
God said that people are cursed with black skin because they are a race of servants and their skin color identifies them as "Hamites."
God said to kill everyone here and He will sort them out. The Lord knows His own.

If you take the "God said" out of the equation, you have to come up with an actual explanation for these statements. Leave that in the equation and you can threaten people with eternal hellfire if they dare to question you, or if the church has power at the time, you can simply have them tortured and executed. Either way, you'll be able to enforce your prejudices through fear that you wouldn't be able to as easily if you lacked this giant bogeyman to hold over the heads of ignorant people.

 

[Manic]

I leave this thread for a while, come back, and to my surprise nothing has changed. There are still people who think that the Abrahamic religions are either the only religions that exist or simply the only monotheistic religions that exist, as they justify their disdain for all religion by pointing out the flaws of no more than 3.

I'm just going to casually drop the word "Sikhism" into this thread and watch it get ignored.

 

[8wid]

^I have to conclude that mysticism, psychic abilities, spirit energy found in non-theist religions, and have about as much evidence to support their existence as theistic religions do.

In fact to use Halloween as an opportunity to educate the ignorant in the existence of ghosts here's little something...

Is It Real?: Ghosts: Is It Real?

 

[bunk]

I leave this thread for a while, come back, and to my surprise nothing has changed. There are still people who think that the Abrahamic religions are either the only religions that exist or simply the only monotheistic religions that exist, as they justify their disdain for all religion by pointing out the flaws of no more than 3.

I'm just going to casually drop the word "Sikhism" into this thread and watch it get ignored.

I'm guessing most of us here are North Americans, so naturally the discussion will skew toward the Abrahamic religions. If you feel someone is lumping all religions in an unfair way, you should call that person out.

 

[Manic]

^I have to conclude that mysticism, psychic abilities, spirit energy found in non-theist religions, and have about as much evidence to support their existence as theistic religions do.

I've never argued for the validity of any religion. If none of it's true, then what's the problem with letting some people hold on to their harmless fictions?

 

[chaseter]

The argument was that the world would be more peaceful if there were more non-theists, not that religion was the root of all evil.

That is the same exact argument The world would be better if there were more non-theists is the same thing as saying the world would be better if there was less religion or theists. What is the link between those two arguments? Religion.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I leave this thread for a while, come back, and to my surprise nothing has changed. There are still people who think that the Abrahamic religions are either the only religions that exist or simply the only monotheistic religions that exist, as they justify their disdain for all religion by pointing out the flaws of no more than 3.

I'm just going to casually drop the word "Sikhism" into this thread and watch it get ignored.

That's a nice high horse you've got there.

I'm aware of Sikhism and also Zoroastrianism and the Baha'i faith, as well as monotheistic Native American spirituality. So what? These are very much in the minority and their influence is minimal at best. The three religions that you're apparently opposed to us talking about make up about half of the world's population. I would LOVE if most of the Christians and Muslims in the world converted to a non-oppressive religion, no matter what the religion may be. Hell, I would be delighted if they all became Quakers or even Amish, as those are very peaceful groups that tend to keep to themselves. Before the nitpicking starts, yes, I am aware that those are both Christian offshoots... but again, they are groups with very minimal influence.

We're talking about the troublemakers here. Again, the original statement was that if there were more non-theists, the world would be more peaceful. The knee-jerk reaction is to interpret this as being equivalent to "ALL THEISTS ARE EVIL/VIOLENT/ETC." but that is not the case. However, if all Muslims converted to atheism or secular humanism, I'm doubtful that there would be an INCREASE in violence in the Middle East. I suspect that women's rights and gay rights would spread like wildfire through the region if such a thing were to happen. I suspect that there would no longer be a fight for gay rights in North America if all of its Christians converted to secular humanism, and I suspect that incidents of anti-gay violence would drop drastically.

they justify their disdain for all religion by pointing out the flaws of no more than 3.

And this right here is a completely disingenuous statement if ever there was one. Maybe there was someone much earlier in the conversation that expressed such a view, but it certainly hasn't happened in the past few pages. A comment was made about religion being the "root of all evil," but that was not a statement made by anyone arguing against theism and is actually an exaggeration and distortion of the argument that was originally being made.

 

[Bat-Mite]

That is the same exact argument The world would be better if there were more non-theists is the same thing as saying the world would be better if there was less religion or theists. What is the link between those two arguments? Religion.

You seem to have trouble understanding the concept that a religion can be non-theist. Monotheism and polytheism are not the only options.

 

[Manic]

I'm guessing most of us here are North Americans, so naturally the discussion will skew toward the Abrahamic religions. If you feel someone is lumping all religions in an unfair way, you should call that person out.

That's what I'm attempting to do.

 

[Manic]

That's a nice high horse you've got there.

I'm aware of Sikhism and also Zoroastrianism and the Baha'i faith, as well as monotheistic Native American spirituality. So what? These are very much in the minority and their influence is minimal at best. The three religions that you're apparently opposed to us talking about make up about half of the world's population. I would LOVE if most of the Christians and Muslims in the world converted to a non-oppressive religion, no matter what the religion may be. Hell, I would be delighted if they all became Quakers or even Amish, as those are very peaceful groups that tend to keep to themselves. Before the nitpicking starts, yes, I am aware that those are both Christian offshoots... but again, they are groups with very minimal influence.

We're talking about the troublemakers here. Again, the original statement was that if there were more non-theists, the world would be more peaceful. The knee-jerk reaction is to interpret this as being equivalent to "ALL THEISTS ARE EVIL/VIOLENT/ETC." but that is not the case. However, if all Muslims converted to atheism or secular humanism, I'm doubtful that there would be an INCREASE in violence in the Middle East. I suspect that women's rights and gay rights would spread like wildfire through the region if such a thing were to happen. I suspect that there would no longer be a fight for gay rights in North America if all of its Christians converted to secular humanism, and I suspect that incidents of anti-gay violence would drop drastically.And this right here is a completely disingenuous statement if ever there was one. Maybe there was someone much earlier in the conversation that expressed such a view, but it certainly hasn't happened in the past few pages. A comment was made about religion being the "root of all evil," but that was not a statement made by anyone arguing against theism and is actually an exaggeration and distortion of the argument that was originally being made.

One word: specify.

If you're only talking about Christianity or Islam, then specify. Otherwise, it looks like you're lumping every religion together. There are more religions that don't apply to your statements then there are religions that do. I'm sorry I interpreted your words about theists to include theistic groups you didn't name-- not that you actually named any before.

 

[chaseter]

You seem to have trouble understanding the concept that a religion can be non-theist. Monotheism and polytheism are not the only options.

You're the one lumping all theistic religions together in the first place Talking about how theism is the main cause of violence and that it's eradication or reduction would lead to increased peace throughout the world. What a load of BS.

Religion means a set of belief systems that relate to spirituality. You can't just cherry pick what you think are the bad/violent religions or just think that all theistic religions are violent. That is asinine and is nothing more than ill thought opinion. Religion doesn't make the person, the person makes the person. It's the same dumb argument that guns kill people...it's stupid. So, lets take away all guns and that means that violence would decrease!

The world would not be a peaceful Utopia if we were all Janists or atheists. Man destroys religion. In fact, Janism has been used as a tool for greed. The first emperor of India was a Jain and yeah well he defeated many Kings and even Alexander the Great's General. Yet Janism is highly touted as peaceful and non violent. All religions are corrupt-able by man. If religion didn't exist then man would simply use another guise.

 

[SuperFerret]

I'm Buddhist. It's pretty awesome.

 

[8wid]

Richard Dawkins: 'Somebody as intelligent as Jesus would have been an atheist'

 

[SuperFerret]

Dawkins is a well-known *****ebag. Citing him hurts your claims.

 

[8wid]

^You must have a big itch with him to say that. I would say he can be arrogant often, but what he says can also be very insightful.