Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[Dr.]

...but I bet you can't explain how Jesus' teachings make sense without a belief in the God of the Bible.

Agreeing with the devout CS Lewis, atheist Hitchens makes the same observation. If Jesus wasn’t god, many of his actions and pronouncements – rather than moral - would be incoherent.

Lewis: “That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.”

Of course, Lewis drew the conclusion that, therefore, Jesus must god. Conversely, Hitchens (per Lewis) is able to deny the morality of Jesus’s teachings.

 

[8wid]

If Jesus was not a fictional being made up in a story, then he was a deluded individual who were like many prophets in his day that claimed to have been divinely communicated to with God. It can even be interpreted as it is with Mormons and Muslims that Jesus was not the son of God, but a prophet so entranced in the Holy Spirit he was called this because he could communicate with God so much.

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes! Faith isn't science or history. It actually doesn't matter whether it's true or not. For a lot of people faith makes them feel better about their mortality. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that IMO. If I looked at faith and spiritual beliefs under a purely rationalist microscope I would be inclined to take an atheistic view. The problem is people who TREAT it as fact and science. That is fanaticism and I view it as it's own religion. There are fanatics from just about every major faith and they all have more in common with each other in their fanaticism than they would ever admit.

I think there has to be a distinction between religious faith, and faith in an concept or ideal. I think that you can take inspiration from people who are fictional. I take tremendous inspiration from the Jesus in "Last Temptation of Christ" who is despite doubts, uncertainty, and through the love and friendship of his apostles is able to choose to do the right thing over his own self interests. I also take inspiration from stories about Philip Marlowe and Superman.

 

[8wid]

Hey Americans, is it considered to be discrimination not to hire any religious individuals who apply for a job because of their faith if the management runs a secular school designed to promote an atheistic or agnostic world view?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Hey Americans, is it considered to be discrimination not to hire any religious individuals who apply for a job because of their faith if the management runs a secular school designed to promote an atheistic or agnostic world view?

I have yet to hear of such a case. Safe to say such a case would go to court.

 

[bgates87]

Hey Americans, is it considered to be discrimination not to hire any religious individuals who apply for a job because of their faith if the management runs a secular school designed to promote an atheistic or agnostic world view?

Of course not. That would be considered a bona fide occupational qualification exception. It's the same exception that allows churches to only hire members of their religion and denomination. The employer would only have to prove that someone who holds a belief that a god exists would not be qualified to sincerely teach a worldview that holds there is no evidence that a god exists, or that the existence of a god is unknowable. I think it would be an easy case to make. Honestly though, I'm not sure it would even be in the best interest of such an institution to not hire people with opposing worldviews.

 

[Art_of_Crime]

Honestly, the whole thing sounds like a Paul Bunyan story to me.
Its very possible that there was once a tall strong logger named Paul during the early days of our country. Over time stories of his accomplishments grew, and were changed as the the stories were told and retold until he morphed into some mythical figure able to do things far beyond the capabilities of mortal man.
I'm just glad there aren't a bunch of flannel wearing axe toting Bunyan worshipers coming to my door at 6am on a saturday asking if I've heard the word of Paul.

Isn't it possible that Jesus was just a man, who was trying to spread a message and it was later that his kooky followers decided that he would be a better standard to gather around if he was a demigod? Or his life was just retold so many times that it was stretched out of proportion?

 

[Hawkingbird]

Okay, I'm just inputting this without looking at the discussion. Because quite frankly, I hate people who look at an argument with a one sided view, without taking into account the opposing party's view.
I take the Bible metorphoricly. It teaches how to be a good person and do good things. Jesus is an example of this. The Holy Spirit is something to hang on to, to look at and think "What should I do in this situation?" God in my opinion is something to bring man back down to earth, as we are so egotistical and get our self's into such crap, that sometime's we need to look above to a "father" figure for help, even if this help is a creation of man, which makes him even more beautiful.

 

[redhawk23]

That's all fine and good but claiming the interpretation of the a metaphorical father figure is infallible or more valid than anyone else's metaphorical understanding of the world is kind of ridiculous. I'm not saying that's what you do at all, I'm just saying that is a very common practice.

 

[Sloth7d]

Okay, I'm just inputting this without looking at the discussion. Because quite frankly, I hate people who look at an argument with a one sided view, without taking into account the opposing party's view.

Surely you can see how this is more than a little ironic?

I take the Bible metorphoricly. It teaches how to be a good person and do good things. Jesus is an example of this. The Holy Spirit is something to hang on to, to look at and think "What should I do in this situation?" God in my opinion is something to bring man back down to earth, as we are so egotistical and get our self's into such crap, that sometime's we need to look above to a "father" figure for help, even if this help is a creation of man, which makes him even more beautiful.

When you say you read the Bible metaphorically, does that mean you do or don't believe the God as decribed in the Bible literally exists? Because I've always gotten mixed answers on that from other Christians who take a more figurative approach to reading it.

 

[Lighthouse]

Holy crap, did anyone see the agnostic foster family on South Park? That was amazing. Dr. Pepper truly is the agnostic soda.

 

[Hawkingbird]

Surely you can see how this is more than a little ironic?



When you say you read the Bible metaphorically, does that mean you do or don't believe the God as decribed in the Bible literally exists? Because I've always gotten mixed answers on that from other Christians who take a more figurative approach to reading it.

Haha, I worded that wrong. I meant the comment above! And as for God, I don't know, but at the moment he's more a man made creation.

 

[8wid]

Christians turn to reading the Bible figuratively as some book of symbolic riddles when they want to pretend there is something more to it than that obviously flawed literal translation they can't believe has some outlandish ideas in it. With the exception of a few passages such as the Dream of Daniel and the Book of Revelation, this is simple revisionist interpretation to make them feel better about ignoring the harsh facts that contradict each other and real life.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

I knew the Sufis didn't rely on scripture that much, but I didn't know they don't at all. I know mostly about the Sufi's through several books of Karen Armstrong and a few others where she says that the evangelical Muslims of today have lost their way from the ones of the past. Though I could have sworn that she said Sufis still did rely on text of the Quran; admitedly more for metaphorical purposes to help lay men understand than for literal purposes. But you say it is true that you don't focus on scripture at all in any sense?

Not that I know of. Of course, I'm not an official member of a Sufi order or anything. However, to my knowledge, Sufism focuses on remembrance of God(Zhikr), meditation and other spiritual practices. Sure, a Sufi might read scripture because it's part of Islam and a Sufi is a Muslim but I've never heard of study of scripture being a focus of specifically Sufi practices.

 

[8wid]

Jesus Loves You

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Just wanted to share my favourite atheism quotes

What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof -
Christopher Hitchens

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one - George Bernard Shaw

Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent - Unknown

The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life. — Sigmund Freud

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. … Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death -
Albert Einstein

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Jesus Loves You

That was great. Watched Man of God and Jesus Radio as well, had me in stitches

 

[redhawk23]

With the Einstein quote it should be note that he also wrote several times about how he was uncomfortable with being quoted in favor atheism. Not that that quote is not both wonderful and applicable.



Anywho,

I spent Saturday at Skepticon IV in Springfield, Mo. It was a good time featuring a number of speakers from a range of the secular community, quite a few bloggers and scientists.

In the middle of the day that had a discussion panel addressing their own opinions of secular approaches to death and several topics there in.

The moderator was the communications director for the national level Secular Student Alliance, of which my own organization is a part.

His intro to the discussion was one of the funnier things I've heard lately : "Ladies and Gentleman, I am proud to present to you Americas greatest fear. The Death Panel is real and the atheists are in charge!"

Also I both listened to a speech by and later met David Silverman, president of The American Atheists.

It is quite strange to meet a meme. Perhaps some day I will get to pet Advice Dog.

 

[8wid]

Jesus and me

Man of God



This presents the whole logic of Christianity.

 

[Sloth7d]

Jesus Loves You

t:

God of the Paradoxes

Just wanted to share my favourite atheism quotes

Awesome Quotes. Here are some of my favorites, though not all of them by atheists. These are quotes that relate to theism and atheist but ring true to me all the same.

Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious? Or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?...
...For one is of a kind to be loved because it is loved, and the other is of a kind to be loved because it is of a kind to be loved."
~Socrates

"I think that if there were a God, there would be less evil on this earth. I believe that if evil exists here below, then either it was willed by God or it was beyond His powers to prevent it. Now I cannot bring myself to fear a God who is either spiteful or weak. I defy Him without fear and care not a fig for his thunderbolts."
~ Marquis De Sade

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

~Epicurus

If God does not exist it is necessary to invent him.

~ Voltaire

"Do not use the past as an alibi
For all of your deficiencies always standing by
Face your negligence, do not fool yourself
Shortcomings will soon appear
For weakness shows itself

Blind from your success and all of the excess
Deaf from the praise you had"

~Epica from their song Run For A Fall

"Some foolish men declare that creator made the world. The doctrine that the world was created is ill advised and should be rejected. If God created the world, where was he before the creation? If you say he was transcendent then and needed no support, where is he now? How could God have made this world without any raw material? If you say that he made this first, and then the world, you are faced with an endless regression. If you declare that this raw material arose naturally you fall into another fallacy, For the whole universe might thus have been its own creator, and have arisen quite naturally. If God created the world by an act of his own will, without any raw material, then it is just his will and nothing else — and who will believe this silly nonsense? If he is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him? If, on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could no more create the universe than a potter could. If he is form-less, action-less and all-embracing, how could he have created the world? Such a soul, devoid of all morality, would have no desire to create anything. If he is perfect, he does not strive for the three aims of man, so what advantage would he gain by creating the universe? If you say that he created to no purpose because it was his nature to do so, then God is pointless. If he created in some kind of sport, it was the sport of a foolish child, leading to trouble. If he created because of the karma of embodied beings [acquired in a previous creation] He is not the Almighty Lord, but subordinate to something else. If out of love for living beings and need of them he made the world, why did he not take creation wholly blissful free from misfortune? If he were transcendent he would not create, for he would be free: Nor if involved in transmigration, for then he would not be almighty. Thus the doctrine that the world was created by God makes no sense at all, And God commits great sin in slaying the children whom he himself created. If you say that he slays only to destroy evil beings, why did he create such beings in the first place? Good men should combat the believer in divine creation, maddened by an evil doctrine. Know that the world is uncreated, as time itself is, without beginning or end, and is based on the principles, life and rest. Uncreated and indestructible, it endures under the compulsion of its own nature." ~ Janesa

Yeah, that last one was a long, I know, lol.

 

[Sloth7d]

Some other quotes I find poignant:

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. ​

~Nietsche

"All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.”~Buddha

​

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become.”~Buddha

​

"God... a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive."~Ayn Rand

​

"Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason."~Ayn Rand

​

"Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and greatness should be waiting for us in our graves - or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth." ~Ayn Rand

​

 

[8wid]

The Linda Show: Rapture Ready

The Linda Show: Gay Agenda

 

[8wid]

Churches - a building built for someone to read and interpret a big, fat ancient book for us and to socialize in once a week and catch up on the latest gossip. Seriously why don't more Christians just read the Bible by themselves, get some good songs off itunes they like and sing them, instead of going to give these guys money to run and lease an necessary room and building. And if they have to tithe why not give those without ipods or tablets the money raised every week to get one with internet access so they can listen to the gospel radio and read their version of the Bible for free!

They can also stay in touch of missionary work with facebook and other social networking sites and just give them money through paypal. Why go to that building every week just to hear a story?

 

[redhawk23]

The community aspect is actually one of the main appeals of church going life and one of the major drawbacks of not. Being a member of a congregation especially in a lot of rural areas is a major part of being socially integrated into your community. Say what you want about their religious beliefs but are you really going to question why they enjoy a regular meeting place and a community center both literally and figuratively?

 

[redhawk23]

Quite a few people ticked off in the New York/ New Jersey area about this billboard

What's funny is a very common rebuttle to this billboard is "why not use muhammed then" and calling the American Atheists cowards, as if not using a religious icon from the non-dominant culture on a billboard somehow undermines its point.

Even if these commenters do have a point, how many of them would even recognize Muhammed as they drove down the highway? Its not like you see pictures of him everyday.