Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

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Or...maybe that proves why we have religion. Man naturally feels the need to come together to share beliefs and that is what atheism has evolved into, a religion against religion...an anti-religion.
No. Atheism is closer to a political movement than a religious one. There is absolutely no inherent belief system in Atheism. It is purely a lack of belief.

The reason why Atheists are so outspoken is because religion still has a strong hold on most of the world. Despicable acts are still excused due to religion. We have people being denied rights in America due to opposition from the religious.

Don't try and turn it around on the Atheists.
 
To rephrase part of the point I was making in regards to referencing the founding of the scientific method itself along with the various scientific fields: Contrary to the common claim of atheists, science as we know it was founded within and flourished within Christian a Christian worldview and mindset. Not to mention that many many well regarded scientists are Christians.

This all flies in the face of the implied notion that embracing Christianity means a collapse of rational thought and scientific exploration.

“Religion and science” are sometimes analogized to “marriage and adultery” (:cwink:). It’s a plain fact that one can co-exist with the other; but co-existence is not the same thing as being conceptually compatible.

To the extent that religion is based on faith (belief without evidence) and revelation, it has nothing to teach science about methodology.

Also… Even though it had yet to be formalized into a “method,” a fair chunk of science predates Christianity. Look up the scientific accomplishments of the ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Egyptians, Aztecs, Chinese, Indians, etc.
 
This is the only god that there is, ever has been, or ever will be:

money_and_god.jpg


Believe what you want, but the truth is the truth. Spout all the Biblical verses you want, or quote Richard Dawkins to your hearts content. It doesn't matter, because they're both wrong. Money is the single most important thing that has ever existed, more important than God, or science, or anything else. MONEY IS GOD.

I really kinda find religion to be a joke, so that's my opinion on the subject. It's just irrational. But about your post, this. Hate it or love it is true. I would take it one step further though and say it's the fear behind money which makes it so powerful. Just like fear was used to make certain belief systems socially acceptable. RATM- Fear is your only god. Peace cosmic family.
 
“Religion and science” are sometimes analogized to “marriage and adultery” (:cwink:). It’s a plain fact that one can co-exist with the other; but co-existence is not the same thing as being conceptually compatible.

To the extent that religion is based on faith (belief without evidence) and revelation, it has nothing to teach science about methodology.

Also… Even though it had yet to be formalized into a “method,” a fair chunk of science predates Christianity. Look up the scientific accomplishments of the ancient Babylonians, Greeks, Egyptians, Aztecs, Chinese, Indians, etc.

I'm familiar with their accomplishments, look up that article I've referenced twice above which covers that aspect of the issue.

I think the number of major scientists I've pointed out already (including Einstein if one wants one from a more recent century) who have faith at the same time shows that faith and science are more than just antagonistically compatible as you're suggesting. That's the way many atheists would like to portray it, but it's not the reality.
 
Yeah, there are atheist who unduly lump all of the faithful into the category of the ignorant. But there is a chunk of the faithful (and no, it's not a fringe minority) they most certainly are enemies of reason and basic human decency.
 
Yeah, there are atheist who unduly lump all of the faithful into the category of the ignorant. But there is a chunk of the faithful (and no, it's not a fringe minority) they most certainly are enemies of reason and basic human decency.

My first thought was, I'd like to see your evidence to back up the bolded section of your statement. But then I realized, not only do I not think there is near sufficient evidence to do that, but even if you could do that it proves nothing. As has already been well stated by previous posters anything, no matter how good, can be used/misused to negative ends, that does not make the thing, in and of itself, bad or factually wrong.
 
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So I read Dr. John Millam's paper, and it makes a few interesting points here and there, but I thought it was fatally generalized and pretty thin. I'm not going to dissect the whole paper, but here's just one example:

8) The World has a beginning and ending. The Bible describes the creation of the universe (Genesis 1) and when God’s purposes for the universe are completed, it will be destroyed (2 Peter 3:10-13) and replaced by a perfect universe (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22; Revelations 21-22). This leads naturally to a linear view of history with its emphasis on cause and effect. Similarly, Christ’s work of redemption, His return, and the judgment at the end of time is once-and-for all (Hebrews 9:27-28) and so rules out reincarnation and cyclic views of history.

Can you make a more broadly generalized link than that?
 
I think the number of major scientists I've pointed out already (including Einstein if one wants one from a more recent century) who have faith at the same time shows that faith and science are more than just antagonistically compatible as you're suggesting. That's the way many atheists would like to portray it, but it's not the reality.

Is there a particular aspect of Christian theology that you think inspired the scientific method? I mean, is there something about observation, experiment, testing, replication of testing, measurement, modification and falsification that can be gleaned from, say, a specific Biblical passage?

Or do you just mean that science began to flourish within a Christian milieu? In which case (speaking of the scientific method), that may be correlation, not causation.

Also: you mentioned notable Christian scientists as well as Einstein. Of course, Einstein was ethnically Jewish. Moreover, he adamantly stated that he did not believe in a personal god. So he may not be the best example for your case.
 
I'm an atheist. Don't see the big deal some people make because of it, it's just those "War on Christmas" nutjobs that ruin it for us normal atheists. I don't hate religion by any means... except Scientology. **** that noise. I just don't give a flying **** about religion, I don't bother with it and it doesn't bother me or get in the way of my life.
 
I'm NOT Atheist, I just don't like organized religion and think its detrimental to people and society. I do think most organized religion can't stand up to logical scrutiny. If your going to believe that some old book is the word of god then just own up to it and say logic and reason just isn't your thing.

People should be free to believe what they like, just actually think it through. The majority of religious dogma deters critical thinking. Its a WAY of thinking that I don't like.

Conclusion (as belief) = Rationalizing/observation to back up conclusion.

rather than

Observation/Evidence = Conclusion.

Its just a backwards way to approach the world. There is no sense in trying to explain or rationalize religion. Its a non-rational approach by its very nature. Just own it and believe what you want. None of us know everything, but you should at least make an attempt to be logically consistent in what you believe, even if its only internal logic.
 
I think organized religion was the worst thing that ever happened to spirituality.
 
Is there a particular aspect of Christian theology that you think inspired the scientific method? I mean, is there something about observation, experiment, testing, replication of testing, measurement, modification and falsification that can be gleaned from, say, a specific Biblical passage?

That's what I would like to know.

I don't think that people pointing out a number of scientists being Christian serves any real credible point, particularly scientists from the 17th and 18th Century, as we've learned many things about the Universe since then.

And, if Christianity is to thank for modern science, why'd it take over 1700 years since the birth of of Christianity to develop the scientific method? These scientific ideas were in the bible all that time and no one picked up on it?
 
JAK®;21468975 said:
No. Atheism is closer to a political movement than a religious one. There is absolutely no inherent belief system in Atheism. It is purely a lack of belief.

The reason why Atheists are so outspoken is because religion still has a strong hold on most of the world. Despicable acts are still excused due to religion. We have people being denied rights in America due to opposition from the religious.

Don't try and turn it around on the Atheists.

Some atheists are actively trying to persuade others to abandon religion by showing them the 'truth' that there is no god(s). Atheist groups are putting up billboards, passing out pamphlets, and actively debating against theists on why they believe in not having a belief. Atheism today is revolving into a religion. Look at this thread. How many people in here are actively trying to show the light to the believers living in the dark?

There is an inherent belief system in atheism...the belief that there is no god. There is no proof or factual evidence that a deity of any sort does not exist. That is inherently a belief system.

I do agree that it resembles a political movement but a political movement stops when those that started the movement have achieved equal rights. Same thing could then be said for Martin Luther. So, that really isn't a differentiation from religion.

Oh stop with trying to make atheists the moral compass of the world and the theists the villains hiding behind religion. The nature of men is the inherent problem. Religion isn't the cause of strife in the world. Men are the cause of strife that then use religion as an excuse. Atheism has evolved far beyond trying to stop religious injustices in the world. We have to take the word 'God' out of the pledge. We have to punish the sports team that points up to the sky after a touchdown. We have to make sure we say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah to make sure we don't get sued. Like everything that starts off pure, it is hijacked by radicals. Look at you defending atheism with the tenacity of a religious yahoo. The moral of this story is to let everyone believe what they want to believe. No one is right or wrong here. Atheism is fine, theism is fine. Problems only rise when people try to tell others why they are wrong when there is no right or wrong (concerning religion or the lack thereof).

I have more problems with religion believe it or not. I would say I am a step above being an agnostic. I just hate the pathetic double standard in atheism because it is hidden so well in our over reactionary society. That double standard existed decades ago with religion. It shouldn't matter if our currency has the word 'God' on it. It shouldn't matter if someone wants to pray before a game. I don't care. I only care when it is being force fed to me and atheism has started to do that as well, just like religion.
 
Chase, I think you're paying too much attention to the false dramas created by the 24/7 mainstream news cycle.

Most atheists that I know and have read about do not care about a sports team pointing to the sky, or about the 'war on Christmas', etc.

I care about trying to change a society that thinks it is okay to teach creationism in a science class next to evolution.

I care about trying to change a society in which most the leading Republican candidates are the exact types of people who'd look to their religious beliefs to dictate policy, like teaching creationism in schools, teaching abstinence only sex education, etc.
 
My point is that there are are crazies on both sides and those crazies turn off everyone else. This is the atheism thread so I addressed atheism. I have addressed Christianity multiple times in the Christianity thread. You weren't around for the fun that was Moviefan2k4.
 
I don't mind when an overwhelming minority acts a little crazy. Sometimes it's the only way to be heard.


:ST: :ST: :ST:
 
You don't know that.

Sometimes it takes a "shot heard round the world".

"The squeaky wheel gets the oil."
"Stand up and be counted."
"Fortune favors the bold."
"We gotta take 'em one game at a time."

Oh wait. Strike that last one.

Got carried away.

:o


:cap: :cap: :cap:
 
4 main thoughts in response:

1) Clearly you missed that the first scientist I listed was Copernicus who was outside of "the age of enlightenment" by a couple hundred years
2) A major part of my point was that the scientific method itself as we know it was historically founded on aspects of the Christian worldview. Again I recommend, as I did above, googling Christianity and the Origin of Modern Science by Dr. John Millam. I think you'll find the full paper online.
3) The term "age of enlightenment" itself has come to be looked upon unfavorably by a number of academics in the same way that the term "the dark ages" has gone into disuse. Both were labels that have been found to be far too generalizing to the point of inaccuracy.
4) Your statement that "They were great thinkers in spite of their religion, not because of it" reveals that you inferring what you want to see onto the evidence. Just as the many Christian scientists nowadays would consider such a statement about them to be inaccurate and offensive so, likely, would all of the pillars of science mentioned above find it offensive. There is simply no evidence whatsoever that their beliefs were IN ANY WAY a hindrance to their scientific pursuits despite your unfounded assertion. Might I also point out that Einstein also, widely considered one of the greatest scientific minds of the 20th century, stated this:


"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."

— Prince Hubertus zu Löwenstein, Towards the Further Shore (Victor Gollancz, London, 1968), p. 156; quoted in Jammer, p. 97



Granted, Einstein was not a Christian, however he was also quite adamant that he was not an atheist and that it was specifically because of the orderliness that he observed in the cosmos (which fits in with what I mentioned above about the Christian worldview leading to the scientific method because of the underlying assumption that a God of order - as the Bible says He is - created a universe/creation of orderliness which can be observed and then thus understood and predicted)


1. Yeah, I missed him. Incidentally, it is Aristarchus of Samos who first discovered the idea of heliocentricity, not Copernicus.

2. Dr. Millam's paper, aside from being a propaganda piece, does little to advance the idea that the Bible directly supports free inquiry. After all, it took how many years for the church to free up their reins enough to allow for science to flourish? If these ideas were so apparent, why is a 21st century apologist expounding on them occurring in the 17th century? Why weren't these ideas discovered when the Christian religion had full power during the Early Middle Ages? Or even during the early days of the Church after the fall of the Roman Empire?

3. Unfortunately, during the Dark Ages, or Early Middle Ages if you prefer, very little to any scientific inquiry was advance or supported. Education was almost solely for the clergy or the wealthy. And those who were not Christian or did not adhere to the established dogma were considered heretic and imprisoned or put to death.

4. The early scientists you mentioned made scientific discoveries completely separate from their religious pursuits. Galileo was imprisoned by the Roman Inquisition and ordered to recant his heretic notions of a heliocentric solar system under threat of torture. Newton studied religious ideas that would have labeled him as a heretic as well had the Anglican Christian authorities known of his studies, none of which bore any productive results. His scientific studies were considered an afterthought by the man himself. The latter scientists who lived during the 17th and 18th century were allowed to flourish due to the Church losing its power and influence over free inquiry. If Christianity had such influence over the advancement of science, then why didn't it advance during those times when its power was at its fullest. Something Dr. Millam doesn't explain because he is Christian, and these facts are troubling to his overall agenda.

There were many discoveries made earlier than that time, but they were not allowed to advance because of the dogma forced on the populace by the Church.

Think about this. The Romans and Greeks left behind the pinnacle of scientific thought and technology of the time, after the fall of the Roman Empire. Greek mathematics, logic, science and medicine, and Roman aqueducts, roads and their own improvements in science, all left in the dust and ruin when the Christians came into power. The article mentioned the discoveries of other cultures, but those early Christian "scientists" didn't discover them or improve upon their findings due to Christianity's supposedly unyielding nature of free thought and inquiry that certainly advanced the idea of modern scientific thought. Did it?

If science owes so much to Christianity, then we should be far more advanced than our current level of technology since Christianity had so much influence for so long, and they had the shoulders of giants to stand upon.

It's going to take more than apologetic diatribe to rationalize that. This is nothing more than modern apologists revising history to the credit of their religion. It's easy to look upon history and put your own spin on it to advance an idea you desire. But the facts and lack of any real fruits from Christianity's highest moments of influence take the wind out of the sails of this one.
 
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I'm stumped at the utter stupidity of his videos. It's probably not a good idea to make a video detailing the stupidity of atheists, then proceed to make idiotic comments on a scientific idea that is also shared by religious scientists and make a load of ignorant comments about it, and then call those who may not even share an acceptance to that idea, stupid.

Honestly, if creationists want to impress, post videos that detail evidence for a competing theory of biodiversity that is in line with their theology.
 
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