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Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

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That was the dumbest link I've ever read. I do find it funny that creationists and/or fundies are always trying to disrove evolution. The funny thing is that there is an abundance of proof for evolution, but no proof for the existance of YHWH. All they have is a silly little book filled with fables.

Also, can someone tell me how a deity can love? Theists are always claiming that Yahweh is a loving god, but I don't see how that's possible. How can an invisible entity have the human emotion love?

Your first paragraph is bald assertion but with no content. Of course creationists attempt to disprove evolution, the fact that they believe in creationism means they believe evolution to be wrong. (By the way, the many scientists in many fields all with doctorates that for some reason are all collectively laughed at for this disagreement with the status quo strikes me as interesting).

Your second paragraph is an interesting question. Though my question would be why WOULDN'T God have the same emotions that He gave to the humans that He created in His own image?
 
I think that creationists are goal post movers, who hold evolution up to an entirely different standard of evidence than they hold their own believe of creationism.

Creationism is a religious belief, not a scientific theory.

Creationists start out with the believe that they are correct, rather than allowing the facts to form their view.
 

Sounds like an excuse to dodge scrutiny of their junk science. It's like a gangster complaining that the police won't acknowledge the debt of one of his "clients". In both cases both people know they have no chance in a legit arena because they realize their methods go against the standard of that arena. In the case of these Abrahamic creationist their mistake was trying to put their relious baggage into the field of science, but in science you can't stubbornly assume your conclusion without any scrutiny-like a religion- and then look for evidence to back it up. It's the other way around, and even then you must make sure your conclusion doesn't conflict with any other evidence in other fields of science.

Which, unfornately for them, a literal interpretation of the Old Testament just doesn't hold up. Many archaeologist agree with Israel Finklestein that the OT shouldn't be read seriously as history until around Kings, and even then, there are many things that are exaggerated as proven by his archaeological findings.
 
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Scientists will be the first to admit that the peer-review process is not perfect, but that it does, on the whole, keep the quality of papers submitted up. Many Creationist scientists do actually publish scientifically grounded papers, very few of them having much to do with Creation. I firmly believe that the main reason Creationists have problems getting Creationist-centric papers published is that they're of poor quality scientifically, not because they're Creationist.

The article compares the problems scientists had during the climate debacle with Creationists who had articles criticizing Evolution and the BBT. Of course, there is a vast gulf of difference in what each subject is covering and the political implications.

The other issue, especially on Creation.com, is the lack of Scientists who write articles in their chosen field. Can they not round up a hoard of biologists to write on the subject of Evolution instead of Veterinarians? I mean, really?

The issue with Creationists in regard to discovery is that in order to belong to the club, they must accept this predetermined conclusion. The evidence, the experiments, and the findings all must point in one direction and one direction only. That is not free inquiry, nor is it good science. It also discounts the many Christians who work in the field of science, and accept findings based on the evidence and an open mind to allow that evidence to lead them where it may. Creationists cannot do that. They must accept a particular paradigm or not be Creationists, and it leads all of their conclusions.

As laypeople, we do not have the training and education that Scientists in these fields possess, so when we visit these sites for information, we submit to those we deem more experienced and that tend to represent our own views. The comparison of sites becomes a 'they say/we say' debate with no real ground covered or progress made. I have knowledge in Geology, so when I go to a young earth Creationist site or read articles that support a global flood, I can catch the errors because I've studied the strata, the mechanics and I understand what a young earth or strata laid down by a massive flood would resemble. I'm not trying to support a predefined conclusion, I am simply looking at the layers with a somewhat trained eye.

When you hit newsgroups that feature Scientists who are in these fields, you see that there is no such confusion among them when they read these articles or debate with Creationists. They know what is wrong and the errors in the Science presented. There you see how scientifically inept their arguments are and how much they lack in terms of evidence.

I don't necessarily support that a majority means credibility, but less that .15 percent of relevant Scientists support Creationism in the US alone. You would think that number would be much higher if Evolution had so many legitimate problems. You would think there would be no Christian Scientists who support the theory.

I would not bother to send a debate opponent to a site that features Veterinarians writing on genetics or mechanical engineers writing on Geology. If you can't post an article from a scientist relevant to the subject being discussed, why bother posting one at all?
 
I think that creationists are goal post movers, who hold evolution up to an entirely different standard of evidence than they hold their own believe of creationism.

Creationism is a religious belief, not a scientific theory.

Creationists start out with the believe that they are correct, rather than allowing the facts to form their view.

This is the Statement of Faith from Creation.com. As you can see, they have a predetermined framework within which all inquiry must adhere. How anyone can think that this represents honest and open Scientific processes is beyond me. Why not allow the evidence to lead them if the evidence supports their conclusion?
 
The Christian creation story can be debunked by the fact that the Earth and light are created for the stars, sun, and moon are. Since this a complete scientific fallacy, the whole Bible has to be crap.

Messed-Up Bible Stories 1-2: Adam and Eve
 
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Because one symbolic detail is off, the entire thing is crap? Not just "untrue", but "crap"?
 
There's a lot more that's off with the bible than one single symbolic detail.
 
Still, does it being untrue change the values of the lessons inside?
 
The bible is untrue AND immoral.

Job having sex with his daughters, offering one of his daughters to be gang raped.

The bible is full of crap.
 
Immoral? Really? 'Cause to me that seems like just cultural differences being expressed there.

And you're not backing up your claims of the Bible being "full of crap" at all.
 
The Christian creation story can be debunked by the fact that the Earth and light are created for the stars, sun, and moon are. Since this a complete scientific fallacy, the whole Bible has to be crap.

Messed-Up Bible Stories 1-2: Adam and Eve


I wouldn't say that. There is a collection of good parables and poems that give one a guide for living. There are historical accuracies to go along with the embellishments. It is history according to the Hebrews. It is certainly not a book of science, nor is it a completely moral book, and it's historical value must be scrutinized before acceptance. It's a collection of manuscripts that detail a Hebrew view of the world and their place in it. I don't think it was ever meant for Westerners although we have certainly laid claim to it.
 
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Still, does it being untrue change the values of the lessons inside?

No you can still go and still stone your son for disrespecting you, commit genocide because someone does agree with your point of view and has resources you have, and also make endless animal species go extinct just to wipe out man in a flood.

But seriously, most of the morals in the Bible that are not telling you what god to believe in can stay if they pertain every day secular life.
 
Immoral? Really? 'Cause to me that seems like just cultural differences being expressed there.

And you're not backing up your claims of the Bible being "full of crap" at all.


So, just a question, is morality relative then? If so what is the worth of the bible as moral guide?
 
Hey guys, just wanting to clear up a mistaken report I made a few months back. You may remember that I was quite disappointed that I thought that the Harvard Humanist Chaplaincy's Life Time Achievement Award in Cultural Humanism was being given to Seth McFarlane.

I was wrong. The award McFarlane received was "Humanist of the Year" (still bunk).

The 2011 Lifetime Achievement award actually went to Steven Frye, which I personally find far more acceptable.

He gave a fantastic acceptance speech (which admittedly is quite long). I would post it but he drops several F bombs. I recommend anyone seeking it out though.
 
So, just a question, is morality relative then? If so what is the worth of the bible as moral guide?

I would say that morality is relative depending on a person's view of it. Thus the bible as a moral compass would have the same limitation. If a person is looking for something in a book that is as open to interpretation as the bible, they are going to find what they are looking for. Really, if you are a good person, then books or no books you will act accordingly.
IMO.
 
So, just a question, is morality relative then?

No. As a practical matter, it’s not always easy to define what the moral absolutes are – though we have made some progress in the last few hundred years. And to the extent that we continue to make progress, those moral insights are not relative; they apply to everyone, everywhere. They are not relative to a country or a culture.
 
So, just a question, is morality relative then? If so what is the worth of the bible as moral guide?

Some morality is relative according to the bible. there are "personal sins"...things not in the bible and are based per person.

some examples... a person feels very strongly that it's wrong to eat meat, but for whatever reason eats meat anyway. they've committed a sin against their own will.

Things of that nature are relative as they are different for different people.
 
Immoral? Really? 'Cause to me that seems like just cultural differences being expressed there.

And you're not backing up your claims of the Bible being "full of crap" at all.

Well, I can use reason and logic to discuss morality in an objective and subjective way and show that cultural differences or the fact that it took place so long ago still wouldn't make acts in the bible moral.

But you've outright stated in the past that you don't think reason and logic should be brought into it at all.

The problem is that when you switch off the reason and logic in your brain, you can justify and excuse just about anything. Like offering up your daughter for gang rape, or having the willingness to sacrifice the life of your son to a God that demands unquestioning worship.

Cthulhu, the God of the bible, to me are both fictional evil deities.
 
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Morality isn't relative. There is right and wrong. People just lump too much into their personal views of what counts as morality. Things like incest or cannibalism might be unappealing to us, but that's due to our culture and how we were raised. To say that a culture that features these is inherently immoral is bigoted to an extreme.

Also, good job to everyone for missing the point. :up:
 
The problem is that when you switch off the reason and logic in your brain, you can justify and excuse just about anything. Like offering up your daughter for gang rape, or having the willingness to sacrifice your son.

PLEASE. Link me to where I said that. PLEASE. I'd LOVE to see this.
 
Morality isn't relative. There is right and wrong. People just lump too much into their personal views of what counts as morality. Things like incest or cannibalism might be unappealing to us, but that's due to our culture and how we were raised. To say that a culture that features these is inherently immoral is bigoted to an extreme.

Also, good job to everyone for missing the point. :up:



Well the question at hand is, are they immoral then? Let's unpack that. I'd argue that slavery is immoral. That has certainly been taught to me as part of the socialization process into modern American culture, but does that mean that it is not immoral? Cultural differences aside, might some of these things in bible be objectively immoral?

Are objective ethics even possible?

Also if we can just ignore things from the bible and just say they don't apply to our culture, how infallible is it really? Who is to say which parts are metaphorical or not?
 
He's mistakenly misinterpreting some of your earlier posts, but you have said that reason shouldn't be applied to analyzing religious beliefs.
 
You said it, buddy. It was like a big red flag saying, "here is a person that you won't be able to reason with in matters of religion". I'm busy eating some sweet pasta I just made. Gonna watch some Battlestar.
 
Well the question at hand is, are they immoral then? Let's unpack that. I'd argue that slavery is immoral. That has certainly been taught to me as part of the socialization process into modern American culture, but does that mean that it is not immoral? Cultural differences aside, might some of these things in bible be objectively immoral?

Are objective ethics even possible?

Also if we can just ignore things from the bible and just say they don't apply to our culture, how infallible is it really? Who is to say which parts are metaphorical or not?

Morals are related to well being if you agree with Sam Harris, which I do at least on the basics. This is problematic when dealing with the bible if others are taking it seriously. As soon as you throw heaven and hell into the mix, well being on earth takes a back seat. Suddenly actions that would improve a persons well being on earth can be trumped by different actions that improve a persons well being in the afterlife since that would obviously be more important were it a likely reality.
 
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