Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 2

[Godsfireworks]

This seems like a complete non-sequitur. Many other families have faced similar problems without the need to worship or ask assistance from any God. Your personal experiences; however life changing they may be, does not grant credence to the claim that God exists.

I'm well aware of that fact, I was just giving my own experience and why he exists to me.

 

[-Arya-]

But all of this is implausible because as sperm we don't have a developed brain to make conscious decisions like that. We are pretty much born out of chance, out of millions of other sperm, it all miraculous to me. But never has Science explained to why we have consciouses and are so unique and different. As human we are stubborn, because most just can't accept that there are things outside the box, things that our mind just can't process, we are basically limited to our Brain. And our imaginations, wow. We can imagine anything we set our minds to. This is the wonderful and useful tools for artists, thats why we got all these futuristic movies with these special effects, and these movies with advanc technology, our imaginations allow us to create these images, but in reality, they will most likely never come true.


I know this huge wall of text might be just nonsense, but this is my opinion. Think about it though, Science tells us that we are here by some random chance. The first living thing on Earth was a little tiny cell that over billions and billions of years multiplied and evolved into species and those species evolved and evolved until now we have Humans the ultimate evolved species, the only species on the planet with gift of conscious, the Brain capacity of knowledge. Is this all just one big random act of chance, or is there out that has more meaning to the purpose that we just don't know yet, or maybe can't know.

All in all, none of this crap makes sense so I'm just sticking with something that does. Which is Cristianity, and now I will patiently wait for the smart guy to come and completely destroy everything I just said

Oh well

Though there are still questions to be answered with regards to consciousness we at least now have a rudimentary understanding of what it is and how it emerges. Despite your claim that science has nothing to say about conscious experience, the fields of neuroscience and psychology are getting closer and closer to answering this question everyday.

Your statement about humans being the only species with consciousness is flawed. There have been experiments performed with other mammalian species (dolphins, elephants, and primates most notably) which demonstrate that they may in fact be conscious; they can be the subject of their own attention (self-awareness in other words). Questions are still present and the proper remedy for this is to do more scientific inquiry; not to make assumptions with little evidence. It is also a little premature to assume that humans are "the" most evolved species based solely on the fact that we have consciousness or that we can build cars and utilize other forms of technology. In fact, there are very good reasons to doubt that statement. Once again, the reasons can be found within the vast experimental literature in psychological science.

 

[Sloth7d]

I see things not just from a human perspective...but I try to look at the big picture universally as well as from a spiritual perspective.

Pain and suffering are a part of life. I believe they are an important part of it. Through pain and suffering we evolve and learn. What at the moment seems like a horrible event and you can't understand why it would even be allowed to happen will in time become clear. there could be a reason for it or it could just be another opportunity to grow and become more than what you are now.

The big picture is important. If we only see things from a limited mortal human view...we are just shoving our own mind in a tiny box.

That is why to me...the question of "Why does God allow X to happen" is a ridiculous question.

(oh and this is coming from someone who's had to face a lot of real challenges. My dad had cancer once just to name a few)

You say it's a ridiculous question yet you argue from a position that makes God out to be either malevolent or not all-powerful. For either it is the case that he had no way of revealing these learning experiences to us in ways other than pain, thus limiting the extent of his power, or he could give us all that we need to learn without suffering but chose not. Since I'm pretty sure you believe God is both these things [both All-Powerful and All-Loving] it seems quite a legitimate question to ask rather than ridiculous. Personally, I doubt anyone can truly reconcile the idea of Suffering and an All-Powerful, All-Loving God existing simultaneously. Through pure reason it's plain to see that one of those concepts has to give.

 

[Thundercrack85]

This is why you will never understand. You have to look beyond yourself. Until someone understands that fully...they will never "get" Christianity.

I guess i should be grateful I don't.

 

[redhawk23]

http://jezebel.com/5864303/people-think-atheists-are-just-as-bad-as-rapists-christ


Religious folk trust atheists about as far as they trust rapists...because of course the only reason to be truthful is fear of God's wrath.

 

[redhawk23]

For us EVERYTHING fits into the "deity's" plan. Now you seem to think that we all have our perfect solutions and answers as to why. the answer to that assumption is no. Sometimes we have no idea why God would let these horrific things happen. Now you might say that our uncertainty reveals how unstable our faith is, but on the contrary, it actually strengthens it, at least that's what we believe. What is your faith if your just blindly following something? There has to be a certain aspect of questioning involved.

So everything fits into God's plan? Everything? So we're just acting out God's plan then? When people do horrible things that part of the plan? If you believe in hell, are those people pre-determined to go to hell then? A number of Christians make claims to doings God's work, but if everything is already part of the plan, then everyone is.

 

[Thundercrack85]

http://jezebel.com/5864303/people-think-atheists-are-just-as-bad-as-rapists-christ


Religious folk trust atheists about as far as they trust rapists...because of course the only reason to be truthful is fear of God's wrath.

Guess that puts atheists and priests in the same boat.

 

[redhawk23]

Also you can make the argument that pain and suffering allow people to grow that its all part of Gods plan but often time that pain inhibts people from growing, either as a person or literally killing them. Also what about the sources of that pain? It maybe part of God's plan, but then again often the source of the pains in our life are rooted in human action that the bible defines as sin, which you can be punished for.

Much of the pain in the world is not necessary.

 

[bunk]

I see things not just from a human perspective...but I try to look at the big picture universally as well as from a spiritual perspective.

Pain and suffering are a part of life. I believe they are an important part of it. Through pain and suffering we evolve and learn. What at the moment seems like a horrible event and you can't understand why it would even be allowed to happen will in time become clear. there could be a reason for it or it could just be another opportunity to grow and become more than what you are now.

The big picture is important. If we only see things from a limited mortal human view...we are just shoving our own mind in a tiny box.

That is why to me...the question of "Why does God allow X to happen" is a ridiculous question.

(oh and this is coming from someone who's had to face a lot of real challenges. My dad had cancer once just to name a few)

You may try to see things from a different point of view, but ultimately you're always viewing everything through a human's perspective, like it or not. I could pretend to see life as a god might, but it would only be my human imagination at work. Our imagination may be what makes us unique more than anything else, but there's no reason to think for even one moment it can double as a supernatural gift.

 

[Thundercrack85]

If that's god's plan, it sure sucks for the people who die. But hey, as long as it teaches you a lesson.

 

[redhawk23]

Guess that puts atheists and priests in the same boat.

OH SNAP!

 

[DBryan]

So everything fits into God's plan? Everything? So we're just acting out God's plan then? When people do horrible things that part of the plan? If you believe in hell, are those people pre-determined to go to hell then? A number of Christians make claims to doings God's work, but if everything is already part of the plan, then everyone is.

It's got a lot of holes in it, for sure.

The problem I have with the reasoning - "we're mortals, us mere mortals cannot understand God's plan, God works in mysterious ways"

Is that its essentially saying, don't think about it too hard.

I struggle to put this into words that aren't offensive but... its just, its a real lazy way of thinking about the world.

 

[Sloth7d]

It's got a lot of holes in it, for sure.

The problem I have with the reasoning - "we're mortals, us mere mortals cannot understand God's plan, God works in mysterious ways"

Is that its essentially saying, don't think about it too hard.

I struggle to put this into words that aren't offensive but... its just, its a real lazy way of thinking about the world.

Which is why I think Ayn Rand put it best when she wrote:

... God, a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive- a definition that invalidates man's consciousness and nullifies his concepts of existence...Man's mind, say the mystics of spirit, must be subordinated to the will of God... Man's standard of value, say the mystics of spirit, is the pleasure of God, whose standards are beyond man's power of comprehension and must be accepted on faith....The purpose of man's life...is to become an abject zombie who serves a purpose he does not know, for reasons he is not to question.

When you really put it in perspective, it really is silly. Sillier, still, is the common notion many monotheist have that God is perfect. Which seems rather silly that "mysterious" or "incomprehensible" would be considered perfect qualities of some kind. Mystery is an advantage to those who have weaknesses, is it not? Thus it is better that not everthing be known about them, or perhaps better still, it would be better they hide their where-abouts completely if they're that vulnerable. To be incomprehensible is to show an inability to make yourself understood, something even the scholars of the most jargon riddled craft can make accessible to the lay man. Thanks to Stephen Hawking and others, theists can't get atheists to shut up about Quantum Mechanics despite QM's complex nature. And if this is the nature of what it is to be "mysterious" and "incomprehensible", rather, wouldn't a perfect being be perfectly "known" and perfectly "comprehensible" instead?

It's why apologetic responses do nothing for me. I feel like modern day monotheists have turned God into this paradoxical concept that presents a new problem in it's design every time a new apologetic response is given.

 

[bunk]

It's got a lot of holes in it, for sure.

The problem I have with the reasoning - "we're mortals, us mere mortals cannot understand God's plan, God works in mysterious ways"

Is that its essentially saying, don't think about it too hard.

I struggle to put this into words that aren't offensive but... its just, its a real lazy way of thinking about the world.

Yes; his ways can either be mysterious or perfectly understood, depending on what is needed at the time. No one can know the mind of god, but there's something wrong with you if you aren't constantly pretending to do so. It's all part of god's plan, unless the plan involves something distasteful like same sex marriage. God never gives a person more than they can handle… until they die of AIDS at age one.

Not only is this type of thinking lazy, it's reprehensible.

 

[Lighthouse]

Quite a few people ticked off in the New York/ New Jersey area about this billboard

And they absolutely should be ticked off. I find it incredibly insulting and condescending. Poseidon is real damn you! He's real!!!

 

[Bat-Mite]

Mystery is an advantage to those who have weaknesses, is it not? Thus it is better that not everthing be known about them, or perhaps better still, it would be better they hide their where-abouts completely if they're that vulnerable.

 

[8wid]

Fox News: Outrage Over Rhode Island's 'Holiday Tree'

Why do Christians think they own the concept of decorating a tree for a holiday? They took the idea from pagans anyway. Pagans still decorate Yule trees in the same way. People put lights in pine trees all year round for various reasons, especially fairgrounds.

When is the "War on Christmas" finally going to be called the "War on Everyone who is Not a Christian?"

 

[8wid]

Fox News: Outrage Over Rhode Island's 'Holiday Tree'

Why do Christians think they own the concept of decorating a tree for a holiday? They took the idea from pagans anyway. Pagans still decorate Yule trees in the same way. People put lights in pine trees all year round for various reasons, especially fairgrounds.

When is the so called "War on Christmas" finally going to be called the "War on Everyone who is Not a Christian?!" Why don't non-theists, even those who follow Jesus Christ who are not religious though, go and boycott church charities for the holiday season? It sounds just as polite to me.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Fox News idiocy aside, Holiday Tree just sounds nauseatingly politically correct. Let's be honest, nobody in the United States is putting lights on trees in December for pagan reasons. Call it what it is. This is obviously a Christmas tree.

Yes, I know that pagans and some Europeans celebrate yule. But I really doubt they're putting yule trees in the statehouse of Rhode Island.

 

[chaseter]

A Menorah should be renamed the Holiday 2 1/3 Candelabra

 

[chaseter]

dbl

 

[Bill]

This is a nice attempt at damage control, but it contradicts the facts. It's not as if kaypain's post focusing on salvation was abnormal. This is par for the course when it comes to advocates of Christianity. I mean, the verse from the Bible that's probably the most quoted is John 3:16.
Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
You HAVE to believe in Jesus to have "eternal life." If you don't, you "perish." What about that isn't fear mongering?

I have to wonder why God instigated a set of conditions which required Him to come down and bother impregnating a woman because He needed a worthy sacrifice to appease himself and save the human race from itself.

That Christians still manage to believe despite the inane ridiculousness of such a set of circumstances, it's no wonder debate proves so fruitless.

 

[8wid]

Using Common Sense to Debunk Evolution - CBN.com

This is why education about the real nature of evolution is crucial!

 

[Bill]

Using Common Sense to Debunk Evolution - CBN.com

This is why education about the real nature of evolution is crucial!

I doubt you'd ever see Ray Comfort post videos of someone who could properly answer his questions.

 

[Art_of_Crime]

the min issue i see with either side of the argument is that you are asking someone who lets their beliefs define them admit that they might be wrong. you miht as well ask them to start speaking a different language