Atheism: Love it or Leave it? - Part 3

[KalMart]

Look, all i'm asking you to do is give me some examples of what you consider the positives of religion so that I can consider them... like you said you wanted me too.

Honestly, I think it's better to as a person who is deeply religious to provide yo with them, and invite you to experience them...if you're open to it. If you are, then it's a good start, I believe, towards eventually being a better place as an atheist as well.

Yes, I consider that the negatives of religion outway the positives. I have never seen an example of religion doing anywhere near as much good as it has bad.

You want me to consider them fairly. See the balance of 'good' and 'bad', or 'pros' and 'cons' to religion, then can you please tell me what these pros are that you speak of. That you want to me to consider for the sake of fairness.

Again...just an example...

If your hope is simply for guidance and assistance in leading a fulfilling life here on earth, a “way of living” without firm beliefs in any supernatural being may well be all you need. But many religions, including mainline versions of Christianity and Islam, promise much more. They promise ultimate salvation. If we are faithful to their teachings, they say, we will be safe from final annihilation when we die and will be happy eternally in our life after death.

If our hope is for salvation in this sense — and for many that is the main point of religion—then this hope depends on certain religious beliefs’ being true. In particular, for the main theistic religions, it depends on there being a God who is good enough to desire our salvation and powerful enough to achieve it.

...if people truly believe that they find this through religion, can we dismiss religion, or not appreciate their search for it even if we don't share that same need?

If you want to find the good in it...you have to want it...or at least respect the need for it with some, even if you don't.

And also, I think it's important to understand the ultimate blame for the atrocities you've mentioned on the people committing them and their usage of religion as an excuse or enabler, not necessarily on religion itself. I.e., it's not there to inspire war and acts of evil, but it is a powerful thing to be misused (like much in science as well) for hose very human things. So perhaps instead of calling religion a bad thing, maybe a thing that's too good at being influential and emotionally convincing....which again puts the onus on us and our usage of it.

 

[enterthemadness]

After thinking it over off/on...believe it was K-Mart that asked the question, but my answer is that...the only or well, the best thing about religion is it's hope of an afterlife. To be immortal. But I dunno if there's an afterlife like that, heaven, hell, purgatory. Maybe reincarnation...but I've never been big on that. Basically cause would I lose my memories from this life? Would I be a mantis in the next life? those things scare me. Now don't get me wrong, in the past I've mostly believed there was a Heaven & a hell. With my different views, evolving...um...I guess I'm open to that, but I'm not gonna bet on it.

 

[ALP]

After thinking it over off/on...believe it was K-Mart that asked the question, but my answer is that...the only or well, the best thing about religion is it's hope of an afterlife. To be immortal. But I dunno if there's an afterlife like that, heaven, hell, purgatory. Maybe reincarnation...but I've never been big on that. Basically cause would I lose my memories from this life? Would I be a mantis in the next life? those things scare me. Now don't get me wrong, in the past I've mostly believed there was a Heaven & a hell. With my different views, evolving...um...I guess I'm open to that, but I'm not gonna bet on it.

That's true. Reincarnation always seemed strange to me, but I never put much thought into it either. I like to think our souls become one with the earth or the cosmos. But I don't really believe in a conscious afterlife with the Rat Pack singing the blues in a white suit.

Despite not believing in it, I find the Hindu religion very fascinating. My favorite part about religion is the art lol

Btw, you have the single greatest avvy EVER. Adventure Time is my favorite showt:

 

[KalMart]

After thinking it over off/on...believe it was K-Mart that asked the question, but my answer is that...the only or well, the best thing about religion is it's hope of an afterlife. To be immortal. But I dunno if there's an afterlife like that, heaven, hell, purgatory. Maybe reincarnation...but I've never been big on that. Basically cause would I lose my memories from this life? Would I be a mantis in the next life? those things scare me. Now don't get me wrong, in the past I've mostly believed there was a Heaven & a hell. With my different views, evolving...um...I guess I'm open to that, but I'm not gonna bet on it.

That's also pretty much the only thing that makes me want to believe in a religion, emotionally. I want to feel, not so much for myself, but that the loved ones that I lose somehow carry on after they pass...that a conscious essence of some sort lives on and is even aware of me in my mortal existence. Intellectually, it's not as sensible...but emotionally, I cannot deny that I want to feel and even believe that.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Honestly, I think it's better to as a person who is deeply religious to provide yo with them, and invite you to experience them...if you're open to it. If you are, then it's a good start, I believe, towards eventually being a better place as an atheist as well.

Again...just an example...

...if people truly believe that they find this through religion, can we dismiss religion, or not appreciate their search for it even if we don't share that same need?

If you want to find the good in it...you have to want it...or at least respect the need for it with some, even if you don't.

So I should see the fact that religion gives people 'what they want' in terms of telling them fairytales that help them sleep at night, as a positive?

In terms of belief in an afterlife of some kind, I do understand that. I would not think it cruel to tell a dying man that he is about to go 'to a better place' if that is what he believed. I would think that kind.

But neither religion, nor belief in a God or Gods is required to believe in an afterlife.

Salvation on the other hand, yeah you need God for that.

But is people feeling better about themselves because they think all will be forgiven at the end if they embrace God, really a positive thing?

You know the people that really feel the positive effects of the promise of Salvation?

People who've done something wrong.

And when you've done something wrong, you SHOULD feel bad about it. You SHOULD feel guilty. Cause that's a sign that you're a good person.

And if you're really good, you'll do everything you can to make up for whatever it is you've done if at all possible, and maybe that will make you feel better.

But why should I see people embracing a false promise of 'If you say your sorry to God, what you did doesn't matter, everything will turn out fine' as a positive.

It is a cheat. It's a way of people alleviating their guilt and anxieties about the things they feel badly about, without ACTUALLY facing them.

And also, I think it's important to understand the ultimate blame for the atrocities you've mentioned on the people committing them and their usage of religion as an excuse or enabler, not necessarily on religion itself. I.e., it's not there to inspire war and acts of evil, but it is a powerful thing to be misused (like much in science as well) for hose very human things. So perhaps instead of calling religion a bad thing, maybe a thing that's too good at being influential and emotionally convincing....which again puts the onus on us and our usage of it.

I agree with what your saying, but the truth is that as long as there is religion, bad people are going to use it and abuse it.

So it would be better if there was none at all.

Because for the small amount of good that religion manages to do, it's just simply not enough to justify all the bad that comes with it IMO.

For example, just finished watching Machine Gun Preacher.

Now there's a film that shows a lot of the good religion can do. Christianity turns a mans life around. He goes from drug addiction and crime, to successful business and charity work and protecting children in Sudan. Surely that'd be enough for me to say 'Okay, religion isn't all bad'.

But then you realise that all those children he's protecting, wouldn't be in danger if it weren't for religion. The dead kid he holds in his arms after he gets blown up in front of him, would still be alive. The pile of bodies of children that he left behind, who were all slaughtered by the rebels... they'd be alive too. The screaming and crying of orphans standing over their dead parents, well that wouldn't be happening if it weren't for the insanity that is the darkest side of religion. (In this case, the Lord's Resistance Army, lead by a man proclaiming to be the word of God, killing, kidnapping, raping all in the name of religion).

No, that's not all religion is.

But the fact that religion has a dark side that henious, that dangerous, makes me want to eradicate it from the face of the earth... regardless of the fact that it might help some drug addicts get clean, or makes people feel better about their 'sins'.

 

[KalMart]

So I should see the fact that religion gives people 'what they want' in terms of telling them fairytales that help them sleep at night, as a positive?

If that's the absolute fundamental assessment you have of religion on a personal level, then again, you've already persecuted it. Congrats, I guess.

In terms of belief in an afterlife of some kind, I do understand that. I would not think it cruel to tell a dying man that he is about to go 'to a better place' if that is what he believed. I would think that kind.

I also think it's very important for some who aren't dying to believe as well. But yeah...it's certainly a big tasty carrot to dangle in front of the horse...or at least the promise of one.

I agree with what your saying, but the truth is that as long as there is religion, bad people are going to use it and abuse it.

So it would be better if there was none at all.

But religion isn't alone in that vulnerability to misuse, bad people will also continue to use science for bad things too...doesn't mean that science is bad or has no value moving forward, or that it would be better if there were none at all. We could also remove money and technology...all motivators or facilitators in committing violence and crime/greed in both the religious and non-religious.

The essential fact is that as long as humans are around, evil we be committed...so if we're not going to get rid of humans (which would certainly solve that), we probably can't just remove religion from the fabric of our existence. I think it could stand to evolve more and become even fairer and more sensible itself. But to dismiss it outright is too simplistic an outlook on it.

 

[mara]

So I should see the fact that religion gives people 'what they want' in terms of telling them fairytales that help them sleep at night, as a positive?

In terms of belief in an afterlife of some kind, I do understand that. I would not think it cruel to tell a dying man that he is about to go 'to a better place' if that is what he believed. I would think that kind.

You reminded me of a movie called The Ledge. When the guy was asked what he would say to a child dying of cancer that asked if there was a heaven, and the atheist replied that he would say yes.... Good movie.

 

[Thundercrack85]

If someone told me that I would go to place where I would have no freedom, and be forced to worship something for all eternity. Or as Hitchens put it, a celestial North Korea. Yeah, I'd want to live a lot more.

Course, our definitions of a "better place" may vary greatly.

 

[KalMart]

You reminded me of a movie called The Ledge. When the guy was asked what he would say to a child dying of cancer that asked if there was a heaven, and the atheist replied that he would say yes.... Good movie.

What if the kid knew he was an atheist?

 

[KalMart]

If someone told me that I would go to place where I would have no freedom, and be forced to worship something for all eternity. Or as Hitchens put it, a celestial North Korea. Yeah, I'd want to live a lot more.

Course, our definitions of a "better place" may vary greatly.

All I'd want to know is if there's beer.

And....are you allowed to date in Heaven?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

But religion isn't alone in that vulnerability to misuse, bad people will also continue to use science for bad things too...doesn't mean that science is bad or has no value moving forward, or that it would be better if there were none at all. We could also remove money and technology...all motivators or facilitators in committing violence and crime/greed in both the religious and non-religious.

The essential fact is that as long as humans are around, evil we be committed...so if we're not going to get rid of humans (which would certainly solve that), we probably can't just remove religion from the fabric of our existence. I think it could stand to evolve more and become even fairer and more sensible itself. But to dismiss it outright is too simplistic an outlook on it.

No one is saying that getting rid of religion would rid the world of all evil

It'd just rid the world of some of the unneccesary evil, or at least the self righteous justification for it.

And since I don't think there is anything religion provides us with that outweighs the benefits of ridding ourselves of it's downsides, I think we could very easily do without it.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with people just having their own beliefs!

Why is it that everyone has to choose from a handful of already layed out ones? Why can't everyone just develop their own, based not on what they've been TOLD to believe is true, but what they feel is true. Why do people have this need to get together and all agree on a belief in order to validate it, and then look down on others who don't feel the same way?

 

[KalMart]

No one is saying that getting rid of religion would rid the world of all evil

It'd just rid the world of some of the unneccesary evil, or at least the self righteous justification for it.

As long as you're also asking to get rid of some science, secularism, and other things that facilitate evil, too. Like all research into alternative energy since it leads to nuclear weapons, medicine that leads to drug abuse, etc..

You don't see or appreciate the benefits more than the pratfalls in religion because you don't seek it, and you can't fault someone for seeking it. Yes, it's wrong for them go after the rights of those who feel differently et al, but again, that's not purely unique to religion so we can't just single it out even if you think it 'leads the pack'. We've need it that way, so it's the practitioners more than the practice.

And since I don't think there is anything religion provides us with that outweighs the benefits of ridding ourselves of it's downsides, I think we could very easily do without it.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with people just having their own beliefs!

Or just do without its downsides and not require the positives to go with it. If you can't do that, then you must respect the costs of removing the positives as well for those who do give them more weight, even if you don't agree.

Why is it that everyone has to choose from a handful of already layed out ones? Why can't everyone just develop their own, based not on what they've been TOLD to believe is true, but what they feel is true.

Maybe this IS what many have already developed their own over the eons, and they feel good about sticking with it.

Why do people have this need to get together and all agree on a belief in order to validate it, and then look down on others who don't feel the same way?

Why do you look down on those who do? Eye for an eye?

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Or just do without its downsides and not require the positives to go with it. If you can't do that, then you must respect the costs of removing the positives as well for those who do give the more weight.

Well yeah, in an ideal world that'd be great...

I was just saying that I think the world would be much better off WITHOUT religion, than it is WITH it as things stand.

If there were a way for religion to exist without any of the downsides, i'd have nothing against it... why would I be against something that didn't hurt anybody...

But it certainly doesn't seem like there ever will be, because as you said, people are always going to try to manipulate it for their own means. And personally I see more downsides than that anyway.

Maybe this IS what many have already developed their own over the eons, and they feel good about sticking with it.

If you have been brought up within a religion, you have not come to your belief on your own based on your own experiences and thoughts and feelings... You've just accepted a religion that you've been told is the right one.

Why do you look down on those who do? Eye for an eye?

I don't prejudge people without talking to them first, so I don't look down on people just because they have a certain belief...

My stating hypothetical situations and my general fantasy wishes about a world without religion, in an atheism thread on a forum for superhero fans, is not me looking down on anybody in a personal way...

The only time I would even be disrespectful to someone about their personal religious beliefs is if there were being aggressive about it.

If someone was talking down to me, attacking me, preaching to me etc because I said I was an atheist, THEN I might stop being respectful of their beliefs.

Religious organisations/groups that do things I consider idiotic, offensive or evil I certainly do look down on.

There is a line that people or groups cross, where they do not deserve my respect anymore, or anyone elses.

One religion looking down on another just because they disagree on small details about what God wants... that's completely different. They DO prejudge. They DO look down on each other the minute they discover the other persons religion. They are prejudice and persecute each other.

 

[KalMart]

If you have been brought up within a religion, you have not come to your belief on your own based on your own experiences and thoughts and feelings... You've just accepted a religion that you've been told is the right one.

You could say the same for a lot of things, as well. Like you may never commit or experience murder and only be told about it, yet subscribe to it being wrong. To many religious folk...they feel/have been told/etc. that belief in God and God being the source/embodiment of good is just as innate and valid in being subscribed to through indoctrination. It's certainly their inalienable right NOT to question the legitimacy of that indoctrination, as well.

I don't prejudge people without talking to them first, so I don't look down on people just because they have a certain belief...

My stating hypothetical situations and my general fantasy wishes about a world without religion, in an atheism thread on a forum for superhero fans, is not me looking down on anybody in a personal way...

The only time I would even be disrespectful to someone about their personal religious beliefs is if there were being aggressive about it.

If someone was talking down to me, attacking me, preaching to me etc because I said I was an atheist, THEN I might stop being respectful of their beliefs.

Religious organisations/groups that do things I consider idiotic, offensive or evil I certainly do look down on.

There is a line that people or groups cross, where they do not deserve my respect anymore, or anyone elses.

One religion looking down on another just because they disagree on small details about what God wants... that's completely different. They DO prejudge. They DO look down on each other the minute they discover the other persons religion. They are prejudice and persecute each other.

See...is it not sensible to say that not everyone who is religious will 'look down upon' you're not believing? And in fact, there are many theists who would indeed respect your right not to believe? then if it's not complete across the board, or even tangibly showable to be an overwhelming majority...it's unjust to claim that religion as a whole is something that should be abolished. Yo should first look to abolish intolerance. And if that's done, and they're still not treating non-believers respectfully, then it may be time to move farther up.

SOME prejudge..they don't ALL prejudge. So we can't remove religion, which they ALL share...we need to focus on the prejudging (which many non-believers have also chosen to reciprocate). Much more complex, but more fundamentally what this is all about.

All I'm saying is that you need to look at it more civilly to better and more sensibly/objectively support an opposing stance, even if you feel you've been disproportionally wronged. You want to show you're in the right, do what you can to show it on the 'high road', and don't stoop to outright dismissal like they allegedly do.

 

[Dr.]

In terms of belief in an afterlife of some kind, I do understand that. I would not think it cruel to tell a dying man that he is about to go 'to a better place' if that is what he believed. I would think that kind.

Ever see The Invention of Lying? In an alternate world, telling the (often brutal) truth is what everyone does. And that includes the truth about religion. Then, Gervais’ character discovers lying. Here he is comforting his dying Mum about heaven. Kinda touching. (Spanish subtitled – but in English.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scyyr--4DCw&feature=player_embedded

 

[hopefuldreamer]

You could say the same for a lot of things, as well. Like you may never commit or experience murder and only be told about it, yet subscribe to it being wrong. To many religious folk...they feel/have been told/etc. that belief in God and God being the source/embodiment of good is just as innate and valid in being subscribed to through indoctrination. It's certainly their inalienable right NOT to question the legitimacy of that indoctrination, as well.

But I wasn't talking about them not having the right.

I was just pointing out there would be no harm in everyone just having their own personal belief rather than needing to assign themselves to a religion or label in order to validate it.

See...is it not sensible to say that not everyone who is religious will 'look down upon' you're not believing? And in fact, there are many theists who would indeed respect your right not to believe? then if it's not complete across the board, or even tangibly showable to be an overwhelming majority...it's unjust to claim that religion as a whole is something that should be abolished. Yo should first look to abolish intolerance. And if that's done, and they're still not treating non-believers respectfully, then it may be time to move farther up.

SOME prejudge..they don't ALL prejudge. So we can't remove religion, which they ALL share...we need to focus on the prejudging (which many non-believers have also chosen to reciprocate). Much more complex, but more fundamentally what this is all about.

All I'm saying is that you need to look at it more civilly to better and more sensibly/objectively support an opposing stance, even if you feel you've been disproportionally wronged. You want to show you're in the right, do what you can to show it on the 'high road', and don't stoop to outright dismissal like they allegedly do.

Yeah this arguement is just getting really repetative.

I've made my points, and you seem to have the same response to everything... basically just variations of 'they aren't all bad'.

Never once in this discussion have I said they are, so i'm getting bored of that being your response.

My opinion is simply - No religion would be better than religion as it is in the world to day.

More people's suffering would be ended if it were eradicated today, than people would be harmed by it being gone.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Ever see The Invention of Lying? In an alternate world, telling the (often brutal) truth is what everyone does. And that includes the truth about religion. Then, Gervais’ character discovers lying. Here he is comforting his dying Mum about heaven. Kinda touching. (Spanish subtitled – but in English.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scyyr--4DCw&feature=player_embedded

Yeah that film was pretty good... I remember it really spinning me out actually, and that the end got very weird. But I haven't seen it in ages so I can't actually remember it all that well

But yeah, that scene is touching

 

[KalMart]

Yeah this arguement is just getting really repetative.

I've made my points, and you seem to have the same response to everything... basically just variations of 'they aren't all bad'.

Never once in this discussion have I said they are, so i'm getting bored of that being your response.

Just responding to the same blanket claim/points that....

My opinion is simply - No religion would be better than religion as it is in the world to day.

...whereas I believe better religion and coexistence with non-believers would be better.

More people's suffering would be ended if it were eradicated today, than people would be harmed by it being gone.

How would you propose it be eradicated...by eradication? How about those who choose to keep being religious? Would they be eradicated for it?

 

[enterthemadness]

Just responding to the same blanket claim/points that....


...whereas I believe better religion and coexistence with non-believers would be better.


How would you propose it be eradicated...by eradication? How about those who choose to keep being religious? Would they be eradicated for it?

For some reason...this comes to mind:

Then this...

Finally...

Which reminds me of how I think about thunder storms in Florida...daydreaming...yelling 'ZEUS!" at the sky...

But my lame attempt at humor aside with pics...you bring up a good point, KalMart. I mean..you can't take out religion from people...or even make a one world religion. Something major would need to happen first in the world for either to happen. What that could be, I dunno.

 

[mara]

For some reason...this comes to mind:

Then this...

Finally...

Which reminds me of how I think about thunder storms in Florida...daydreaming...yelling 'ZEUS!" at the sky...

Guilty. t: lol

 

[mara]

^ Seriously, I laughed, and still giggling.

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree as I had to do with my friend.

 

[redhawk23]

The Ledge is a pretty terrible movie IMHO.

As others have mentioned, the Invention of Lying is pretty great. The whole religion plotline in that movie caught me completely off guard.

 

[Lighthouse]

The Quickening will unite believers and non-believers?

 

[enterthemadness]

Guilty. t: lol

thanks.

The Quickening will unite believers and non-believers?

maybe in the Highlander universe.

 

[KalMart]

Which reminds me of how I think about thunder storms in Florida...daydreaming...yelling 'ZEUS!" at the sky...

But my lame attempt at humor aside with pics...you bring up a good point, KalMart. I mean..you can't take out religion from people...or even make a one world religion. Something major would need to happen first in the world for either to happen. What that could be, I dunno.

Which is why I brought up the sticky side to the seemingly utopian view of getting rid of religion. It would have to go away by itself somehow...or we'd have to force it, targeting people for their beliefs which is something that many dislike about religion in the first place. I doubt it would ever stop under its own volition, so getting rid of something that many believe to be wrong would present them with another great moral dilemma in doing so.