Bad Robot/Jonathan Nolan Bringing "Westworld" to HBO - Part 1

[antsman41]

I don’t see why Maeve cares about her kid, whom she let go into the Valley last year with “new Maeve”.

 

[Sithborg]

Remember, until Charlores made it personal, Maeve was rather nonchalant about what Dolores was doing. Really, she was viewing Dolores' success as a point of pride of being a Host. Maeve was working under duress.

There is a lot to absorb this episode. That Rehoboam is likely behind most of the crime app is a fascinating twist.

And I think it is clear that Dolores targeted Caleb. Its clear that he has the potential for massive disruption to Serac's plan. And clearly, a lot more. Still curious what Bernard's role is in her plan.

I think I need to rewatch the past few episodes, as I don't think I have absorbed them as much as I needed to.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Remember, until Charlores made it personal, Maeve was rather nonchalant about what Dolores was doing. Really, she was viewing Dolores' success as a point of pride of being a Host. Maeve was working under duress.

There is a lot to absorb this episode. That Rehoboam is likely behind most of the crime app is a fascinating twist.

And I think it is clear that Dolores targeted Caleb. Its clear that he has the potential for massive disruption to Serac's plan. And clearly, a lot more. Still curious what Bernard's role is in her plan.

I think I need to rewatch the past few episodes, as I don't think I have absorbed them as much as I needed to.

They had the entire talk in her virtual reality world that showed that was not true, at all. She has been irrational about Dolores from the jump, which means even if she is right, she's wrong. Her best course of action would have been to join Dolores.

I am sure Dolores isn't clean. I am sure she killed Telores family. But a lot of what she is doing is similar to the Machine from POI. She's playing the percentages a lot like the Machine did, and she doesn't have Team Machine to blunt her most ruthless tendencies. But she is giving people choices, where others are not. Even if she thinks she knows what they will choose, seems to be giving them choices. The only person she seems to be taking choice from is herself, and that includes her "other selves". Which to me, feels more like her doing what she intended to do from the start for herself. Though clearly that isn't so easy when her other selves become their own entities.

 

[The Shape]

Maeve has definitely been the weakest link of the season, especially in terms of her motivation.

#TeamDelores

 

[chamber-music]

I'm team Maeve.

Delores and Serac really aren't that different. Both of them are fine manipulating and killing vast amounts of people for their belief in the greater good. Serac believes he is saving people by controlling them while Delores thinks she is freeing people/making a safe place for her kind (but is really sowing the seeds of mankind's demise).

I would rather see Maeve team up with Stubbs, Bernard and some sympathetic humans to form a third way in which humans and machines peacefully co-exist freely. There has got to be more humans like Lee Sizemore or the Westworld technician that aren't as homicidal as Serac and Delores.

 

[scarlet-witch]

It's funny because last season I was all about Mauve's story and Dolores' frustrated me and this season has been the complete opposite.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

It was cool to see and hear Solomon.
As always Dolores delivers.
Also Terminator Dolores vs Ninja Maeve

 

[Closerframe]

I might be alone on this, but as much I liked the action in this episode, I can't believe how dumb down this season got. It's almost like they got pressured from HBO make the show more accessible to average viewers.

You’re not. I kept thinking as this season went on we would get the complexity we saw developing in Season 2, but it looks like HBO went the opposite direction and made something borderline idiotic. I was never fond of Dolores, but her partnering up with Caleb this season just feels wrong in so many ways. At this point, I feel like I’m only watching this show for Vincent Cassel and Ed Harris.

 

[Sithborg]

I mean, I am just sitting back waiting for Maeve to break free from Serac and get her revenge.

This season has a more straightforward narrative, with some significant twists, but sure, not the mind **** the previous 2 seasons were, where you were unsure what was real and where everything fit into the bigger puzzle. That is a good thing. Because a lot of times, the creators get too obsessed with being clever than telling a good story.

And I don't know how the story isn't complex. We have at least 4 different perspectives on the world order, and how to control/change it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm team Maeve.

Delores and Serac really aren't that different. Both of them are fine manipulating and killing vast amounts of people for their belief in the greater good. Serac believes he is saving people by controlling them while Delores thinks she is freeing people/making a safe place for her kind (but is really sowing the seeds of mankind's demise).

I would rather see Maeve team up with Stubbs, Bernard and some sympathetic humans to form a third way in which humans and machines peacefully co-exist freely. There has got to be more humans like Lee Sizemore or the Westworld technician that aren't as homicidal as Serac and Delores.

Is Dolores sowing the seeds of mankind's demise, or did mankind do that themselves? All she has done is show humans what they have done to themselves. Heck, they even created Dolores. Dolores revealing the reality of the horror that mankind has become, is her doing something wrong?

Maeve has no problem working for a dude who has spent at least half his life trying to control people. To the point of editing their genes. Something Maeve rallied against for two seasons, and now she is perfectly fine working for the guy for what I think is pretty clearly flawed reasoning.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I mean, I am just sitting back waiting for Maeve to break free from Serac and get her revenge.

This season has a more straightforward narrative, with some significant twists, but sure, not the mind **** the previous 2 seasons were, where you were unsure what was real and where everything fit into the bigger puzzle. That is a good thing. Because a lot of times, the creators get too obsessed with being clever than telling a good story.

And I don't know how the story isn't complex. We have at least 4 different perspectives on the world order, and how to control/change it.

That does not explain how Maeve has acted to this point though. Sure she can do that. But why would she choose Serac over Dolores in the first place? It makes no sense. Where does she get that Dolores would enslave the hosts, when the only one actually doing that is Maeve and Serac? Remember Maeve assumed Dolores was using other hosts, but she didn't. She is putting her money where her mouth is, and is doing this all on her own. Also what is Dolores going to do to those in the beyond, when she put Teddy there so he could be at peace? She hid it, so the baddies couldn't find it. I get that Maeve might not know this, though considering her abilities I am not sure why, but it just makes her look like a hypocrite, wrong and dumb.

I think the show was the best it had ever been through 5 episodes. Then the last two episodes happened and if I am honest, it feels like we have fallen back into the classic Nolan issue of philosophizing for the sake of philosophizing. Especially when after all that talk of philosophy the answer is usually something really simple, like "love is the key even as we don't know what love is". I love Jonah, but goddamn.

 

[Sithborg]

You do remember that Maeve is under duress, right?

 

[chamber-music]

Is Dolores sowing the seeds of mankind's demise, or did mankind do that themselves? All she has done is show humans what they have done to themselves. Heck, they even created Dolores. Dolores revealing the reality of the horror that mankind has become, is her doing something wrong?

Maeve has no problem working for a dude who has spent at least half his life trying to control people. To the point of editing their genes. Something Maeve rallied against for two seasons, and now she is perfectly fine working for the guy for what I think is pretty clearly flawed reasoning.

I think Maeve will turn on Serac when she has the opportunity. The alliance seems temporary and Maeve is cunning.

The rich jerks with power did stuff to mankind (including create the hosts and visit Westworld). The rest of humanity seem to be pawns who don't have much say about anything. I don't think the entire human race should be condemned because of the top 1%.

Dolores is manipulating Caleb and has been using him as a pawn which Bernard brought up in the latest episode. Dolores and Caleb running into each other was not by accident like it first appeared. Caleb has been central to her plans for a while. Delores motives are not purely altruistic. Caleb having a role to play in the human race potential demise has been heavily implied. Caleb is becoming the outlier that Serac feared would end the world.

 

[Snow Queen]

My phone decided to give me a push notification for the Westworld reddit for some reason, and I have to admit the theory made me chuckle a little. The idea is that the final ally in Berlin isn't another Dolores copy, but Maeve, and the one we've been watching is an attempt at a copy by Rehoboam, which is why it feels out of character. I don't know if I'd expect that happening as some of it doesn't quite add up to me (like her pearl missing in cold storage when she was laying on the beach while Halores left), but at this point it'd make as much sense for the character as any.

It's weird, I don't know why they went this way with it. Instead of playing up the idea she's being strong-armed into this, they instead emphasize getting her daughter from Dolores and a moral conflict that's grounded mostly in Maeve just not being privy to information. There's no reason for her to know of Dolores' arc last season and the choice she made with Teddy in the finale, but it's just kinda frustrating watching a character be a season behind and no one catching her up. So the bit about how Dolores is going to use all the hosts in the valley as her slaves in an army doesn't land, especially as the only person we've seen this season bringing hosts back to fight for her is Maeve.

That's not to say Dolores isn't flawed in serious ways herself. I think we're definitely finding out she killed Hale's family in an attempt to manipulate Halores (and she already seems to know it, with the first scene of this episode). She also doesn't seem to really understand what living these different lives is doing to her copies and attempts to exert control over them as they (particularly Halores) grow into different people. But I feel like her flaws feel character-based and consistent whereas Maeve's this season ring hollow for me. They don't really give her a leg to stand on with her moralizing, but decide to emphasize it over the idea of her being forced into this. I hope there's something up their sleeve here because it's just not working for me.

 

[flickchick85]

I will be shocked and disappointed if Maeve doesn’t turn the tables on Serac in the finale. I’ve been assuming she’s just been playing the part he wanted her to these last few eps because she’s planning to get free of him, so if that’s not the case, I’ll be annoyed.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You do remember that Maeve is under duress, right?

Everyone on this show is. She is the only one acting like this.

I will be shocked and disappointed if Maeve doesn’t turn the tables on Serac in the finale. I’ve been assuming she’s just been playing the part he wanted her to these last few eps because she’s planning to get free of him, so if that’s not the case, I’ll be annoyed.

But how would that change what she has been doing? That's my issue with it. It's like getting a big Batman or Superman moment at the end of a movie like BvS. Sure, it's a big Batman and Superman moment. But it doesn't really change how they got there. Maeve wouldn't need to just turn the table on Serac. She'd need some way to prove that Dolores was some sort of threat to her daughter, and was planning on making a robot army for herself out of all the Hosts. This is my big issue with the "we are in Maeve's head" episode. It kind of shows exactly what she is thinking and well it rings irrational to the point of, "if there is even a 1% chance we have to treat it as an absolute certainty". Which is... yeah.

I am interested in where all this goes, but I feel like we are going to need some kung fu here, that I don't think I have ever seen on this or POI. I feel like we are in this weird end of season 2 situation, where Root was hit in the face with the flaws in her logic. The problem here is, that should be Dolores here. But the season has kind of built her to right. I guess it could all be subversion, but on the other hand, I don't know how that would work considering the opposition this season isn't exactly full of winners.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

My phone decided to give me a push notification for the Westworld reddit for some reason, and I have to admit the theory made me chuckle a little. The idea is that the final ally in Berlin isn't another Dolores copy, but Maeve, and the one we've been watching is an attempt at a copy by Rehoboam, which is why it feels out of character. I don't know if I'd expect that happening as some of it doesn't quite add up to me (like her pearl missing in cold storage when she was laying on the beach while Halores left), but at this point it'd make as much sense for the character as any.

It's weird, I don't know why they went this way with it. Instead of playing up the idea she's being strong-armed into this, they instead emphasize getting her daughter from Dolores and a moral conflict that's grounded mostly in Maeve just not being privy to information. There's no reason for her to know of Dolores' arc last season and the choice she made with Teddy in the finale, but it's just kinda frustrating watching a character be a season behind and no one catching her up. So the bit about how Dolores is going to use all the hosts in the valley as her slaves in an army doesn't land, especially as the only person we've seen this season bringing hosts back to fight for her is Maeve.

That's not to say Dolores isn't flawed in serious ways herself. I think we're definitely finding out she killed Hale's family in an attempt to manipulate Halores (and she already seems to know it, with the first scene of this episode). She also doesn't seem to really understand what living these different lives is doing to her copies and attempts to exert control over them as they (particularly Halores) grow into different people. But I feel like her flaws feel character-based and consistent whereas Maeve's this season ring hollow for me. They don't really give her a leg to stand on with her moralizing, but decide to emphasize it over the idea of her being forced into this. I hope there's something up their sleeve here because it's just not working for me.

I agree with almost everything you wrote, but this. I do think Dolores knows, which explains how she talks to Telores. This all feels like an inevitable outcome they knew was coming, "discussed" beforehand about how they would handle it, and yet are doomed to live out because this is how it had to be. Like with parents and children, they were one, grew apart and will now have to face being different units.

 

[flickchick85]

Maeve has no big agenda. She doesn’t give a **** about whatever Dolores is doing. She just wants a happy life with her daughter free of control. So if her playing along with Serac is part of whatever she’s gotta do to get what she wants, I’ve got zero problems with it. If it goes against Dolores’s plans, oh well. I’m not particularly rooting for Dolores anyway.

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, I tend not to side with Skynet.

About the only good guys at the moment are Bernard and Caleb. Both of whom is being manipulated by Dolores somehow.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

I’m interested to see what William’s next move is, especially since he’s gonna save the world lol

Hope to see much more hilarious interactions between William and Stubbs & Bernard

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Maeve has no big agenda. She doesn’t give a **** about whatever Dolores is doing. She just wants a happy life with her daughter free of control. So if her playing along with Serac is part of whatever she’s gotta do to get what she wants, I’ve got zero problems with it. If it goes against Dolores’s plans, oh well. I’m not particularly rooting for Dolores anyway.

I get you don't root for Dolores, and that I do, but it isn't about that. This is about the internal logic of the show and Maeve.

Maeve makes it clear multiple times she cares what Dolores is doing. She did it in the last episode. If what she wants is a happy life for her daughter, free of control, she is going about it in the completely wrong way imo

What we know:

1. Maeve's method of "saving her daughter's life" at the end of last season would have left her in the hands of Serac if not for...

2. Dolores saved all the hosts with her actions at the end of season 2. This Maeve should be completely aware of considering what Serac has been up to as,

3. Serac and his people have murdered all but 4 hosts who did not make it to the valley beyond.

4. Maeve's method of "saving" her daughter is taking the control over the valley beyond she says Dolores shouldn't have because she is somehow enslaving them (she is not as far as we know).

5. Dolores has enslaved exactly one host this entire series. Teddy, which she regretted and then left in the great beyond to protect and to be at peace.

6. Maeve has in fact enslaved dozens of not hundreds of host, and killed way more then Dolores has.

7. Maeve's plan would leave her daughter constantly hunted for the rest of time.

Now I haven't been the biggest Maeve fan since the end of season 1. I just think she is all rather one note and if I am honest, she doesn't really have much to do with the show's plot/story, though I do understand how she plays into the theme of all that is going on. But I feel like this season has made her dumb, which while I considered her wrong before, I never considered her that. Now if the theory that this Maeve isn't the real Maeve is correct, then I will think this has all been rather clever. It would tie into the ideas presented with the Dolores copies and their inability to copy a "real" person based solely on memory. Showing that the hosts themselves are in fact real people and can't just be "copied". It would play beautiful with the themes of this season and honestly everything these people have done going back to POI.

And I do think it is possible.

1. We still haven't seen the chuckle brothers since they "saved" her at at the end of last season.

2. If I am remember correctly, she has not used "controlled" a host yet. The closest we got was this strange EMP power and her controlling some gun arms, but that doesn't seem to be the same thing. Maybe she has only controlled stuff Serac is tapped into?

3. We know that there is one host body unaccounted for, and looking at the screen I believe you can see that it is 3 boys and 2 girls, but I am not positive on that one. If that is correct though, the 3 male bodies are accounted for. In terms of women, we have only seen Dolores.

4. When Serac showed Maeve the bodies Dolores created, he mentions Dolores didn't pick her as an ally. To me this would be classic misdirection.

5. In episode 2 we see a flashback to something Bernard saw at the end of season 2. We saw Dolores in Hale's body with a base skeleton to create a host, which means she could have been making another host body we have not accounted for yet.

Now my pet theory is if there was host body created in the park, it was Elise to sneak Maeve out. The only two people who "know" she is dead, are Hale (dead) and Bernard. The body still unaccounted created on the outside is either an actress POI fans know (Acker so someone needs to bring Snow Queen back to life) or Maeve's original. If it is a different actress like say Acker, then I can see that as the perfect way to hide Maeve, though I could just see it being her own body, as a way to show audiences who it is right away, if she shows up to "fight herself". Either way I think Maeve would be on the outside, with her daughter (showing she has the data) and not the person we have seen with Serac.

The one issue with the idea of the body created in the park to sneak out Maeve, is then why does Dolores have 5 pearls instead of 4? But thinking about it, maybe the extra body is the daughter, but then how did they get it out?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, I tend not to side with Skynet.

About the only good guys at the moment are Bernard and Caleb. Both of whom is being manipulated by Dolores somehow.

How is Dolores Skynet? She's fighting Skynet aka Samaritan. If she is manipulating Caleb, she is doing it by revealing the truth. This is the issue with the Skynet argument imo. All Dolores has done is broken Big Brother. If mankind turns on itself because of that, that is mankind's fault. How is this Dolores doing something "evil"?

Bernard is being Bernard about everything. Which means what he is doing is most likely wrong. Just ask Elise, just ask Dolores.

 

[Snow Queen]

Now I haven't been the biggest Maeve fan since the end of season 1. I just think she is all rather one note and if I am honest, she doesn't really have much to do with the show's plot/story, though I do understand how she plays into the theme of all that is going on. But I feel like this season has made her dumb, which while I considered her wrong before, I never considered her that. Now if the theory that this Maeve isn't the real Maeve is correct, then I will think this has all been rather clever. It would tie into the ideas presented with the Dolores copies and their inability to copy a "real" person based solely on memory. Showing that the hosts themselves are in fact real people and can't just be "copied". It would play beautiful with the themes of this season and honestly everything these people have done going back to POI.

And I do think it is possible.

1. We still haven't seen the chuckle brothers since they "saved" her at at the end of last season.

2. If I am remember correctly, she has not used "controlled" a host yet. The closest we got was this strange EMP power and her controlling some gun arms, but that doesn't seem to be the same thing. Maybe she has only controlled stuff Serac is tapped into?

3. We know that there is one host body unaccounted for, and looking at the screen I believe you can see that it is 3 boys and 2 girls, but I am not positive on that one. If that is correct though, the 3 male bodies are accounted for. In terms of women, we have only seen Dolores.

4. When Serac showed Maeve the bodies Dolores created, he mentions Dolores didn't pick her as an ally. To me this would be classic misdirection.

5. In episode 2 we see a flashback to something Bernard saw at the end of season 2. We saw Dolores in Hale's body with a base skeleton to create a host, which means she could have been making another host body we have not accounted for yet.

Now my pet theory is if there was host body created in the park, it was Elise to sneak Maeve out. The only two people who "know" she is dead, are Hale (dead) and Bernard. The body still unaccounted created on the outside is either an actress POI fans know (Acker so someone needs to bring Snow Queen back to life) or Maeve's original. If it is a different actress like say Acker, then I can see that as the perfect way to hide Maeve, though I could just see it being her own body, as a way to show audiences who it is right away, if she shows up to "fight herself". Either way I think Maeve would be on the outside, with her daughter (showing she has the data) and not the person we have seen with Serac.

The one issue with the idea of the body created in the park to sneak out Maeve, is then why does Dolores have 5 pearls instead of 4? But thinking about it, maybe the extra body is the daughter, but then how did they get it out?

That theory's been on my mind quite a bit today, and I kinda want to bounce off this as I've come around to liking it. It occurs to me that my problem with the theory earlier, her body on the shore, could easily be written around. She's laying face-up, the back of her head hidden by hair and the sand, her control unit could have already been removed by this point. It also does feel like a minor incongruity that our Maeve ending point last season is Felix and Sylvester looking down at her body, being told to put the ones that are still functional back in service. Then this season, we're introduced to her in War World as a misdirection as though it follows up on that. Instead of course, she's seemingly taken by Serac between seasons. It's not that it's impossible that series of events occurs, but I think there's a lot of wiggle room there.

It also feels a little weird to me that she's able to control the guns and headphones, but she's not able to control Sato, who runs right through her, or Dolores' AI-controlled sniper rifle.

I think it would make for a potentially interesting comparison. Halores seems to have figured out that Dolores probably blew up the car, with her leaking Sato's location to Maeve/Serac/Rehoboam. We could have two copies running around. Rehoboam can't copy people correctly, and it probably couldn't manage a host either, emphasizing their (for lack of a better term) humanity. So we've got a Maeve that feels off. Meanwhile we have a Dolores that's been living another person's life and has been changed by this. I think it'd be very in-character for this writing team to do that.

There's also the matter of the Valley Beyond. In episode 3, Serac and Halores both are aware that the Valley has been downloaded. Serac says it's in Dolores' mind. We haven't seen any evidence of this yet, and I don't think Dolores would put the Valley somewhere where it's constantly in danger of being destroyed while she gets into fights. But if it's in Berlin in a host that's blending into the world... The idea of the real Maeve safeguarding the entire species, held either in her own head or her daughter's if she's around somehow, feels like a fitting, natural extension of her character for me.

Now I'm probably just overthinking it. There's a good chance there's not some big twist to it. But I feel like the theory feels thematically consistent, and more in-character for Maeve than what we've seen this season. It also just feels like it'd be consistent with their other work, particularly the last time Nolan and The wrote an episode together. I like the idea more than I thought I would, with a bit of thought. Who knows though, we'll see what happens Sunday.

 

[flickchick85]

I get you don't root for Dolores, and that I do, but it isn't about that. This is about the internal logic of the show and Maeve.

Maeve makes it clear multiple times she cares what Dolores is doing. She did it in the last episode. If what she wants is a happy life for her daughter, free of control, she is going about it in the completely wrong way imo

What we know:

1. Maeve's method of "saving her daughter's life" at the end of last season would have left her in the hands of Serac if not for...

2. Dolores saved all the hosts with her actions at the end of season 2. This Maeve should be completely aware of considering what Serac has been up to as,

3. Serac and his people have murdered all but 4 hosts who did not make it to the valley beyond.

4. Maeve's method of "saving" her daughter is taking the control over the valley beyond she says Dolores shouldn't have because she is somehow enslaving them (she is not as far as we know).

5. Dolores has enslaved exactly one host this entire series. Teddy, which she regretted and then left in the great beyond to protect and to be at peace.

6. Maeve has in fact enslaved dozens of not hundreds of host, and killed way more then Dolores has.

7. Maeve's plan would leave her daughter constantly hunted for the rest of time.

Now I haven't been the biggest Maeve fan since the end of season 1. I just think she is all rather one note and if I am honest, she doesn't really have much to do with the show's plot/story, though I do understand how she plays into the theme of all that is going on. But I feel like this season has made her dumb, which while I considered her wrong before, I never considered her that. Now if the theory that this Maeve isn't the real Maeve is correct, then I will think this has all been rather clever. It would tie into the ideas presented with the Dolores copies and their inability to copy a "real" person based solely on memory. Showing that the hosts themselves are in fact real people and can't just be "copied". It would play beautiful with the themes of this season and honestly everything these people have done going back to POI.

And I do think it is possible.

1. We still haven't seen the chuckle brothers since they "saved" her at at the end of last season.

2. If I am remember correctly, she has not used "controlled" a host yet. The closest we got was this strange EMP power and her controlling some gun arms, but that doesn't seem to be the same thing. Maybe she has only controlled stuff Serac is tapped into?

3. We know that there is one host body unaccounted for, and looking at the screen I believe you can see that it is 3 boys and 2 girls, but I am not positive on that one. If that is correct though, the 3 male bodies are accounted for. In terms of women, we have only seen Dolores.

4. When Serac showed Maeve the bodies Dolores created, he mentions Dolores didn't pick her as an ally. To me this would be classic misdirection.

5. In episode 2 we see a flashback to something Bernard saw at the end of season 2. We saw Dolores in Hale's body with a base skeleton to create a host, which means she could have been making another host body we have not accounted for yet.

Now my pet theory is if there was host body created in the park, it was Elise to sneak Maeve out. The only two people who "know" she is dead, are Hale (dead) and Bernard. The body still unaccounted created on the outside is either an actress POI fans know (Acker so someone needs to bring Snow Queen back to life) or Maeve's original. If it is a different actress like say Acker, then I can see that as the perfect way to hide Maeve, though I could just see it being her own body, as a way to show audiences who it is right away, if she shows up to "fight herself". Either way I think Maeve would be on the outside, with her daughter (showing she has the data) and not the person we have seen with Serac.

The one issue with the idea of the body created in the park to sneak out Maeve, is then why does Dolores have 5 pearls instead of 4? But thinking about it, maybe the extra body is the daughter, but then how did they get it out?

Why are you talking to me about all the hosts Maeve has enslaved/killed? When did I bring anything relevant to that up? Did I suggest Maeve was some kind of saint or something, because I certainly don't remember that. Did I compare the righteousness of Maeve vs. the righteousness of Dolores, because I don't remember that either. I am invested in Maeve's journey, and not in Dolores's, sure. I said Maeve doesn't give a **** about what Dolores is doing. Which is true, or certainly seemed true at the beginning of the season. I said her ultimate goal is to live with her daughter free of control. Which is also true. All of her actions make sense to me in that context, even if I don't agree with them. I'm not here to argue morality between Dolores and Maeve's "missions." They're robots who gained sentience, and frankly, I find all their actions shady as hell, but logical from sentient robot perspectives. But, more importantly, in Maeve's case, I find her actions very human. Has she made the best choices? Definitely not. From the moment she got off that train at the end of season 1, I thought she made the wrong choice. But while that may have made her uninteresting to you, it's what made her interesting to me, because that choice came from a purely emotional, very human place that her active killer robot mode couldn't stamp out, despite how irrational it was, and despite her knowing how irrational it was. Frankly, I think she was possibly walking the path of Dolores until that moment - she was gonna escape the park and and show mankind their failures in some kind of violent way. But she went a different way at the last minute because of her emotional attachment to a daughter that was never hers. And her choices since then have come from that same irrational, emotional place, and I understood every step of the way why she made them. Including playing along with Serac these last couple episodes if she's got another agenda at work, which I hope to be the case. Everything she's said to Dolores about her "mission" these last couple episodes sounds like Serac to me. If that's not the case, like I said, I'll be disappointed. I don't know how much I buy into that theory, but I do feel like there's some twist coming with Maeve to explain her recent behavior.

You think Maeve doesn't matter to the show's plot. Cool. To me, she is the HEART of the show, and the only character this show made me care about, so there is no show without her. So you know, Different strokes.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Why are you talking to me about all the hosts Maeve has enslaved/killed? When did I bring anything relevant to that up? Did I suggest Maeve was some kind of saint or something, because I certainly don't remember that. Did I compare the righteousness of Maeve vs. the righteousness of Dolores, because I don't remember that either. I said Maeve doesn't give a **** about what Dolores is doing. Which is true, or certainly seemed true at the beginning of the season. I said her ultimate goal is to live with her daughter free of control. Which is also true. All of her actions make sense to me in that context, even if I don't agree with them. I'm not here to argue morality between Dolores and Maeve's "missions." They're robots who gained sentience, and frankly, I find all their actions shady as hell, but logical from sentient robot perspectives. But, more importantly, in Maeve's case, I find her actions very human. Has she made the best choices? Definitely not. From the moment she got off that train at the end of season 1, I thought she made the wrong choice. But while that may have made her uninteresting to you, it's what made her interesting to me, because that choice came from a purely emotional, very human place that her active killer robot mode couldn't stamp out, despite how irrational it was. Frankly, I think she was walking the path of Dolores until that moment - she was gonna escape the park and and show mankind their failures in a violent way. But she went a different way at the last minute because of her emotional attachment to a daughter that was never hers. And her choices since then have come from that same irrational, emotional place, and I understood every step of the way why she made them. Including playing along with Serac these last couple episodes if she's got another agenda at work, which I hope to be the case. Everything she's said to Dolores about her "mission" these last couple episodes sounds like Serac to me. If that's not the case, like I said, I'll be disappointed. I don't know how much I buy into that theory, but I do feel like there's some twist coming with Maeve to explain her recent behavior.

You think Maeve doesn't matter to the show's plot. Cool. To me, she is the HEART of the show, and the only character this show made me care about, so there is no show without her. Different strokes.

I am bringing that up because Maeve is basically making the argument that her daughter is safer with her, then Dolores for those reasons. I personally think her logic is flawed, because everything she has basically claimed she is worried about with Dolores, is what she herself has done. While I have had issues with Maeve's actions in the past, I have never found her completely illogical like she is now. All the hosts are very human imo, and that is what makes them all who they are. But Dolores and Maeve also have knowledge and a higher level of functionality that others don't, and thus act accordingly.

Maeve right now to me is acting like Sarah Connor showing up at Dyson's house to kill him. On one hand I get the paternal instinct to do whatever you can to protect your child. The problem is that right now Maeve is not doing that imo. She is doing the opposite, like Sarah would have done if she murdered Dyson. Making things worse. And while I can empathize with her need to protect her child, I cannot really get behind her putting her daughter in more danger, which it feels like she is doing right now. For me, if the twist is she is working with Dolores and has been playing with Serac this whole time or this isn't the real Maeve, it puts the season in perspective and works really well for Maeve as a character.

Is it wrong to say Maeve doesn't have that much to do with the main plot of the show? To me she is very much this show's Reese post-The Devil's Share. A big part of it, but she just doesn't tie into the main plot of the show much because she is not tangled up in the plot. All three seasons have basically revolved around what Dolores is doing, especially this one imo. I am glad she is your favorite and that you enjoy watching her and I hope whatever we get on Sunday you are happy with it. Truly.

For all I know, Sunday might be my final episode, with Dolores/ERW getting killed off. As much as I like the show, I don't think I'd be coming back after that.