Falcon and Winter Soldier Baron Z E M O - He's back for more vengeance?

[KRYPTON INC.]

I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s Bucky’s main antagonist - make their fight a shadow war in the background.

As for motivations, he *could* still be just out for revenge...

...But what if he wants Avengers-level protectors of humanity... but not the Avengers iconography, legend, or MO? I mean, they just saved half of existance; maybe that’s shifted his opinions a bit. He could be part of a conspiracy seeking to control who becomes the Next Captain America, so he’d be reformed into basically a pro-Sokovian Accords guy? Or maybe he wants to have the heroes operate more covertly and focus on “real” threats?

Making him act like a would be reverse-Fury might be fun, especially in a world with Skrulls.

Would love something this inherently meaty and complex... Which is why it won't happen in a Marvel Studios product.

 

[The Caped Knight]

BARON ZEMO

 

[The Caped Knight]

So now the question is he going to be a physical challenge to Sam & Bucky. In the comics Zemo was an expert swordsman with advanced combat skills. We've seen that he's intelligent and crafty in Civil War.

 

[metaphysician]

So now the question is he going to be a physical challenge to Sam & Bucky. In the comics Zemo was an expert swordsman with advanced combat skills. We've seen that he's intelligent and crafty in Civil War.

My assumption would be "no", because he's shown no sign of that level of skill so far, doesn't really need it to serve as a valid adaptation of the comic ( all his truly important victories and feats in the comics are about mastermind skills and leadership, not personal combat ), and there isn't any ready way he *could* achieve "physical threat status" to either of them but especially Bucky. He'd basically need to either acquire a bootleg dose of Super Soldier Serum knockoff, or load himself down with an arsenal of supertech gadgets, or both. Is it possible? Sure, but it would be kind of a distraction from what makes him work as a character. He didn't need more than metaphorical pocket change to tear the Avengers in half, after all.

Basically, if you did have him acquire a buff in personal power, it should only be as a means to an end for Zemo, and that end should probably be very unexpected and circuitous. It should never be something as simple as "Gain personal power so I can personally beat up superheroes", but more like, I don't know. . . "Gain personal power so I can force a fight with Team Cap, which I will lose but survive and be arrested because they are heroes and I can control the context so they don't kill me. This ensures I return to custody, but also gives me the necessary reputation that Thaddeus Ross will recruit me into the Thunderbolts Program, thus giving me access to a whole cadre of black ops supervillains I can manipulate."

 

[Schlosser85]

My assumption would be "no", because he's shown no sign of that level of skill so far, doesn't really need it to serve as a valid adaptation of the comic ( all his truly important victories and feats in the comics are about mastermind skills and leadership, not personal combat ), and there isn't any ready way he *could* achieve "physical threat status" to either of them but especially Bucky. He'd basically need to either acquire a bootleg dose of Super Soldier Serum knockoff, or load himself down with an arsenal of supertech gadgets, or both. Is it possible? Sure, but it would be kind of a distraction from what makes him work as a character. He didn't need more than metaphorical pocket change to tear the Avengers in half, after all.

Basically, if you did have him acquire a buff in personal power, it should only be as a means to an end for Zemo, and that end should probably be very unexpected and circuitous. It should never be something as simple as "Gain personal power so I can personally beat up superheroes", but more like, I don't know. . . "Gain personal power so I can force a fight with Team Cap, which I will lose but survive and be arrested because they are heroes and I can control the context so they don't kill me. This ensures I return to custody, but also gives me the necessary reputation that Thaddeus Ross will recruit me into the Thunderbolts Program, thus giving me access to a whole cadre of black ops supervillains I can manipulate."

Honestly the thing I found interesting as Zemo in Civil War was how a low-key "normal" guy with no particular fighting skills or superpowers did so much damage with nothing but his own intelligence, so I'd be slightly disappointed if he got retconned into a more typical supervillain having a hand-to-hand throwdown with Bucky. He shouldn't be about that kind of stuff, IMO.

 

[Boom]

Mask seems a bit bulky. Better than nothing, I suppose.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I'm sure this has been commented on before, but I just realized he's "Baron" Zemo here.

 

[Zyraquis]

Now I need to see live action of a super glue as a lethal weapon.

 

[Iceman]

It will be interesting to see how Zemo has developed since CW. He will probably be a bit less subtle this time around

 

[Lantern Venom]

BARON ZEMO View attachment 42285

YES! Step #1 in fixing the character--a more fitting look. The line "super heroes shouldn't exist" gives me hope that he'll have a slightly better motivation, although not perfect for *BARON* Zemo, and it looks like he might actually tussle with Sam & Bucky. The character isn't beyond saving if Marvel Studios plays their cards correctly.

 

[metaphysician]

YES! Step #1 in fixing the character--a more fitting look. The line "super heroes shouldn't exist" gives me hope that he'll have a slightly better motivation, although not perfect for *BARON* Zemo, and it looks like he might actually tussle with Sam & Bucky. The character isn't beyond saving if Marvel Studios plays their cards correctly.

So, your number one priority for adapting a character well, is not good acting or good story or good theme, its. . . having the correct appearance?

 

[Schlosser85]

MCU Zemo had a good motivation and wasn't a bad character in the first place.

 

[Lantern Venom]

So, your number one priority for adapting a character well, is not good acting or good story or good theme, its. . . having the correct appearance?

There's no real #1 priority, although acting can't save a poorly written character. A character actually needs three key elements: to have a memorable motivation (and BARON Zemo's should have nothing to do with Sokovia), striking visuals, and a story that uses this properly. I'd like to see Marvel Studios wipe the slate clean with that stock-character mess in Civil War and let BARON Zemo be the cunning, dangerous, xenophobic villain that he should be. And yes, I'd love to see his accident with Adhesive X come into play.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

Why the **** does Zemo care that supheroes are still around? If it's really the whole "my family died in Sokovia" thing, THAT WASN'T THE AVENGERS' FAULT! It was Ultron's! We didn't even SEE them die! And yet he even said the town was going to hell BEFORE all that! The guy's a ****ing hypocrite who's just looking for an excuse to kill people!

 

[metaphysician]

Why the **** does Zemo care that supheroes are still around? If it's really the whole "my family died in Sokovia" thing, THAT WASN'T THE AVENGERS' FAULT! It was Ultron's! We didn't even SEE them die! And yet he even said the town was going to hell BEFORE all that! The guy's a ****ing hypocrite who's just looking for an excuse to kill people!

I mean. . . yes? The reason his family died had far more to do with Hydra's active villainous presence in Sokovia than any of the heroes, and insofar as any of the superheroes contributed, it was basically all Tony Stark. This is true, and means he is 99% aiming his vengeance the wrong way.

This is called "the character in question is a villain". Yes, his vengeance is misaimed, this is the whole point. Not only is it misaimed, but to a great extent Zemo *knows* that he's redirecting blame. He knows, intellectually, that his quest for vengeance is a way to keep himself going day to day through both the grief at losing his family, and the guilt of knowing that most of the ethical weight is on himself*. Its just that doing anything else would basically mean he has to put a gun to his own head, and he's not quite ready to do that as long as he can indulge in some hate and spite first. That's what makes him a villain.

*Yes, really. Zemo may not have had command authority over the crap Hydra was doing in Sokovia, but he definitely was a willing participant. And intelligence officers in authoritarian states especially don't get to go "I was just following orders" to deny moral culpability.

 

[MahvelBaby!]

Zemo being back is what has me the most psyched for this.

Think he'll have been working on his sword skills in this?

 

[Lantern Venom]

Why the **** does Zemo care that supheroes are still around? If it's really the whole "my family died in Sokovia" thing, THAT WASN'T THE AVENGERS' FAULT! It was Ultron's! We didn't even SEE them die! And yet he even said the town was going to hell BEFORE all that! The guy's a ****ing hypocrite who's just looking for an excuse to kill people!

Because he needs a better motivation to be a long-term villain than an incident in Sokovia. His motivation *should be* objectionable, because Baron Zemo isn't supposed to be a sympathetic character. I'd much rather see a loathsome killer than a suicidal widower because that is much more fitting to this character.

 

[Schlosser85]

I don't see what the big stretch is, motivation-wise, between him blaming The Avengers for the death of his family in Civil War, to now continuing his warpath against superheroes. Sounds like just a continuation of his agenda to me.

 

[Still Wynning]

I think some people in this thread are conflating “bad writing” with “not being comic accurate”.

You know who’s not completely comic accurate? Pretty much every single character in the MCU. Most may contain most or at least a part of the essence of their comic interpretation, but most are almost somewhat or completely different. And you know what? That’s okay.

A comic book character’s success doesn’t hinge just on how well they’re translated from comics to the big screen. It hinges on how well written they are. If aspects of characters are to be changed in order to fit the needs of the story being told, as long as they are engaging and fleshed out, then so be it.

Zemo, as he is in Civil War, despite not being completely comic accurate, is a very compelling character in his own right. You don’t like the interpretation? That’s fine. But don’t say he’s badly written just because he’s not 1:1 with the comics.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I don't see what the big stretch is, motivation-wise, between him blaming The Avengers for the death of his family in Civil War, to now continuing his warpath against superheroes. Sounds like just a continuation of his agenda to me.

Presumably, it takes the all-important turn from a guy who is understandably rocked by a trauma to a guy on a lifelong mission to take down anyone who he deems on the wrong side of the equation. He shouldn't say things like 'I'm sorry about your father. He seemed a good man.' like he said to T'challa. He should be remorseless and focused. Marvel Studios has a lot of ground to make up since Baron Zemo isn't a legacy villain who had hatred bred into him, but they can still save the character if they toss the sympathetic aspect in the narrative dumpster.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Zemo, as he is in Civil War, despite not being completely comic accurate, is a very compelling character in his own right. You don’t like the interpretation? That’s fine. But don’t say he’s badly written just because he’s not 1:1 with the comics.

I've always maintained that Sokovia Joe is the 2nd worst MCU villain after the fake Mandarin. The Avengers were already at odds, and Civil War would have worked just as easily with another villain like Crossbones deciding to send Tony the tape of Bucky. Zemo's plan was convoluted and the character was essentially useless.

 

[metaphysician]

I don't see what the big stretch is, motivation-wise, between him blaming The Avengers for the death of his family in Civil War, to now continuing his warpath against superheroes. Sounds like just a continuation of his agenda to me.

Not just a continuation, but a logical one. The people he most blamed for his tragedy, Tony and Steve, well, one is dead and the other is "dead". What's the next best thing to target, if you can't target your nemeses? Target their legacy. Which in this case is "the entire concept of superheroism".

 

[Schlosser85]

Not just a continuation, but a logical one. The people he most blamed for his tragedy, Tony and Steve, well, one is dead and the other is "dead". What's the next best thing to target, if you can't target your nemeses? Target their legacy. Which in this case is "the entire concept of superheroism".

Especially if his skewed view of superheroes from his personal loss has led him to see them as a destructive force in the world, which isn’t any stretch from his agenda in Civil War just evolved into a broader viewpoint, and specifically Sam and Bucky are both very connected to Captain America and Sam is probably directly replacing him.

 

[Fosterson]

I've always maintained that Sokovia Joe is the 2nd worst MCU villain after the fake Mandarin.

Really? Worse than this guy?

 

[Fosterson]

Presumably, it takes the all-important turn from a guy who is understandably rocked by a trauma to a guy on a lifelong mission to take down anyone who he deems on the wrong side of the equation. He shouldn't say things like 'I'm sorry about your father. He seemed a good man.' like he said to T'challa. He should be remorseless and focused.

I respectfully disagree here. While its true that Zemo expressed some regret to T'Challa, it doesn't change the fact that he did it. And he certainly didn't show any remorse over killing the ex-Hydra guy in Cleveland or the psychiatrist played by Joe Russo, and calmly murdered the other Winter Soldiers in their sleep.

In CW, Zemo was shown to be a ruthless and efficient killer. Sure, he didn't seem to take pleasure in his atrocities (and he would have preferred it if the Hydra agent had simply told him where the Siberia facility was), but ultimately for him the ends justified the means. It's also worth remembering that Zemo was a member of a Sokovian covert assassination squad, so despite having a family, he was also clearly a man accustomed to violence.

Just because he had an understandable reason to hate the Avengers doesn't make his crimes any less despicable.