Falcon and Winter Soldier Baron Z E M O - He's back for more vengeance?

[Fosterson]

There was an alien invasion already in Avengers in 2012 and in Infinity War and Endgame. He must already be aware of them all these years so he's had plenty of time to think about these matters.

Yes. Not to mention that Thor was AT the Battle of Sokovia where Zemo's family were killed. He may have even seen Thor with his own eyes.

 

[Dr. Evil]

There was an alien invasion already in Avengers in 2012 and in Infinity War and Endgame. He must already be aware of them all these years so he's had plenty of time to think about these matters. And if he survived the Snap, he must have noticed half the population were missing (caused by an alien - ie Thanos).

Also Thor and all the Asgardians are technically aliens since they're not of Earth. I don't see Zemo aligning himself with them. All the Guardians apart from Quill are also aliens.

He'll align with aliens intent on destroying the Earth if it meant destroying the Avengers and putting an end to Superheroes. If Kang The Conqueror in the MCU is an alien and not a human from the far future, I zee Zemo aligning himself with Kang just so that he can get his wish at seeing the end of the Avengers and superheroes once and for all even if it meant the destruction of Earth.

I feel different about Thunderbolt Ross, especially if he's Red Hulk. I am the mindset that in event of an alien invasion, Red Hulk would align himself on the side of the Avengers, mostly for his own legacy. Ross is a decorated US Military man of 40 years, even receiving the Congressional Medal of Honor and being US Secretary of State. There would be no way he throws that all away in the event of another alien invasion to go against the Avengers. He would also know that the Sokovia Accords would not be enforceable in light of another alien invasion because aliens won't care about an Earth based treaty. Ross is smart enough to know that the Accords wouldn't mean anything in that situation.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Yes. Not to mention that Thor was AT the Battle of Sokovia where Zemo's family were killed. He may have even seen Thor with his own eyes.

So when he says "superheroes should not be allowed to exist" he also means Thor. That's interesting. That's how I would see him aligning with an alien intent on destroying the Avengers and conquering Earth.

 

[Fosterson]

I am very curious to see what Zemo's reaction will be when he sees an alien for the first time. His agenda is "Superheroes should not be allowed to exist" but would that apply to superheroes from other worlds too, like Thor and the Guardians or is he not even thinking about that and that only applies to the ones on Earth?

It would definitely apply to Thor, given that Thor is a member of the Avengers, and he was present at the Battle of Sokovia, where Zemo's wife, father and son were killed. Heck, Zemo would probably regard Thor as being more dangerous than the likes of Cap or IM, given how powerful he is.

As for the GoTG, Zemo probably has never heard of them, but they are still enhanced vigilantes and so for that reason I think he would oppose them as well.

Does he align himself with an alien trying to destroy the Avengers due to his hatred of the Avengers if the time comes?

Of all the alien invasions we've seen so far in the MCU (Kree in CM, Loki in Avengers, Malekith in TDW and Thanos in IW/EG), I couldn't see Zemo supporting any of them because I don't think he would want either the universe to be destroyed or the people of Earth to subjugated under some intergalactic despot. Thanos, Loki, Malekith etc are all superpowered beings and as such Zemo would despise them just as much as the Avengers.

It's worth remembering that in CW, Zemo makes it explicitly clear that he had zero sympathy for Hydra, even though they were enemies of the Avengers. He tells the guy in Cleveland that Hydra deserves its place on history's ash heap, and later murders the other Winter Soldiers instead of unleashing them. His line to Bucky ("You really thought I wanted more of you?") is pretty telling as it shows that he views all superpowered beings as dangerous, regardless of whether they call themselves a hero or a villain.

 

[Dark Raven]

He'll align with aliens intent on destroying the Earth if it meant destroying the Avengers and putting an end to Superheroes. If Kang The Conqueror in the MCU is an alien and not a human from the far future, I zee Zemo aligning himself with Kang just so that he can get his wish at seeing the end of the Avengers and superheroes once and for all even if it meant the destruction of Earth.

I feel different about Thunderbolt Ross, especially if he's Red Hulk. I am the mindset that in event of an alien invasion, Red Hulk would align himself on the side of the Avengers, mostly for his own legacy. Ross is a decorated US Military man of 40 years, even receiving the Congressional Medal of Honor and being US Secretary of State. There would be no way he throws that all away in the event of another alien invasion to go against the Avengers. He would also know that the Sokovia Accords would not be enforceable in light of another alien invasion because aliens won't care about an Earth based treaty. Ross is smart enough to know that the Accords wouldn't mean anything in that situation.

Well let's scale it down a little for the purpose of this argument. Imagine if Sokovia still existed and it was just his little village that were destroyed in Age of Ultron, and aliens were now intent on destroying Sokovia. Now imagine if the Avengers had a base of operations in Sokovia. Would Baron Zemo be content in allowing and helping aliens to destroy Sokovia (his own country) just to destroy the Avengers? Because if that were the case he would be worse than what he imagines the Avengers to be.

Now scaling it up, if he is happy to have aliens destroy the earth (where he also lives) just to destroy the Avengers who live on earth, then he's an idiot. Where does Zemo plan to live afterwards and enjoy his conquest of the Avengers when the aliens will likely destroy him as well as an earthling? If he's going to get his vengeance, at least just destroy the Avengers compound, or even just New York.

It would be like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

[Fosterson]

Well let's scale it down a little for the purpose of this argument. Imagine if Sokovia still existed and it was just his little village that were destroyed in Age of Ultron, and aliens were now intent on destroying Sokovia. Now imagine if the Avengers had a base of operations in Sokovia. Would Baron Zemo be content in allowing and helping aliens to destroy Sokovia (his own country) just to destroy the Avengers? Because if that were the case he would be worse than what he imagines the Avengers to be.

Now scaling it up, if he is happy to have aliens destroy the earth (where he also lives) just to destroy the Avengers who live on earth, then he's an idiot. Where does Zemo plan to live afterwards and enjoy his conquest of the Avengers when the aliens will likely destroy him as well as an earthling? If he's going to get his vengeance, at least just destroy the Avengers compound, or even just New York.

It would be like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Yes. And it's worth remembering that in CW Zemo didn't actually WANT to bomb the UN and kill a bunch of civilians. The only reason he did it was because the Hydra guy in Cleveland wouldn't tell him where the base where Bucky was kept was. He even said that he didn't look forward to having to use "bloodier methods" to find what he needed.

Zemo is ruthless and brutal, sure. But he never struck me as a nihilist.

 

[Dark Raven]

It's worth remembering that in CW, Zemo makes it explicitly clear that he had zero sympathy for Hydra, even though they were enemies of the Avengers. He tells the guy in Cleveland that Hydra deserves its place on history's ash heap, and later murders the other Winter Soldiers instead of unleashing them. His line to Bucky ("You really thought I wanted more of you?") is pretty telling as it shows that he views all superpowered beings as dangerous, regardless of whether they call themselves a hero or a villain.

That being the case, why would Zemo even side with aliens? They are still superpowered beings, even though they're not of earth. Wouldn't Thanos be the ultimate superpowered "vigilante"? And if Galactus showed up, isn't he doing the equivalent of destroying Sokovia, except on a massive scale?

If this were Independence Day (the movie) and massive ships showed up above the earth to destroy various cities, I can't see Zemo helping them. They don't even care about him or need his help. And say he has a base in some other country like Croatia, then that's going to be destroyed too right where he is.

I think aliens would generate the same kind of hatred in Zemo as super beings do.

 

[Schlosser85]

Yes. And it's worth remembering that in CW Zemo didn't actually WANT to bomb the UN and kill a bunch of civilians. The only reason he did it was because the Hydra guy in Cleveland wouldn't tell him where the base where Bucky was kept was. He even said that he didn't look forward to having to use "bloodier methods" to find what he needed.

Zemo is ruthless and brutal, sure. But he never struck me as a nihilist.

He also expressed regret to T'Challa for killing his father, said he seemed like a good man, and even seemed to respect T'Challa's determination to avenge him ("he seemed a good man...with a dutiful son").

I don't think Zemo is a nihilist, or even completely uncaring.

 

[Dark Raven]

Also, Zemo should watch that controversial interview with Liam Neeson where he said that about 20 years ago, when a female friend of his daughter (or something like that - I can't remember the exact details) was assaulted by a black man, he was filled with rage. He expressed how he wanted to go out and kill or seriously injure any black person he could find regardless of whether they were involved or not. However, he later realised he was wrong and was shocked at his own feelings.

Now isn't Zemo like Liam Neeson was 20 years ago? Yes, the Avengers had a hand in destroying Sokovia. But does that mean now he should take his vengeance out on all super powered beings regardless of whether they were even involved in the destruction of his own country?

Imagine it were not the Avengers who destroyed Sokovia but the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor. Now many Americans were understandably angry at them but that resulted in racism towards any Asians who weren't even involved, regardless of whether they were even Japanese. Or think about Covid-19. Some people are racist towards any Asians irrespective of where they're from or whether they have even visited China or not. Zemo seems to be like them, except here it's not quite racism (because it's not about race) but some other "ism" - whatever term you'd use towards super beings.

Obviously the little talk Black Panther had with Zemo at the end of Civil War didn't have any effect on him.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I did say before today that my prediction for Zemo was a crazy one due to his hatred of the Avengers. I don't actually think it will happen in reality, just a crazy prediction. In reality, I do think Zemo will reluctantly align with the Avengers in Avengers 5 if it meant saving the world. He still might not see the Avengers in a positive light, but he also might see them as the lesser of two evils. I think both him and General Ross (if he's Red Hulk) will be reluctant allies of the Avengers in Avengers 5. Perhaps after Avengers 5, Zemo will realize the Avengers aren't that bad and his hatred of them will diminish knowing that he saved the world and perhaps he'll be more of an anti-hero down the line.

 

[Dark Raven]

Would Baron Zemo really form or join the Thunderbolts if he hates super powered beings so much? He didn't want more super soldiers and these essentially fall into the same category.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Would Baron Zemo really form or join the Thunderbolts if he hates super powered beings so much? He didn't want more super soldiers and these essentially fall into the same category.

Like I said, it was a crazy prediction. Caught up in all of the Crazy WandaVision predictions hype.

He did say in the trailer though that he doesn't want anymore Superheroes.

 

[Dark Raven]

Like I said, it was a crazy prediction. Caught up in all of the Crazy WandaVision predictions hype.

He did say in the trailer though that he doesn't want anymore Superheroes.

I didn't even read your post so it wasn't in response to that but just my own thoughts.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I didn't even read your post so it wasn't in response to that but just my own thoughts.

Gotcha. I do think that if Zemo had to choose between Avengers or alien threat, it would reluctantly be the Avengers.

 

[Schlosser85]

Also, Zemo should watch that controversial interview with Liam Neeson where he said that about 20 years ago, when a female friend of his daughter (or something like that - I can't remember the exact details) was assaulted by a black man, he was filled with rage. He expressed how he wanted to go out and kill or seriously injure any black person he could find regardless of whether they were involved or not. However, he later realised he was wrong and was shocked at his own feelings.

Now isn't Zemo like Liam Neeson was 20 years ago? Yes, the Avengers had a hand in destroying Sokovia. But does that mean now he should take his vengeance out on all super powered beings regardless of whether they were even involved in the destruction of his own country?

Imagine it were not the Avengers who destroyed Sokovia but the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor. Now many Americans were understandably angry at them but that resulted in racism towards any Asians who weren't even involved, regardless of whether they were even Japanese. Or think about Covid-19. Some people are racist towards any Asians irrespective of where they're from or whether they have even visited China or not. Zemo seems to be like them, except here it's not quite racism (because it's not about race) but some other "ism" - whatever term you'd use towards super beings.

Obviously the little talk Black Panther had with Zemo at the end of Civil War didn't have any effect on him.

Well Liam Neeson snapped out of it after a brief period of blind fury. He didn't spend a year meticulously devising a convoluted plan to destroy all black men by manipulating them into fighting each other

Zemo is quite a bit further gone. He already clearly had come to see super-soldiers and the like in general as a menace, given his execution of the other Winter Soldiers and his "did you really think I wanted more of you?", and now he seems to be leaning even harder into a broad "supers are bad" agenda.

 

[chamber-music]

MCU Zemo reminds me a little bit of Butcher from The Boys with his whole I hate supes and want vengeance vendetta.

I could see the MCU Thunderbolts being like the Boys. A black ops group designed to keep the Avengers or any other enhanced/powered group or individual in line. MCU Zemo also has a black ops background.

 

[metaphysician]

Yes. And it's worth remembering that in CW Zemo didn't actually WANT to bomb the UN and kill a bunch of civilians. The only reason he did it was because the Hydra guy in Cleveland wouldn't tell him where the base where Bucky was kept was. He even said that he didn't look forward to having to use "bloodier methods" to find what he needed.

Zemo is ruthless and brutal, sure. But he never struck me as a nihilist.

He also struck me as possessing unusually high self-awareness for a murderous villain. Yes, he is ultimately motivated by hatred and self-loathing such that he has to direct it outward at a relevant target lest he just put a gun to his own head and pull the trigger. . . but he *knows* this, intellectually, and is capable of putting it to the side temporarily if he has a good pragmatic reason. He's not a blind fanatic.

Which is to say, even though he uses a vendetta against the concept of superheroism as his own personal coping mechanism, I can't really see him siding with an overwhelming external threat against the planet Earth. Not unless said external foe did a really good job selling him on the idea that, say, Kang ruling Earth would both be a tolerable state of affairs and advance his own ideology. And even then. . . look, I 100% expect that Zemo is eventually going to screw over the government in some Thunderbolts/Masters of Evil shaped plot, I'm pretty sure he'd ultimately backstab Kang too.

 

[Dark Raven]

MCU Zemo reminds me a little bit of Butcher from The Boys with his whole I hate supes and want vengeance vendetta.

I could see the MCU Thunderbolts being like the Boys. A black ops group designed to keep the Avengers or any other enhanced/powered group or individual in line. MCU Zemo also has a black ops background.

If some of the Thunderbolts are previous known villains who have been responsible for the destruction of cities or killed innocent civilians, then how is Zemo going to want to be associated with them just because they're a black-op team now? It would be like if some of the Avengers were now members of black-op teams and Zemo had to be on the same team as them. Or what if, after all his killing of people in Endgame, Hawkeye was now a wanted criminal but then recruited to the Thunderbolts. Why would Zemo want to work with him at all since Clint had a hand in the destruction of Sokovia?

Because of the background they've given Zemo, I don't see him looking out for anyone but himself. Some of those on the Thunderbolts would be the very types he would hate. I could see him even trying to kill them off whenever the chance presents itself.

 

[MOVIELORD101]

Honestly, I don't understand Zemo's motives. He tried to the get the Avengers to turn on each other.....because his family died? Uh, that's kind of hypocritical. A lot of people lost loved ones when Ultron ****ed up Sokovia, and I don't see THEM wanting Iron Man and company dead like this! Plus, I'm sure his family wouldn't have want him to harm innocent people, WHICH IS WHAT HE DID. Killing T'Chaka had no purpose; that poor man was completely innocent in all this. And even THEN, with the main Avengers team gone, WHY BOTHER trying to stir up more ****? "I will not leave my work unfinished." What is he like Jigsaw where he thinks he's some crusader doing the right thing or like Heath Ledger's Joker where he's trying to prove that superheroes and other people are just as bad deep down as he is? WTF is his DEAL?!?!?

 

[TheVileOne]

Now, on a personal level, I'm not a fan of family man, blue collar Zemo.

IMHO, Zemo should be an aristocratic elitist who wants to bend the earth to his will and sees Captain America as a blood feud rival. He's also a manipulative scoundrel.

That said, his motives seems pretty sound to me. He holds the Avengers responsible for Sokovia, and he wants to destroy them from within.

 

[Schlosser85]

Honestly, I don't understand Zemo's motives. He tried to the get the Avengers to turn on each other.....because his family died? Uh, that's kind of hypocritical. A lot of people lost loved ones when Ultron ****ed up Sokovia, and I don't see THEM wanting Iron Man and company dead like this! Plus, I'm sure his family wouldn't have want him to harm innocent people, WHICH IS WHAT HE DID. Killing T'Chaka had no purpose; that poor man was completely innocent in all this. And even THEN, with the main Avengers team gone, WHY BOTHER trying to stir up more ****? "I will not leave my work unfinished." What is he like Jigsaw where he thinks he's some crusader doing the right thing or like Heath Ledger's Joker where he's trying to prove that superheroes and other people are just as bad deep down as he is? WTF is his DEAL?!?!?

There is nothing confusing about Zemo's motives and I feel like you're really making it out to be way harder to follow than it actually is.

His family was killed in an Avengers battle, and he....blames The Avengers. Of course everyone who loses loved ones doesn't turn into a vengeance-obsessed villain, but that's hardly a rare villainous motivation/backstory either.

He didn't kill T'Chaka to kill T'Chaka. He framed Bucky for the terrorist bombing to flush him out of hiding.

Also I don't think it's a big stretch that, even with Iron Man, Captain America, Black Widow, etc. not being around anymore, he would continue to see superheroes and enhanced people as a destructive force in the world. And it's even less of a stretch that he would target Bucky and Sam, both of whom were very closely tied to Captain America.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I think the idea that Baron Zemo is going to be the main villain may be a bit of a misdirect since it seems in one of the trailers that he's leading Sam and Bucky around in a nightclub, likely meaning he's possibly working with them for some unknown reason.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think the idea that Baron Zemo is going to be the main villain may be a bit of a misdirect since it seems in one of the trailers that he's leading Sam and Bucky around in a nightclub, likely meaning he's possibly working with them for some unknown reason.

It could also be a trap.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

It could also be a trap.

That's also possible. There are some definite curveballs/misdirects/intentional omissions that Marvel seems to be doing with their promos to hide the real premise. Their hiding of John Walker from most of the trailers and TV spots is also another sign that they're holding quite a bit back.

 

[TheVileOne]

That's also possible. There are some definite curveballs/misdirects/intentional omissions that Marvel seems to be doing with their promos to hide the real premise. Their hiding of John Walker from most of the trailers and TV spots is also another sign that they're holding quite a bit back.

Feige is a cagey dude, and he likes to bait and switch the audience a lot.