'Batgirl' movie?

[jmc]

I'm old school. It's either Barbara or no-one for me.

 

[semper]

I'm old school. It's either Barbara or no-one for me.

Barbara can still be a major character in the movie as Oracle. Wouldn't you rather see a Batgirl movie with Barbara in it (even out of costume) that's embraced for being unique and different, than another Green Lantern type deal that people find generic?

Because a Barbara Gordon Batgirl will almost certainly be generic (unless they are remaking The Killing Joke). Cassandra Cain will offer something potentially special for cinematic storytelling.

 

[Boy Scout]

Barbara Gordon was far more interesting as Oracle than she ever was as Batgirl. I agree that putting her back in the suit was a huge regression for the character. As a costumed hero, she's so vanilla (even her cutesy costumed look in her current run and Birds Of Prey is grating. She looks like a 14 year old cosplayer. Criminals should laugh at the sight of her, as she not in the least bit intimidating. Barbara as Batgirl is only cute for nostalgia's sake). She literally offers nothing to the Bat-Universe as a costumed crimefighter that Huntress and Batwoman don't offer a hundred times better.

Cassandra Cain at least offers something unique and different. And after Wonder Woman and Black Panther, that's the name of the game. By the time Captain Marvel, Wonder Woman 2 and Black Widow turn up, another costumed hetrosexual white woman will be passe. Cassandra being Asian (or half Asian, but those features dominate her phenotype) will be a milestone that will draw a lot of attention. And also her speaking "disablity" is a hugely interesting and unique angle that will also make the character stand out. Her story of opedial torture and abuse with both her parents (David Cain and Shiva) is faaaaar more interesting than Barbara Gordon deciding she wants to dress up as Batgirl because she see's Batman doing it and thinks it's cool.

Problem with DC is that there are far too many nostalgia stans in positions of influence. People like Geoff Johns who want to push the likes of Hal Jordan and Barry Allen down people's throats, when John Stewart and Wally West are probably more cinematically appealing. Cassandra is far more cinematic a character than Barbara as Batgirl (imagine those silent ninja level fight scenes Cass would pull off). But Barbara has the nostalgia factor with a lot of creators who'd rather push her, instead of acknowledging Cassandra is the better cinematic option.

Marvel wasn't beholden to Hank Pym as Ant-Man, even though he was the original and probably the more popular choice among many fans. Yet they went with Scott Lang, because his ex-con trying to see his daughter storyline, offered something far more cinematically interesting than yet another superhero scientist giving himself powers and fighting crime.

Barbara should be like Hank Pym in the Ant-Man movies (the original, now a mentor as Oracle). And Cassandra should be the lead.

As opposed to the scores of heterosexual white men who dominate the genre?

 

[semper]

As opposed to the scores of heterosexual white men who dominate the genre?

It is what it is. Batgirl will need a unique hook, as it's not a Marvel movie (they all succeed), and the novelty of seeing female lead superheros will be gone.

 

[Boy Scout]

I don’t think that’s what it is. There are plenty of arguments you could make for not using Barbara; that isn’t one of them.

 

[jmc]

Barbara can still be a major character in the movie as Oracle. Wouldn't you rather see a Batgirl movie with Barbara in it (even out of costume) that's embraced for being unique and different, than another Green Lantern type deal that people find generic?

Because a Barbara Gordon Batgirl will almost certainly be generic (unless they are remaking The Killing Joke). Cassandra Cain will offer something potentially special for cinematic storytelling.

Like I said, I'm old school. Batgirl has and always will be Barbara Gordon to me. If you want different I think a story based loosely off the 'Girls Night Out' episode of the 90's animated series could work, teaming Batgirl and Supergirl against Ivy, Harley and Livewire. That would essentially be the 'World's Finest' movie we never got.

 

[semper]

I don’t think that’s what it is. There are plenty of arguments you could make for not using Barbara; that isn’t one of them.

Well, I think I made plenty of good arguments against using Barbara than the one line you decided to single out.

 

[Boy Scout]

Because that was the only one I disagreed with.

I also think it was just an ignorant statement to make.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't quite get the Whedon hatred. How much of it is due to the accusations made by his ex-wife, and how much of it is due to him now being the scapegoat for JL's failure in some people's eyes? Genuinely asking.

 

[Boy Scout]

I’m not particularly anti-Whedon, but if I were to dislike him for any reason, it’d be because of his ex-wife.

As a filmmaker, I didn’t think his Avengers movies were all that extraordinary.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I don't quite get the Whedon hatred. How much of it is due to the accusations made by his ex-wife, and how much of it is due to him now being the scapegoat for JL's failure in some people's eyes? Genuinely asking.

It's because of AoU, his failed WW script and now JL bombing (i dont blame him for btw). I'm sure his ex-wife's story is also part of it but I think it is mainly because of the above.

Batgirl was his comeback story and now it's gone so he fans only have the last thing to remember him by, both of which were failures for the most part.

 

[jmc]

AoU gets way too much hate.

 

[Boy Scout]

I don’t think people hate so much as find it unremarkable for an Avengers sequel.

 

[misslane38]

Problem with DC is that there are far too many nostalgia stans in positions of influence. People like Geoff Johns who want to push the likes of Hal Jordan and Barry Allen down people's throats, when John Stewart and Wally West are probably more cinematically appealing.

As far as I'm aware, they are using John Stewart in their Green Lantern movie.

 

[Flint Marko]

It's because of AoU, his failed WW script and now JL bombing (i dont blame him for btw). I'm sure his ex-wife's story is also part of it but I think it is mainly because of the above.

Batgirl was his comeback story and now it's gone so he fans only have the last thing to remember him by, both of which were failures for the most part.

AoU was an undeniably successful film across the board, JL's utter failure wasn't anywhere near his fault, and hating him for a script he wrote over a decade ago is just reaching.

None of that strikes me as a valid reason to dislike the guy. The accusations from his ex-wife strike me as far more damning, but even then he's just guilty of being a sleaze-ball and a bad husband, unless there are important details I'm missing.

That said I still don't get the salt, particularly from professionals like Jenkins or Snyder. I really want to know what he did to get on their bad side. And I don't say this as a massive Whedon fan by any means - I loved the first two Avengers movies, but I was thrilled when the Russo brothers took the reins for Infinity War.

 

[terry78]

He was a fanboy darling who had a fall. That's why.

 

[2kt09]

Barbara can still be a major character in the movie as Oracle. Wouldn't you rather see a Batgirl movie with Barbara in it (even out of costume) that's embraced for being unique and different, than another Green Lantern type deal that people find generic?

Sure...but how do you make it generic when there isn't really a template for a sidekick flick? Kick-Ass 2 maybe?

 

[BestGirl]

Isn't Cassandra Cain mute? How do you build a movie around a character like that?

 

[atomicbattery]

Barbara Gordon- as Batgirl- presents more dramatic storytelling possibilities than almost any character in the DC universe. She is the daughter of Jim Gordon, Batman’s greatest ally.
The natural complexities of those relationships- between Batman and Batgirl, Barbara and her father, Batman and Commissioner Gordon- was understood by Paul Dini when he wrote the great ‘Over the Edge’ episode of the animated series (I loved when Dini got choked up while discussing that episode with Kevin Smith on ‘Fatman on Batman’ years ago. It had evident meaning to him, and it should- ‘Over the Edge’ is just that good).
If you start off with Barbara as Oracle, the worst thing that could happen- the thing that tortures her, despite her joy at being Batgirl, is that this thing that fulfills her could actually destroy the bond between Batman and her father- has already happened.

We’ve had two subsequent Batgirls. One is the daughter of two B-list assassins. The other is the daughter of a C-list criminal. They are wonderful, involving characters in their own right, but neither has a biography that gives them such a compelling, fundamental connection to Batman. If there never had been a Batgirl, and DC were to send out pitches for such a character right now, I can’t imagine a story editor not picking ‘daughter of the commisioner’.
It was an absolutely brilliant character concept fifty years ago, and it still is today.
It’s why- sorry- you just can’t get rid of Barbara as Batgirl.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Isn't Cassandra Cain mute? How do you build a movie around a character like that?

Do it like Drive!

 

[semper]

Isn't Cassandra Cain mute? How do you build a movie around a character like that?

Quite easily. As someone mentioned, Drive.

Film is a visual medium. You can easily tell a story on imagery alone (silent movies entertained the world before talkies became a thing). And a Cassandra Batgirl movie wouldn't be silent, as she'd have plenty of supporting cast members able to talk (like Barbara as Oracle).

 

[semper]

Barbara Gordon- as Batgirl- presents more dramatic storytelling possibilities than almost any character in the DC universe. She is the daughter of Jim Gordon, Batman’s greatest ally.
The natural complexities of those relationships- between Batman and Batgirl, Barbara and her father, Batman and Commissioner Gordon- was understood by Paul Dini when he wrote the great ‘Over the Edge’ episode of the animated series (I loved when Dini got choked up while discussing that episode with Kevin Smith on ‘Fatman on Batman’ years ago. It had evident meaning to him, and it should- ‘Over the Edge’ is just that good).
If you start off with Barbara as Oracle, the worst thing that could happen- the thing that tortures her, despite her joy at being Batgirl, is that this thing that fulfills her could actually destroy the bond between Batman and her father- has already happened.

We’ve had two subsequent Batgirls. One is the daughter of two B-list assassins. The other is the daughter of a C-list criminal. They are wonderful, involving characters in their own right, but neither has a biography that gives them such a compelling, fundamental connection to Batman. If there never had been a Batgirl, and DC were to send out pitches for such a character right now, I can’t imagine a story editor not picking ‘daughter of the commisioner’.
It was an absolutely brilliant character concept fifty years ago, and it still is today.
It’s why- sorry- you just can’t get rid of Barbara as Batgirl.

This isn't a cartoon. Batgirl has to stand on her own two feet as a solo character, not guest star Batman so they can go into the "complexities of his relationship with Jim Gordon". If Barbara can't exist as an ccharacter without havng to rely on being adjacent to Batman, then she isn't that interesting. Just give her a guest spot in a Batman solo film to explore that relationship.

Lady Shiva is NOT a B-List assassin. She is canonically, the greatest martial artist in the DC universe. She's not a metahuman, but on pure skill alone, she is greater than any other fighter on DC earth. She can defeat Batman hand to hand. When Batman was broken by Bane, it was Lady Shiva he turned to to retrain him. Shiva occupies a special place within the DC universe. Describing her as some bush league B-list asassin does not do justice to her standing.

 

[Fincher]

So, to be clear, WB, who's been having trouble with their cinematic universe to the point of experiencing failure with a Justice League movie, should make a movie starring a Batgirl the general audience has never heard of who's mute, which involves a lengthy backstory where the Batgirl people have heard is in a wheelchair after being attacked by The Joker, which they would be familiar with if they'd read the comics they've never read. And this is going to work because of Drive, a movie that made $78.1 million at the box office and whose protagonist wasn't mute, just not very talkative, and didn't spend a large portion of the movie with a mask covering his whole face.

I'm not an expert on what the general audience will watch, but if I were WB, this is not the idea I'd be betting on.

 

[semper]

So, to be clear, WB, who's been having trouble with their cinematic universe to the point of experiencing failure with a Justice League movie, should make a movie starring a Batgirl the general audience has never heard of who's mute, which involves a lengthy backstory where the Batgirl people have heard is in a wheelchair after being attacked by The Joker, which they would be familiar with if they'd read the comics they've never read. And this is going to work because of Drive, a movie that made $78.1 million at the box office and whose protagonist wasn't mute, just not very talkative, and didn't spend a large portion of the movie with a mask covering his whole face.

I'm not an expert on what the general audience will watch, but if I were WB, this is not the idea I'd be betting on.

DC have thrown the kitchen sink at "iconic" characters and mostly failed. Marvel have taken unknown D to B-List characters and made them megastars.

Good storytelling, and good direction can easily turn Casandra Cain into a superstar. Her mute status is not a negative. It's a talking point and makes her interesting. Hell, Laura (X-23) in Logan was practically mute for much of the movie, and she was considered the breakout star of that movie. Cassandra Cain is not all that different to Laura, and it'd be considered a special role for a young actress. Cassandra isn't technically mute either. She just wasn't taught to communicate through words. She can talk, and her getting to grips with talking also allows for excellent character development.

And she's Asian. The first proper Asian female solo superhero on film will be an event in itself if marketed correctly (worked for Wonder Woman and Black Panther). There are plenty of angles to make a Cassandra Cain Batgirl a worthwhile calculated risk. nothing is guaranteed in life, but if I was Warners, I'd look at these factors and take the chance on Cassandra.

And Barbara's backstory can easily be explained (without even being specific about things like the Joker) in a few minutes by a skilled screenwriter, and then you can go right back to Cassandra's story. That's not an impediment.

 

[semper]

As far as I'm aware, they are using John Stewart in their Green Lantern movie.

Now that they've failed with the Ryan Reynolds Hal Jordan Green Lantern movie that people like Geoff Johns pulled for. John Stewart is now the "get out of jail" option to help reboot the franchise, when arguably he should have been the original choice over Jordan for the first GL movie, especially as he had greater familiarity to general audiences because of his popularity on the Justice League animated shows.