Batman 89 vs Batman Begins

[Cain]

Speaking of exposure to the Burton movie and it's sequels making fans of a generation. A funny thing is that I'm 29 and unlike most from my generation I didn't become a Batman fan because of Burton's movie. A year before the movie had already hit I was watching reruns of the filmation Batman cartoon and the Adam West TV series. On top of that I was also reading the comic books of the time and even earlier thanks to my older cousin's comic book collection. Reading Batman comics is actually how I learned how to read.

Matter of fact I even missed the movie in theaters because I went out of the country that summer. Though I was dying to see it and was engulfed in Batmania that entire year this was the age before movies were released around the same time on a global level so it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't until I received the home video as a gift that fall that I finally got to see it until I wore the tape lol.

 

[milost]

Nice contaminated cowl avatar change Cain. Love that episode. I'm betting since all these toy companies have the '66 license now, we'll see that variation as a toy/figure.

 

[Cain]

Great post.

I watched Mask Of The Phantasm recently and there are times when the nostalgia kicks in and other times it's just clear to me that it might be the best Batman movie of all time.

It is. Only The Dark Knight came close as far as live action goes IMO. But the good thing is I do feel we're getting a lot closer to that unanimous "definitive" Batman movie that hits all the angles for all fans.

Especially since people in hollywood now finally realize the amount of depth that exists within the source material and could be mined to create a gem of a movie even more now in light of TDKT's popularity with the mainstream.

The one thing I appreciate about Batman Begins is that it not only brought in a new generation of fans ensuring the longevity of the franchise. But it also woke up a lot of people as to how a Batman movie could be approached on a deeper thematic level. It let them know that there is more to Batman beneath the surface and opened them up to look deeper into the mythology than they had before. Sort of like what the Arkham games did with a lot of non comic book reading gamers.

 

[Cain]

Nice contaminated cowl avatar change Cain. Love that episode. I'm betting since all these toy companies have the '66 license now, we'll see that variation as a toy/figure.

I expect NECA and Hot Toys to go all in now. If they make a variant of this Batman as well I think I'll faint like a pre teen girl at a Beiber concert. It's always possible. We did get a surfer Batman action figure after all.

 

[milost]

NECA has been churning out all kinds of variants for their Predators, Robocops and Aliens.

I'd really dig a contaminated cowl West Batman variant and maybe a Kenner tribute type variation for the Keaton Batman to go along side the regular versions. It'd be a great way to take advantage of the tooling and molds.

 

[Green Goblin]

Begins explored the protagonist in a way that other CBM's haven't.

 

[Snow Queen]

Batman Begins.

 

[Cain]

Begins explored the protagonist in a way that other CBM's haven't.

False.

Maybe superhero movies but definitely not comic book movies and even that is highly arguable. I think it's blueprint Superman: The Movie for example did a much better job in that regard amongst others like Spider-Man and Iron Man.

 

[Shikamaru]

Great post.

I watched Mask Of The Phantasm recently and there are times when the nostalgia kicks in and other times it's just clear to me that it might be the best Batman movie of all time.

This is the same way I feel. MOTP is my personal favorite Batman film but when it comes to which one is objectively better, I'm often debating to myself between TDK and MOTP. Often TDK ends up being the winner for me, but I don't think MOTP is too far behind.

It is. Only The Dark Knight came close as far as live action goes IMO. But the good thing is I do feel we're getting a lot closer to that unanimous "definitive" Batman movie that hits all the angles for all fans.

Especially since people in hollywood now finally realize the amount of depth that exists within the source material and could be mined to create a gem of a movie even more now in light of TDKT's popularity with the mainstream.

The one thing I appreciate about Batman Begins is that it not only brought in a new generation of fans ensuring the longevity of the franchise. But it also woke up a lot of people as to how a Batman movie could be approached on a deeper thematic level. It let them know that there is more to Batman beneath the surface and opened them up to look deeper into the mythology than they had before. Sort of like what the Arkham games did with a lot of non comic book reading gamers.

I agree with everything you stated, especially on what BB did. Part of what I loved so much about the Nolan films was how they, as you said, took a look at Batman past the surface and approached him on a deeper level, something that hasn't fully been done before with Batman in live-action IMO. Whatever direction the reboot goes in, that is one of the things I hope does not get dropped. There is so much to explore with Batman in that regard.

I slightly disagree with you on TDK. In my opinion, TDK is the definitive Batman movie (that's not to say that it cannot ever be topped). The way I see it, it is the definitive Batman film minus the definitive Batman. It features everything that a Batman film should have - the idea of Batman, what separates him from other vigilantes and DA's, Gordon as we know him, the Batman/Gordon dynamic, Joker, the Batman/Joker dynamic, the themes of insanity revolving around the Joker, the relationship between fear and insanity, the mob vs. "freaks" element, the deeper-level approach, etc. However, the only thing I think it lacks is the definitive Batman. We have yet to see the world's greatest detective in all his might and glory on the big screen played by the definitive Batman actor who is to Batman what Christopher Reeve and RDJ were to their characters respectively.

 

[Green Goblin]

False.

Maybe superhero movies but definitely not comic book movies and even that is highly arguable. I think it's blueprint Superman: The Movie for example did a much better job in that regard amongst others like Spider-Man and Iron Man.

We learnt a lot about Bruce Wayne's character and what Batman stands for. All his fears, motives, desires and so so are all covered.

 

[Cain]

We learnt a lot about Bruce Wayne's character and what Batman stands for. All his fears, motives, desires and so so are all covered.

Yes I know this but that's not what I disagreed with. I disagree with the notion that it explored the protagonist in a way that other CBM's haven't. Movies like Oldboy & American Splendor had already beaten it to the punch years before Begins even hit theaters. On top of that there is still a whole lot about Bruce Wayne/Batman that BB didn't cover that could still be covered by any future Batman movies.

 

[Cain]

We have yet to see the world's greatest detective in all his might and glory on the big screen played by the definitive Batman actor who is to Batman what Christopher Reeve and RDJ were to their characters respectively.

Yeah this is true. I loved Keaton and even loved Bale as Batman in TDK unlike many others but there is definite room for improvement.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Begins 9/10
Batman 6/10

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Batman '89 has more memorable/iconic music, setting, dialogue, action, batmobile, etc.

Plus it just happens to be one of my favorite all-time movies.

I never liked how Begins butchered Batman's origin. It makes it look like ninjitsu is 90% of Batman' training when it should be less than 10%.

So yeah, Batman 89 by a county mile.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I love them both for different reasons, but I decided to go with Batman '89.

Begins Pros:

- My favorite interpretation of Jim Gordon
- Liam Neeson's amazing Ra's Al Ghul, one of the best on-screen Batman villains to date IMO
- Love all the "elemental" bat sequences, i.e. Bruce in the cave and the sonar device are just classic on screen moments to me now.
- Favorite interpretation of Alfred
- Enjoy the "two fathers" thematic device
- Great car chase scene, love the whole finale action sequence

Batman '89:

- It has the Joker
- Lots of great imagery and deep themes if you are looking for them, but it doesn't fill the film with too much exposition or beat you over the head with said themes
- Its more tightly and concisely written, flows better
- Favorite Batmobile
- Much better soundtrack than Begins
- Michael Keaton IS Batman
- A real love interest from the comics instead of a made-up plot device character

 

[Cain]

When it comes to why I prefer Batman to Batman Begins what it all boils down to is this. As a film I believe that Batman was more successful at achieving what it set out to do than Begins was. They both set out to do completely different things but in terms of being the complete package one did a better job than the other.

It's like someone said earlier in this thread; Batman was more successful at feeling like a cohesive movie than Begins was when it comes to consistency. In the sense that Begins had some weird tonal shifts sometimes which almost made it seem like you were watching 3 different movies at times. It wasn't as consistent in terms of tone as Batman was. Both are cream of the crop representations of the spirit of the comics though.

 

[Elevator Man]

Why do I get the feeling that this thread was made to erupt a Nolan/Burton war among fans?

 

[shauner111]

Batman has very fun memorable music. But the soundtrack to Begins just touches my soul on another level. Especially the subtle music when Bruce thinks of his parents.

89 has a THEME that is complete from the get-go. This is the Batman, that's what it's saying. It's cool.

But Begins gives me chills because it's this constant building up to something big, without getting there. I find that brilliant. These building notes, swells, etc. And the emotional stuff is awesome. I also love how dark it gets when representing the League of Shadows versus Joker's Prince music (which is fun).

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Why do I get the feeling that this thread was made to erupt a Nolan/Burton war among fans?

There's nothing better to do other than cry about Snyder/Goyer doing a half-assed reboot of Batman.

 

[Shikamaru]

Why do I get the feeling that this thread was made to erupt a Nolan/Burton war among fans?

I don't think it was made for that reason but these type of threads always evolve into that at some point.

 

[BatLobster]

It's kind of a philosophical conundrum for me. If there was no Batman 89, we'd never have a Batman Begins. Logically, a film like Batman Begins should've come first, not the other way around. A full origin and all. But, it's the lack of a true origin film in the first place that allowed Nolan to step in and fill that gap in 2005.

Since the question is, "what's a better film?" I had to go with Begins by a hair. In terms of which I like more I find myself debating. But I feel that Begins is the more coherent work. It does spell its themes out way more than Batman 89, but there's something about going on a journey with a character and experiencing that evolution that ends up having more resonance for me.

What I enjoy about Begins is that it doesn't assume audience familiarity with Batman for the most part. It played things so straight, as if this were the first Batman story ever told, and it actually attempts to define Batman as a character in the process.

Batman 89 revels in the iconography of Batman and is more about celebrating and honoring that icon than anything else. Batman is already essentially defined before the movie even starts, which is wonderful.

Now, there are so many other aspects of a film besides the script. I mean, Batman 89's set design, score, atmosphere, etc...it's all classic and unparalleled. A lot of that stuff defined our perception of Batman for those of us who grew up on this movie. But to make this decision I had to strip away all the bells and whistles and get right down to the heart of each film. And I feel like Begins has a fuller, more well-rounded heart. Because it's actually a Bruce Wayne movie.

So, Begins it is.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

When it comes to why I prefer Batman to Batman Begins what it all boils down to is this. As a film I believe that Batman was more successful at achieving what it set out to do than Begins was. They both set out to do completely different things but in terms of being the complete package one did a better job than the other.

It's like someone said earlier in this thread; Batman was more successful at feeling like a cohesive movie than Begins was when it comes to consistency. In the sense that Begins had some weird tonal shifts sometimes which almost made it seem like you were watching 3 different movies at times. It wasn't as consistent in terms of tone as Batman was. Both are cream of the crop representations of the spirit of the comics though.

That's finally the thing. For the tone Begins proposed, the one-liners Goyer insisted in sho****ning came up horribly. Maybe in a different movie that wouldn't have been so annoying.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Why does Goyer get credit for all the bad things in TDKT but none of the good things.

He's officially the Avi Arad of the Bat-universe.

 

[AnneFan]

I prefer Begins.

The inclusion of Lucius Fox and his banter with Bruce.
Michael Caine is fantastic, and Oldman as Gordon.
Neeson is Neeson.
I like Keaton but prefer Bale.
I enjoyed the journey Bruce went on.
Arkham Asylum is featured.
The Narrows setting where it pours with rain.
B89's end scene is good but I prefer the ending of BB.

 

[milost]

Why does Goyer get credit for all the bad things in TDKT but none of the good things.

He's officially the Avi Arad of the Bat-universe.

Especially when the Begins script/screenplay is mostly his baby and his work.

The first draft/scrupt that was leaked online was all his and wasn't that mich different from the final product except for some line changes, altered scenes, etc. which was all him. The origin, the LoS, the non-linear flashback story-telling, Scarecrow, Ducard/Ra's, Fox, Narrows, was Goyer's work. People seem to think all he did were the bad lines like "nice coat", "it's gonna blow", etc.