Batman - a Vertigo character at heart.

[obin_gam]

So, wether you love or hate Morrisons run, you cant argue that he's not taking Batman of of his comfort zone and putting him where the character wasnt really meant to be in the first place... I am talking about the influences of making a pulp comic book with a Sherlock Holmes/Zorro-kind-a-guy.

It was only after WW2 that DC shifted the directions and went to a more fantastical super hero vibe. I dont remember from where but theres an interview which revealed that Batman wasn't even supposed to be in the same universe as Superman and the others. Hell, every DC character was there own before DC decided they wanted what Marvel had... a connected universe... aka. the stupidest idea DC ever had

That got me thinking... wouldnt Batman fit more well in the Vertigo universe? Sure you got supernatural elements there as well but compared to super-psycadelic-goody-too-shoes-flamboyant "DeeCeeUniverse" its grounded enough for a mentally ill rich dude who dresses up as a bat and beats people to a pulp with his bare hands...

So lets make a comparison, which of the following places fits a character like Batman the best:

DCU: Everyone exists basically in the same place, a universe where color is power, thousands of super gods and übergods and whatnots exists, every hero have superpowers, Superman exists which in essence makes all other heroes useless, everyone likes everyone. Flying cars everything, timetravel...

or

Vertigo: Seperate "universe" for just about every character, If you want a connection with other famous characters, set Gotham City in the Hellblazer-universe, where demons appear albeit they are scary and not colorful and fantastical...

I know I know, its a tough sale to move character from one universe to another... oh wait its not. Punisher Max under Garth Ennis was the thing DC should have stolen and put Batman through, instead of that other idea of making one big friendly universe where everyone lives together.

And also, yes I am aware of Earth One and am psyched about it. Not the same thing thogh as what I am talking about = a regular monthly Batman comic book release by Vertigo.

 

[CConn]

Nah, I like my Batman campy and trading quips with Aquaman.

 

[Drz]

That got me thinking... wouldnt Batman fit more well in the Vertigo universe? Sure you got supernatural elements there as well but compared to super-psycadelic-goody-too-shoes-flamboyant "DeeCeeUniverse" its grounded enough for a mentally ill rich dude who dresses up as a bat and beats people to a pulp with his bare hands...

So you want more Frank Miller's Dark Knight: Boy Wonder or you wish to wait for Geoff Johns' Batman Earth One?

 

[Tron Bonne]

That got me thinking... wouldnt Batman fit more well in the Vertigo universe? Sure you got supernatural elements there as well but compared to super-psycadelic-goody-too-shoes-flamboyant "DeeCeeUniverse" its grounded enough for a mentally ill rich dude who dresses up as a bat and beats people to a pulp with his bare hands...

DCU: Everyone exists basically in the same place, a universe where color is power, thousands of super gods and übergods and whatnots exists, every hero have superpowers, Superman exists which in essence makes all other heroes useless, everyone likes everyone. Flying cars everything, timetravel...

Heh, I'm guessing you don't really read a whole lot of these comics do you? Or any maybe.

 

[The Batman]

Oh great....another "I cant stand the fact that Batman has been and always will be a superhero" person, with the already cliche and stale idea of doing a "mature readers" batman book set apart from the DCU.


Its like people dont realize that the only reason Batman exists was because they wanted to cash in on the superhero boom.

 

[Manic]

Batman is so dark and grounded, he just has to be a Vertigo comic. Because, you see, Vertigo doesn't publish anything that mixes the grim with the bright and whimsical.


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm still on volume 9 of Fables.

 

[Spike_x1]

Lawl.

 

[Kitsune]

Marvel didn't exist when DC decided to do World's Finest... Though you might be referring to Timely (Marvel's precursor) who had Namor and the Human Torch fight on a regular basis.

 

[Watchman]

So, wether you love or hate Morrisons run, you cant argue that he's not taking Batman of of his comfort zone and putting him where the character wasnt really meant to be in the first place... I am talking about the influences of making a pulp comic book with a Sherlock Holmes/Zorro-kind-a-guy.

It was only after WW2 that DC shifted the directions and went to a more fantastical super hero vibe. I dont remember from where but theres an interview which revealed that Batman wasn't even supposed to be in the same universe as Superman and the others. Hell, every DC character was there own before DC decided they wanted what Marvel had... a connected universe... aka. the stupidest idea DC ever had

That got me thinking... wouldnt Batman fit more well in the Vertigo universe? Sure you got supernatural elements there as well but compared to super-psycadelic-goody-too-shoes-flamboyant "DeeCeeUniverse" its grounded enough for a mentally ill rich dude who dresses up as a bat and beats people to a pulp with his bare hands...

So lets make a comparison, which of the following places fits a character like Batman the best:

DCU: Everyone exists basically in the same place, a universe where color is power, thousands of super gods and übergods and whatnots exists, every hero have superpowers, Superman exists which in essence makes all other heroes useless, everyone likes everyone. Flying cars everything, timetravel...

or

Vertigo: Seperate "universe" for just about every character, If you want a connection with other famous characters, set Gotham City in the Hellblazer-universe, where demons appear albeit they are scary and not colorful and fantastical...

I know I know, its a tough sale to move character from one universe to another... oh wait its not. Punisher Max under Garth Ennis was the thing DC should have stolen and put Batman through, instead of that other idea of making one big friendly universe where everyone lives together.

And also, yes I am aware of Earth One and am psyched about it. Not the same thing thogh as what I am talking about = a regular monthly Batman comic book release by Vertigo.

 

[fifthfiend]

 

[obin_gam]

lol yeah i figured it would be a hard sale :P

Heh, I'm guessing you don't really read a whole lot of these comics do you? Or any maybe.

i read green lantern, gl corps, izombie, hellblazer and sweet tooth. (along with the bat books)

Batman is so dark and grounded, he just has to be a Vertigo comic. Because, you see, Vertigo doesn't publish anything that mixes the grim with the bright and whimsical.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm still on volume 9 of Fables.

I'm not saying that, i am comparing the "level of fantastique" between the two. and its clear that one do outshine the other.

 

[CConn]

I thin my favorite part of this thread is the subtle condemnation with "Keep him together with Superman and his friends " and "Vertigo is his "real" home!"

He might as well have just said that all the cool kids vote Vertigo.

 

[GyLocke]

You know, a Batman Vertigo book would make sense. Just look at Punisher and Punisher Max. Marvel U Punisher is having crazy, fun adventures with monsters and superheroes. And you have Punisher Max with only subtle hints of the supernatural, and it is officially the best thing ever.

That's the cool thing about comics.You can have a Batman that has a "Bat - Evil Space God Repellent Spray" and a Batman, who has to solve riddles wirtten on the back of skinned baby-hides in the same month.

 

[CrimsonMist]

You know, a Batman Vertigo book would make sense. Just look at Punisher and Punisher Max. Marvel U Punisher is having crazy, fun adventures with monsters and superheroes. And you have Punisher Max with only subtle hints of the supernatural, and it is officially the best thing ever.

That's the cool thing about comics.You can have a Batman that has a "Bat - Evil Space God Repellent Spray" and a Batman, who has to solve riddles wirtten on the back of skinned baby-hides in the same month.

So Batman: Broken City, Batman: City of Crime, Joker, Joker: Devil's Advocate, Batman: Night Cries, Batman Year One, Dark Knight Returns and a bunch of others? All published under the DC banner?


A Vertigo Batman title was a cool idea in my mind until I read that stuff. Now, why bother? You have plenty of Batman comics, under the DC banner, that push the envelope.

 

[Manic]

The only reason I could think of to put Batman in the Vertigo imprint would be for more naughty language. The level of violence in Batman's comics is fine as it is, and any particular story can temporarily remove itself from the rest of the DC Universe if the writer wishes. And quite frankly, I don't even notice the PG-rated language if the stories are good enough.

I could see this argument being more valid if the Batman seen in the Brave and the Bold animated series was the one we see all the time in the mainstream DCU, but he's not. The current Batman comics don't need to be any darker, and moving them to Vertigo would only serve to change the logo on the corner of each cover.

 

[obin_gam]

I thin my favorite part of this thread is the subtle condemnation with "Keep him together with Superman and his friends " and "Vertigo is his "real" home!"

He might as well have just said that all the cool kids vote Vertigo.

Spoiler

 

[GyLocke]

So Batman: Broken City, Batman: City of Crime, Joker, Joker: Devil's Advocate, Batman Year One, Dark Knight Returns and a bunch of others? All published under the DC banner?


A Vertigo Batman title was a cool idea in my mind until I read that stuff. Now, why bother? You have plenty of Batman comics, under the DC banner, that push the envelope.

I don't know. Batman really doesn't seem that important to me in a world where there is a Justice League. The Gotham crime situation doesn't make real sense in a world, where there is a Superman, and a hounder thousand million powered spandex heroes. (Then again, I like the Mortal man holds his own angle)

They can't have Joker and co convincingly pull something city - or world - threatening, cuz, well, where's Supes?

Even Dark Knight returns would work better for me without Superman. Miller had to make him part of the problem, to make the story work. (Not a character assassination, I like the story, but it came close.)

A Vertigo ongoing in a Nolanverse kind of world would be sweet. That would shut up all of us whining for a more grounded Batman, (I would draw the line at Bane. The guys beyond him - Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy should stay in the DCU.) and he could still pal around with the costume crowd and fight the Devil in the DCU.

I guess we're getting something like that in Earth One though.

 

[Manic]

What is it with some fans of Nolan's movies being ashamed of Batman's less gritty/grimdark elements? There's a bunch of people who hate villains like Mr. Freeze, have nothing but disdain for the Robins & Batgirls, and will throw a hissyfit if they see a drawing of Batman in a dark blue cape.

 

[Watchman]

 

[CrimsonMist]

I don't know. Batman really doesn't seem that important to me in a world where there is a Justice League. The Gotham crime situation doesn't make real sense in a world, where there is a Superman, and a hounder thousand million powered spandex heroes. (Then again, I like the Mortal man holds his own angle)

They can't have Joker and co convincingly pull something city - or world - threatening, cuz, well, where's Supes?

Even Dark Knight returns would work better for me without Superman. Miller had to make him part of the problem, to make the story work. (Not a character assassination, I like the story, but it came close.)

A Vertigo ongoing in a Nolanverse kind of world would be sweet. That would shut up all of us whining for a more grounded Batman, (I would draw the line at Bane. The guys beyond him - Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy should stay in the DCU.) and he could still pal around with the costume crowd and fight the Devil in the DCU.

I guess we're getting something like that in Earth One though.

Nothing in the DCU makes any sense at all. That's why they're comic books.

I would hate a book set in the Nolanverse. It isn't too exciting me, especially when you start discussing who can join and who can't. I want my Mr. Freeze stories, and you can do pretty heavy stories with him if you have the imagination. Same applies to the more fantastic characters that exist within the DCU. And again, we've gotten some really heavy Batman stories under the DC Banner, that i've listed. Night Cries is a powerful story about child abuse. Joker and Broken City are some really down and out grim crime stories.

I don't like this idea that Grim and Gritty = realism. It doesn't. That list of stories I gave, for the most part, are grim and gritty, and manages to incorporate, wonderfully, all of the colorful villains of Batman's universe.

Batman isn't Frank Castle. Nor should he be. And this is coming from HUGE PunisherMAX fan.

 

[CConn]

I prefer my Batman in a powder blue cape walking around in broad daylight saying hello to friendly black pimps.

...I'm not joking at all.

 

[GyLocke]

What is it with some fans of Nolan's movies being ashamed of Batman's less gritty/grimdark elements? There's a bunch of people who hate villains like Mr. Freeze, have nothing but disdain for the Robins & Batgirls, and will throw a hissyfit if they see a drawing of Batman in a dark blue cape.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't hate or feel ashamed for the goofy side of Batman. Just ordered the Brave and the Bold cartoon, and I'm entering my late twenties.

I just think a "realistic Batman" has a unique favour that I would like to see in comic form. I think there's a demand for both kind of bats.
Why hold into one with rabid enthusiasm?

(Especially, since there's such a good example of paralel comic lines with Punisher and Punisher max.)

I'm not really hurting for a Vertigo Batman book, but everybody just jumped on the poor thread starter, but I can see his point.

 

[GyLocke]

Nothing in the DCU makes any sense at all. That's why they're comic books.

I would hate a book set in the Nolanverse. It isn't too exciting me, especially when you start discussing who can join and who can't. I want my Mr. Freeze stories, and you can do pretty heavy stories with him if you have the imagination. Same applies to the more fantastic characters that exist within the DCU. And again, we've gotten some really heavy Batman stories under the DC Banner, that i've listed. Night Cries is a powerful story about child abuse. Joker and Broken City are some really down and out grim crime stories.

I don't like this idea that Grim and Gritty = realism. It doesn't. That list of stories I gave, for the most part, are grim and gritty, and manages to incorporate, wonderfully, all of the colorful villains of Batman's universe.

Batman isn't Frank Castle. Nor should he be. And this is coming from HUGE PunisherMAX fan.

But when did anybody say grim and gritty?
Some elements of the Batman myth are more realistic than others. It has nothing to do with how gritty they are. There are a lot of people who are annoyed by crime fighting boys, bat shaped airplanes and freeze guns.

Not because they are not dark enough, but because they take them out of the story of an almost believable protagonist. "Could almost happen" is one of the main reasons of his worldwide popularity opposed to say the Flash or Green Lantern.

DC could have it's cake and eat it too, make everyone happy. I just don't want comics to die out as a medium, and only long time comic fans find things like "The Batman of Zur-Ehn-Arrh" "Final Crisis" and "The Return of Bruce Wayne" awesome. I like them too. But it's not smart. The business strategy now is to fuse all books closer together, so we buy more titles, but they are relying more and more on a very small group of consumers. From a business standpoint, they should offer an alternative.

I know Bats is not the Punisher. But a "Batman MAX" could be even better, since we can show an uncorruptable hero stay uncorruptable when he is truly alone in the world and backup is not coming. A lone hero against the tide. Nobody wants him to go Goddamn.

 

[hippie_hunter]

So, wether you love or hate Morrisons run, you cant argue that he's not taking Batman of of his comfort zone and putting him where the character wasnt really meant to be in the first place... I am talking about the influences of making a pulp comic book with a Sherlock Holmes/Zorro-kind-a-guy.

Ummmm....yes you can argue about whether or not Grant Morrison is taking Batman out of his comfort zone. Throughout his history, Batman has done some wacky ****, way before Grant Morrison took over the direction of the character. The character has ranged from the absurd such as Adam West dancing the Batusi in ABC's Batman all the way to Christian Bale flat out incapacitating his foes in Christopher Nolan's the Dark Knight.

Honestly, I would say that you can't argue that Morrison is not doing anything new with the character. Between giving Batman a son in Batman, making Dick Grayson Batman in Batman & Robin, and now franchising Batman in Batman, Incorporated, Morrison is taking the character in a fresh new direction. Which has been needed IMO. I don't want Batman to be the same ol', same ol'. He needs to progress as a character, just like every character out there.

As a matter in fact, I like Morrison's take on Batman than the far more thuggish and crude Batman that popped up around Identity Crisis/Infinite Crisis.

It was only after WW2 that DC shifted the directions and went to a more fantastical super hero vibe. I dont remember from where but theres an interview which revealed that Batman wasn't even supposed to be in the same universe as Superman and the others. Hell, every DC character was there own before DC decided they wanted what Marvel had... a connected universe... aka. the stupidest idea DC ever had

Ummmmm.....yeah about that. What would become DC Comics was publishing crossovers between their characters before the United States even entered World War II.

World's Finest, which crossed over Batman, Superman, and Robin started in Spring of 1941. The United States entered World War II on December 8, 1941.

All-Star Comics #3, which was the first story that published the Justice Society of America (Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Dr. Fate, Hour-Man, the Spectre, and Sandman), in Winter of 1940. A whole year before the United States entered World War II.

Batman and Superman joined the Justice Society in All-Star Comics #8 which was published in October/November of 1941. You know, before the United States entered World War II.

That got me thinking... wouldnt Batman fit more well in the Vertigo universe? Sure you got supernatural elements there as well but compared to super-psycadelic-goody-too-shoes-flamboyant "DeeCeeUniverse" its grounded enough for a mentally ill rich dude who dresses up as a bat and beats people to a pulp with his bare hands...

There is no Vertigo Universe. Vertigo is just a mere publishing label used by DC to highlight more mature comics of lesser known DC characters (Hellblazer, Madam Xanadu, Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Sandman, etc.), mature content in general (Fables, American Vampire) and creator owned material (Scalped, Sweet Tooth, Seaguy, Y: The Last Man, etc.).

So lets make a comparison, which of the following places fits a character like Batman the best:

DCU: Everyone exists basically in the same place, a universe where color is power, thousands of super gods and übergods and whatnots exists, every hero have superpowers, Superman exists which in essence makes all other heroes useless, everyone likes everyone. Flying cars everything, timetravel...

or

Vertigo: Seperate "universe" for just about every character, If you want a connection with other famous characters, set Gotham City in the Hellblazer-universe, where demons appear albeit they are scary and not colorful and fantastical...

1. Batman is far too big of a character to put into the Vertigo label. He's currently DC's biggest character in terms of recognizability, merchandising, licensing, film, video games, comics, etc.

2. Right now, DC prefers to keep the DC Universe and Vertigo separate. DC owned characters used in the DC Universe banner (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, pretty much everyone) do not go into Vertigo territory and DC owned characters used in the Vertigo banner (Swamp Thing, Madam Xanadu, Unknown Soldier, John Constantine) do not go into DC Universe territory. This has prevented a Vertigo Batman series.

3. Asides from the long running Hellblazer series, DC just took away all DC characters from the Vertigo label. For the time being Batman is flat out prohibited from being used under the Vertigo label. This is for the better IMO because Vertigo works best publishing books that have nothing at all to do with DC like Fables, American Vampire, Scalped, etc.

4. Batman is far too integrated into the DC Universe to allow a switch of any kind. Taking Batman out of the DC Universe would create massive changes not just within the Batman books, but also in books such as the Justice League of America.

I know I know, its a tough sale to move character from one universe to another... oh wait its not. Punisher Max under Garth Ennis was the thing DC should have stolen and put Batman through, instead of that other idea of making one big friendly universe where everyone lives together.

And yet, Marvel has put the Punisher back into the Marvel Universe. And even then, Ennis' run was still a part of Marvel Universe continuity, Ennis just didn't have the Punisher interact with superheroes because Ennis hates superheroes for some wierd reason. It wasn't until Ennis left the Punisher, the book was retitled to The Punisher: Frank Castle and Marvel relaunched the Punisher into the Marvel Universe with Matt Fraction in Punisher: War Journal did the Punisher in Marvel's MAX label develop a completely separate continuity.

But what made separating the Punisher under Garth Ennis work was the simple fact that the Punisher really wasn't integrated into the Marvel Universe to begin with. Yeah, he teamed up and fought various Marvel characters. But he wasn't a part of the Avengers, X-Men, or any team for that matter. No one really considered him a friend.

Batman on the other hand is best friends with Superman and Wonder Woman. Has fully developed relationships with Green Lantern, Green Arrow, the Outsiders, and many other characters who live in the DC Universe. Batman is a founding member of the Justice League of America and the Outsiders and is tied to the Teen Titans through his mentorship of Robin. He is considered to be one of the leaders of the DC Universe's superhero community. Not only that but right from the get go with World's Finest and later on with The Brave and the Bold, Batman has been a part of team-up books specifically designed to team him up with other characters. Batman has far too much of a firm foothold in the DC Universe in order for this to work.

And also, yes I am aware of Earth One and am psyched about it. Not the same thing thogh as what I am talking about = a regular monthly Batman comic book release by Vertigo.

Here's some news for you. Batman: Earth One is going to be in the same universe as Superman: Earth One. The Earth One label is going to be a developed universe as Marvel's Ultimate Comics label.

Also, Batman is forbidden to appear in Vertigo.

And one more thing for you:

[YT]xb9VSIT8lY8[/YT]

 

[Frankenmation]

So, wether you love or hate Morrisons run, you cant argue that he's not taking Batman of of his comfort zone and putting him where the character wasnt really meant to be in the first place... I am talking about the influences of making a pulp comic book with a Sherlock Holmes/Zorro-kind-a-guy.
.

I hope you realise that the main reason why Batman was created in the first place was because DC (National Publications at the time) was requesting more superheroes after the success of Superman, and hence Bill Finger and Bob Kane created your beloved "Sherlock Holmes/Zorro-kind-a-guy"? He was a superhero from the very start. Hell, why do you think Batman's costume is similar in design to Superman's?

I suppose next you'll be telling us that Robin doesn't work in Batman's world or some crap.