Batman: Arkham Knight - Part 1

[zenith16]

The enemy placement and chatter is largely bland and rote. The biggest change I can think of comes when Black Mask's people change their masks. That's probably the closest to "alive" that the world ever feels. You've got wonderful bits in City like when the road is blown and all of a sudden gang members find themselves stranded in enemy territory and they report back into their bosses who both couldn't give a ****. The game is full of moments like that and Origins isn't.

In Origins you've got a horde of criminals just standing around in a blizzard for no good reason.

Wasnt there some ign video that talked about the villains not doing anything in a room til you as bat man show up and the room doesn't truly come a live until you make an entrance ? I'm pretty sure that's the case through out the series with most of the enemies .

 

[The Joker]

The cops are treated as just another gang. They are just milling about waiting for Batman to beat them up.

What do you expect them to be doing when they're patrolling the streets?

The first time you're illuminated by a chopper in City and it starts to follow you is a very cool moment, especially if you are fighting and you can hear them reporting it in over the radio.

What was so cool about it? They say they've seen you.....and that's it.

There's nothing like that in Origins, even remotely.

Good. It wasn't needed.

There's no finding a Scarecrow mask on top of a bridge (close to where his boat is docked) or seeing a building in the corner covered in vines.

Well of course not. This is not a city divided up into criminal kingdoms within a prison. That's why it feels more like a real city.

The enemy placement and chatter is largely bland and rote. The biggest change is when Black Mask's change their masks.

The enemy chatter is the same, only less deceiving. We don't hear any henchmen promising a big return by any of the villains, like in Two Face's case, only for it to be a massive disappointment.

You've got wonderful bits in City like when the bridge is blown and all of a sudden gang members find themselves stranded in enemy territory.

You've got wonderful bits in AO like when Firefly makes mince meat out of the bridge.

Incidentally your aforementioned small bridge in Amusement Mile being blown is the only significant structural change in AC's environment. Even more so than anything Strange's missiles did in the big Protocol 10 'climax' lol.

In Origins you've got a horde of criminals just standing around in a blizzard for no good reason.

Wrong. In the case of areas like The Final Offer, the GCR towers, and Industrial District they're protecting enemy base. In the other scenarios it's the criminals cashing in on Black Mask's bounty on Batman.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

What do you expect them to be doing when they're patrolling the streets?

For a game about Batman being hunted, maybe they should have been out hunting you rather than just standing on an empty barren street in the middle of a blizzard.

What was so cool about it? They say they've seen you.....and that's it.

Its more dynamic than anything in Origins.

Good. It wasn't needed.

I guess? Again for a game about Batman being hunted, the world is almost totally static and I think that's a reason why the "world feels dead" is such a common complaint.

Well of course not. This is not a city divided up into criminal kingdoms within a prison. That's why it feels more like a real city.

Except it doesn't. Again the only people standing out on the street are apparently all evil killers. Didn't feel remotely real. I mean heck, even City had some non-combatants in it.

Also City wasn't attempting to replicate a real city, it was going for an Escape from New York style prison, which it did far better than Origins attempted to replicate a snowed in Gotham. Apparently Gotham's criminal factions are not impeded by the snow?

The enemy chatter is the same, only less deceiving. We don't hear any henchmen promising a big return by any of the villains, like in Two Face's case, only for it to be a massive disappointment.

I disagree, the chatter feels much more static in Origins.

As for the bolded, I'm not laying down a blanket defense of City here so I don't really know where that's coming from.

You've got wonderful bits in AO like when Firefly makes mince meat out of the bridge.

Incidentally your aforementioned bridge being blown is the only significant structural change in AC's environment. Even more so than anything Strange.s missiles did in Protocol 10 lol.

You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not talking about the structural damage, I'm saying the denizens of the city react to the road being collapsed in City. You see several groups of enemies now stranded on the wrong side of it as a result, reacting to it differently.

That's an attention to detail that Origins doesn't show very often.

Wrong. In the case of areas like The Final Offer, the GCR towers, and Industrial District they're protecting enemy base. In the other scenarios it's the criminals cashing in on Black Mask's bounty on Batman.

Have you ever tried to move in a blizzard? The notion that it's so bad that it CLOSED down the entire city yet the gangs are able to move through it effectively enough to hunt Batman is completely ridiculous and incredibly game-y.

 

[zenith16]

your right on the blizzard part for sure it's not easy to move around in at all. but the snow barely rose in game.

 

[Shikamaru]

AO's setting was the least alive of the three games IMO. It didn't have anywhere the same level of attention to detail that Rocksteady did. It is probably my biggest problem with the game in general. It wasn't as noticeable in Old Gotham due to them using the same map from AC, but it gets really noticeable in New Gotham.

 

[DeadPresident]

Spideyfan, you're reaching with the majority of those replies. Let's leave it at differing opinions.

 

[The Joker]

For a game about Batman being hunted, maybe they should have been out hunting you rather than just standing on an empty barren street in the middle of a blizzard.

Who says all the Cops were out hunting for Batman?

Its more dynamic than anything in Origins.

Don't talk hyperbole. It was a bit of radio static about a patrol chopper seeing Batman.

I guess? Again for a game about Batman being hunted, the world is almost totally static and I think that's a reason why the "world feels dead" is such a common complaint.

Two things;

1. It's not a common complaint. Don't confuse a loud vocal minority here as a common complaint.

2. Arkham City is the game that is guilty of not being about it's setting and premise since the main story of AC, chasing the cure, has nothing to do with the prison itself, or the gang rivalries, or anything associated with AC itself. You could have had that chase the cure plot in regular Gotham.

Except it doesn't. Again the only people standing out on the street are apparently all evil killers. Didn't feel remotely real. I mean heck, even City had some non-combatants in it.

Except it does. And AO had non combatants in it, too.

I disagree, the chatter feels much more static in Origins.

You say potato...

The thug chatter was the same.

As for the bolded, I'm not laying down a blanket defense of City here so I don't really know where that's coming from.

It was an observation of how the thug chatter fell flat when it doesn't even deliver on what they're saying. Which makes it worse.

Your misunderstanding my point. I'm not talking about the structural damage, I'm saying the denizens of the city react to the road being collapsed in City. You see several groups of enemies now stranded on the wrong side of it as a result.

I get your point, and you get the same reaction to Firefly's attack on the bridge, too. They make a whole big issue out of it.

But having a few thugs complain that a bridge got blown doesn't make it feel any more populated than in AO.

Have you ever tried to move in a blizzard? The notion that it's so bad that it CLOSED down the entire city yet the gangs are able to move through it effectively enough to hunt Batman is completely ridiculous and incredibly game-y.

Really you're going to try and apply realism of moving through a snow storm in a Batman game?

You must have been up in arms when a dozen choppers were firing rockets everywhere in Protocol 10, and not one single building was knocked down during the whole thing.

Now that is completely ridiculous and gamey.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spideyfan, you're reaching with the majority of those replies. Let's leave it at differing opinions.

If 'reaching' is disagreeing with you, then sure. This isn't Upset Spidey on his crazy mountain rambling all on his own, there are plenty of people that feel that way about Origin's open world.

I'm not expecting to change Joker's opinion or yours on that matter so I am fine with debating the point without some anticipation of one of us saying something that blows the other person's argument away and declaring total victory.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Who says all the Cops were out hunting for Batman?

There is constant chatter from the cops about how they are joining in on the hunt to collect the bounty. And again, even if that wasn't the case, the cops wouldn't be patrolling during a blizzard by standing outside of it.

They are a gang wearing a different skin, they never feel like the cops, even corrupt cops. Stuff like that adds to the feeling of "deadness" in the world.

Don't talk hyperbole. It was a bit of radio static about a patrol chopper seeing Batman.

That little tiny thing is more dynamic than anything in Origins.

Two things;

1. It's not a common complaint. Don't confuse a loud vocal minority here as a common complaint.

The game reviewed lower both with critics and users, and this was often a common complaint.

And I really LIKE Origins, and even I'm not ignoring that the open world was a rather blatant issue.

I'm going to pass over your #2 because you seem to think I am championing every element of City here. I am not. Neither game uses their setting as well as they could have, Batman certainly does not feel hunted in Origins despite that being the whole conceit of the game.

But regardless City's setting is better constructed, thought out and realized.

Except it does. And AO had non combatants in it, too.

Who are we talking about? NPC's like Gordon?

Because I'm referring to the political prisoners, who even had a little refugee camp. There is a small 'civilian' population in City and that takes place in a prison!

It was an observation of how the thug chatter fell flat when it doesn't even deliver on what they're saying. Which makes it worse.

To your original point, that's subjective so I'll pass on this to avoid debating in circles.

I get your point, and you get the same reaction to Firefly's attack on the bridge, too. They make a whole big issue out of it.

But having a few thugs complain that a bridge got blown doesn't make it feel any more populated than in AO.

I think members of the gangs getting stranded on either side certainly makes it feel more alive.

Really you're going to try and apply realism of moving through a snow storm to a Batman game?

Except you just held up Origins' city up as being more "real".

Well of course not. This is not a city divided up into criminal kingdoms within a prison. That's why it feels more like a real city.

I'm not saying the game should be a snow traversal simulator. But when their excuse for why there is no civilians in Gotham City is that there is a HUGE snow storm that has closed down the city and then we've got legions of gang members milling about (not even in winter gear) its only going to add to that feeling of video game-ness that pervades Origins' open world.

You must have been up in arms when a dozen choppers were firing rockets everywhere in Protocol 10, and not one single building was knocked down during the whole thing.

No I wasn't. Just like how I wasn't up in arms that Firefly's attack didn't collapse the bridge despite the middle apparently having melted.

It is a game, there are all sorts of conceits we accept in the name of that like Batman never eating or drinking despite being at work for several hours.

The issue here is that while City constructed a scenario (Batman in a open world city environment populated by criminals) and then created a world based around that scenario - Origins took the same idea and created something that feels much more rote and bland. The desolated barren snowed in Gotham of Origins is not as interesting as a part of Gotham turned into a lawless, Orwellian prison that Rocksteady created. Part of that is due to concept certainly, but another part of it is due to amount of time and effort put in.

We know that the Montreal team likely didn't have the same dev time as Rocksteady and it shows.

 

[Broseph44]

So did batman just left his old batmobile in the river after the Bane fight? With his OCD I have a hard time believing he would.

You mean leave behind, not left behind. And no I'm sure he didn't just leave it behind. I'm sure he got it at some point and between Asylum and Knight he's completely upgraded it. He's made it into the Batmobile that we see now in the Knight previews.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Batman upgrading his vehicles has always been a thing.

The old one is probably collecting dust in some forgotten corner of the Batcave. Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to what the Batcave will look like in Akrham Knight. Should be interesting to get to hang out in there.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

The more I've seen of the new vehicle the more I like it.

 

[Broseph44]

I love the new Batmobile. And agreed excited to see the batcave in this game. Would be pretty cool to actually be able to walk around Wayne Manor as Bruce and then make our way into the cave. Wishful thinking haha. With cool Easter eggs around the house/cave.

 

[zenith16]

Batman upgrading his vehicles has always been a thing.

The old one is probably collecting dust in some forgotten corner of the Batcave. Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to what the Batcave will look like in Akrham Knight. Should be interesting to get to hang out in there.

Not only that, it's been in various mediums that he has more the one batmobile at the ready built and that he has a special clean up crew for his vehicles as well. Now his weapons like a Bater rang? they're a lot harder to find and keep a stray person like Barbra from taking and keeping it.

 

[The Joker]

There is constant chatter from the cops about how they are joining in on the hunt to collect the bounty.

No, there's not. Only Branden and his corrupt squad are the ones who say they're going to cash in on that.

And again, even if that wasn't the case, the cops wouldn't be patrolling during a blizzard by standing outside of it.

Of course they would. You're talking like the blizzard was so bad that you couldn't see the hand in front of your face.

They are a gang wearing a different skin, they never feel like the cops. Stuff like that adds to the feeling of "deadness" in the world.

No, it adds life to the world by having Police patrolling the city, and not just the criminals. In a real live city you would have Police presence in a situation like that. It adds more life than just choppers in the air, with no human interaction, and a bit of radio static.

That little tiny thing is more dynamic than anything in Origins.

I simply cannot take that opinion seriously. That's hyperbole of the most extreme.

The game reviewed lower both with critics and users, and this was often a common complaint.

No, it's not. The game world was well received for its number and variety of side missions and distractions. The only noticeable complaint is its scale was criticized by some as unnecessarily large.

Who are we talking about? NPC's like Gordon?

Because I'm referring to the political prisoners, who even had a little refugee camp. There is a small 'civilian' population in City and that takes place in a prison!

I'm talking about civilians you save in some of the random crimes that break out over the Police scanners that you go to deal with.

I think members of the gangs getting stranded on either side certainly makes it feel more alive.

Why? It doesn't increase or decrease the populace of the city.

Except you just held up Origins' city up as being more "real".

In comparison to the city in AC, yes. AC's city is a walled off prison divided up into little villain camps. That doesn't feel like a real city. AO's was a big open world city. It felt more real, and just as populated as AC's.

I loved the city of AC, love it to bits. But compared to AO's, it doesn't feel as real.

I'm not saying the game should be a snow traversal simulator. But when their excuse for why there is no civilians in Gotham City is that there is a HUGE snow storm that has closed down the city and then we've got legions of gang members milling about (not even in winter gear) its only going to add to that feeling of video game-ness that pervades Origins' open world.

I know what you're saying, and it's more hyperbole. For a start the city was not shut down. They just advised citizens to stay off the streets during the severe weather conditions.

It's not so bad that you can't set foot outside in it..

No I wasn't. Just like how I wasn't up in arms that Firefly's attack didn't collapse the bridge despite the middle apparently having melted.

Well that's good because the middle of the bridge did not melt. Even if it had, why would that make the entire bridge collapse when it's still supported everywhere else?

It is a game, there are all sorts of conceits we accept in the name of that like Batman never eating or drinking despite being at work for several hours.

Right. So your hang up over criminals and Cops being out during a snow storm is really pedantic in hindsight, IMO.

The issue here is that while City constructed a scenario and then created a world based around that scenario - Origins took the same idea and created something that feels much more rote and bland. The desolated barren snowed in Gotham of Origins is not as interesting as a part of Gotham turned into a lawless, Orwellian prison that Rocksteady created. Part of that is due to concept certainly, but another part of it is due to amount of time and effort put in.

Except AO didn't create something that is more rote and bland. It took a great interesting concept, and used it effectively as part of the game story.

Whereas in Arkham City, it took a great interesting concept, and never used it effectively in it's story. The gang rivalries, the prison itself, none of it is featured as an important component in the main story. The premise of AC is Batman finding a cure to being poisoned. It just happens that he has to go looking for it from people who are inside this walled off prison. It could have been done in regular Gotham, too.

 

[zenith16]

well after this I'm staying out of this but joker you forgot about the homeless that some of the corrupt half police force are shown beating up in AO in their own station where they work, that you save also as Batman. Ok I'm staying out of this from now on. Cause it's become old.

 

[The Joker]

well after this I'm staying out of this but joker you forgot about the homeless that some of the corrupt half police force are shown beating up in AO that you save also as Batman. Ok I'm staying out of this from now on. Cause it's become old.

Oh yeah, the homeless. Those too. Thanks.

 

[Broseph44]

well after this I'm staying out of this but joker you forgot about the homeless that some of the corrupt half police force are shown beating up in AO in their own station where they work, that you save also as Batman. Ok I'm staying out of this from now on. Cause it's become old.

Yeah I'm avoiding their debate haha. And sick of the origins hate always popping up.

 

[TheFirstAvenger]

So... Arkham Knight sounds good.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Of course they would. You're talking like the blizzard was so bad that you couldn't see the hand in front of your face.

According to the story the blizzard was bad enough that it closed the entire city, an entire urban center. That is the whole conceit for nobody being on the street. That is one of my major issues with the world, we are told the blizzard is this horrible storm that shut everything down but it looks relatively mild honestly.

The real reason of course is that they weren't able or didn't want to put civilians on the streets (a reason I've been against Gotham city open world games for a while now).

No, it adds life to the world by having Police patrolling the city, and not just the criminals. In a real live city you would have Police presence in a situation like that. It adds more life than just choppers in the air, with no human interaction, and a bit of radio static.

But they are not patrolling, they are just standing there, on a street in the middle of a snow storm with nobody on it.

Again in a game based around Batman being HUNTED, it would have been nice if anyone actually ever did any hunting. It would have certainly made for a more dynamic open world.

I'm talking about civilians you save in some of the random crimes that break out over the Police scanners that you go to deal with.

Weren't those brawls? I don't remember civilians there, but its very possible my memory just is failing me here.

Why? It doesn't increase or decrease the populace of the city.

I'm not really talking about "populated". I think City and Origins are definitely cases of less is more. City is better detailed and realized than Origins is, despite (and because of) being half the size.

In comparison to the city in AC, yes. AC's city is a walled off prison divided up into little villain camps. That doesn't feel like a real city. AO's was a big open world city. It felt more real, and just as populated as AC's.

Because City is not portraying a city, it is portraying a prison Escape from New York style and it does a better job of that than Origins' trying to portray a real city during a Blizzard. Hence my complaints about all the gangs roaming about.

I loved the city of AC, love it to bits. But compared to AO's, it doesn't feel as real.

Origins is a ghost town, except for the legions of gangs that are not bothered by the snow. Not "real" in the slightest.

And honestly I didn't want the Gotham in Origins to be real either, I would much rather it have character and a sense of activity about it. That's just not the case.

I know what you're saying, and it's more hyperbole. For a start the city was not shut down. They just advised citizens to stay off the streets during the severe weather conditions.

It's not so bad that you can't set foot outside in it..

But that was the whole excuse for no civilians being on the street. And the snowfall wasn't even that bad. These kind of dissonances is why people had problems with the game.



Well that's good because the middle of the bridge did not melt. Even if it had, why would that make the entire bridge collapse when it's still supported everywhere else?

Right. So your hang up over criminals and Cops being out during a snow storm is really pedantic in hindsight, IMO.

Except the lack of a well executed open world hurt my enjoyment of the game. This was the first time in an Arkham game I didn't enjoy getting from point a to point b, so I'm not arguing the point for its sake - I'm arguing the point because it was a real issue.

And it was.

No, it's not. The game world was well received for its number and variety of side missions and distractions. The only noticeable complaint is its scale was criticized by some as unnecessarily large.

IGN:

Out in the expanded and snow-covered open world, I found Gotham City beautiful but lifeless. In Arkham City, the excuse is that this part of town has been walled off and given to the criminals. Without that (admittedly far-fetched) scenario, the absence of any hint of civilian life makes Gotham feel eerily barren, especially next to Origins’ open-world peers and their populated streets. It may be the middle of the night on Christmas Eve, but streets teeming with nothing but decidedly un-jolly criminals are still weird.

Joystiq:

As before, Batman's cape and grapnel hook combine to form one of the more exciting methods of traversal in open-world games, slinging you over buildings and leaving you to swoop onto the heads of unsuspecting ne'er-do-wells. The wintery storm that keeps all of Gotham's citizens inside is a feeble excuse, especially when a better one stares you in the face from beginning to end: the city is absurdly flooded with crime, and even the cops exist only as Batman's punching-bags-to-be.

PC Gamer:

The setting this time is a snowbound Gotham City, long before Hugo Strange’s prison makeover. There are familiar landmarks from Arkham City – the Sionis steel mill and the Wonder Tower are immediately recognisable – but the layout has changed quite a bit. The addition of a southern island, linked by an enemy-patrolled bridge that’s a chore to cross, makes the city noticeably bigger than before, but it’s not as visually interesting or fun to navigate. There are too many dead ends that break your flow as you’re gliding, and the new island is a grey, uninspiring industrial sprawl.

Edge:

The new south island, for example, is a lifeless, boring space.

Gamespot:

The most noteworthy difference between Arkham Origins and its predecessors is a significantly larger open world. But that larger world has little meaning when the things you're doing in it are the same things the smaller world of the previous game accommodated perfectly well.

 

[Shikamaru]

Yeah I'm avoiding their debate haha. And sick of the origins hate always popping up.

That's actually why I unsubscribed from this thread. There is way too much complaining boiling on. It's either people complaining about Rocksteady not doing more Batman/superhero games, or people complaining about other people complaining about Rocksteady not doing more Batman/superhero games, or people complaining about (any) previous Arkham game, or people complaining about other people complaining about (any) previous Arkham game, etc. I found my hype for this game dying down just from being here.

 

[jonathancrane]

Considering that this is the year for Arkham-DLC, a film, and Rocksteady's last Batman game-one would think the atmosphere on this thread would be celebratory.

 

[Broseph44]

Considering that this is the year for Arkham-DLC, a film, and Rocksteady's last Batman game-one would think the atmosphere on this thread would be celebratory.

One would think, but people on the hype can always turn awesomeness into arguing, hate, depression and suck the soul right out of you hahaha.

 

[TheFirstAvenger]

Haters gonna hate.

 

[Hush]

Holy ****, I came to read about the game and instead sifted through like two pages of a stupid debate. I get the game was divisive but going backin forth like this in a thread for a new game is just plain dumb, take it to PM's.