Batman Begins Batman doesn't use guns because Rachel slaps him?

[blind_fury]

Shouldn't it be because because his parents were killed by a gun?

 

[lujho]

Yes. It should.

I hate what they did with this part of the story and Chill (catching Chill the night of the murder etc).

Basically, the only reason Bruce doesn't commit murder is that someone else happens to beat him to it.

 

[BatMatt]

I think the reason goes deeper than that, Rachel just slapped some sense back into him

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Funny, I always saw the scene as Rachael gets him to realize that he was no better than Chill was for even considering it. Which is symbolized in the scene where he sees the gun and throws it into the river in disgust.

Probably one of the best scenes in the film; one of the few that I like.

But yes, I agree that it should have never been a question. If you're going to go the modern route and have Batman hate guns, then he shouldn't fall far enough that he gets that messed up. Bruce was never so disallusioned in the comic books. If anything, he had a clear, singular focus ever since his parents hit the ground.

Dammit, I just realized something I like about BB even less. Making Batman a beginner is all well and fine, but Nolan made him TOO much of a amatuer. Slipping up on his first night in the suit is fine, it was in YO. But wandering the world, adrift like some kind of scatterbrained fool? That's something I'd only expect to see Keaton's Wayne do, if at all! Bruce didn't plan on Batman from the get-go, but he travelled the world and trained with several instructors (not just one source; Ra's), quite sure in what he was doing. Determined and focused.

Man, Nolan just messed up on so many tiny levels, so many that it all adds up to one big screw-up as a whole.

 

[zer00]

So I guess you guys missed the scene with Bruce holding the gun and the flashing scenes of Chill's gun, and then Bruce throwing it into the river?

oh yeah it's convenient to forget to ***** for no reason

 

[blind_fury]

Bruce was never so disallusioned in the comic books. If anything, he had a clear, singular focus ever since his parents hit the ground.

Exactly!!!

I was begining to fear everyone on the Bat forums had been blinded by Nolan's popularity. It was like invasion of the body snatchers.

Nolan missed a prime opportunity to show just what it takes to become the worlds greatest detective/crimefighter. People have no idea how deep Bruce's knowledge and commitment goes.

Dammit, I just realized something I like about BB even less. Making Batman a beginner is all well and fine, but Nolan made him TOO much of a amatuer. Slipping up on his first night in the suit is fine, it was in YO. But wandering the world, adrift like some kind of scatterbrained fool? That's something I'd only expect to see Keaton's Wayne do, if at all! Bruce didn't plan on Batman from the get-go, but he travelled the world and trained with several instructors (not just one source; Ra's), quite sure in what he was doing. Determined and focused.

Man, Nolan just messed up on so many tiny levels, so many that it all adds up to one big screw-up as a whole.

Replace Bruce's time with Ras with flashbacks to his training in escape artistry(14 years old), lock picking(10 years old), forensics(19 years old), military tactics/counter-terrorism(19 years old), ninjitsu(19 years old), jujitsu(14 years old), advanced psychology(14 years old), etc etc. People will understand why this guy is so good at fighting crime. He had dozens of genius mentors and he trained his ass off since he was 9. It will be explained why this guy reaches legendary status.

Save Ras for the end of the trilogy when Batman is worthy of such an adversary and Ras can refer to him as "detective".

I don't understand the hype surrounding Batman Begins. Bruce is a moron compared to Year One or The Animated Series. He doesn't even seem like he was the potential to become the world greatest detective. He needs a girl to realize that he shouldn't use guns and he needs Ras for most of his Batman skills.

 

[blind_fury]

So I guess you guys missed the scene with Bruce holding the gun and the flashing scenes of Chill's gun, and then Bruce throwing it into the river?

oh yeah it's convenient to forget to ***** for no reason

Why did Bruce Wayne train in gunless combat his whole life?

Oh that's right because he knew he hated guns from the moment his parents were murdered and understood he had to find ways to fight crime without killing.

Nolan just made Bruce Wayne a lost fool who traveled the world because he was confused. Dude that's not Batman!

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Nolan missed a prime opportunity to show just what it takes to become the worlds greatest detective/crimefighter. People have no idea how deep Bruce's knowledge and commitment goes.

Replace Bruce's time with Ras with flashbacks to his training in escape artistry(14 years old), lock picking(10 years old), forensics(19 years old), military tactics/counter-terrorism(19 years old), ninjitsu(19 years old), jujitsu(14 years old), advanced psychology(14 years old), etc etc. People will understand why this guy is so good at fighting crime. He had dozens of genius mentors and he trained his ass off since he was 9. It will be explained why this guy reaches legendary status.

Save Ras for the end of the trilogy when Batman is worthy of such an adversary and Ras can refer to him as "detective".

Exactly. THAT's how you make a Batman movie. I guess deep down, Nolan thought that maybe that wouldn't be realistic? That seems to be his driving force behind what he does. I guess he didn't think it would be realistic to the audience if the lead character was so determined and so dedicated? I don't blame him if so, since nobody in the world is even close to that anymore.

Ra's is technically Batman's greatest foe. The Joker's up there, yes, but he gets tied up in his own insanity enough to hinder any Earth-shattering success like actually defeating Batman or destroying the world (even though his interests don't lie in such, it was only an example).

I don't understand the hype surrounding Batman Begins. Bruce is a moron compared to Year One or The Animated Series. He doesn't even seem like he was the potential to become the world greatest detective. He needs a girl to realize that he shouldn't use guns and he needs Ras for most of his Batman skills.

I'll tell you what it is, and I expect to be bombarded with hate mail for this, but this is how I honestly feel about the Batman fandom. Everybody likes Batman Begins because it's all out there. Laid out, no room for interpretation, easy to understand.... it's simplistic and superficial, which most people are these days. If you look at a great deal of the major, major BB fanatics, they really seem to be immature. And nerdy people tend to be immature. Like the people who say that the Joker must be R-rated to be done right... that speaks of immaturity, that to be mature, something must be over-the-top adult. The Joker doesn't need to be Freddy Kruger to be done right.

People like Batman Begins because it helped them believe in Batman. Nobody has any suspension of disbelief anymore, and no imagination, it seems. When the fanbase can shun a highly intelligent and interpretive spin like what Burton gave us, in the face of Batman painting his suit black and beating us over the head with a theme of fear, that's when you know that a staggering level of the Batman fanbase lacks any kind of sufficient depth to them. A lot of the people who bash the Burton films gives reasons that are indicative of, to me, a lack of comprehension skills. Just because we didn't see Bruce perchase the Batmobile, we can't believe in it. And then, an even greater majority just bashes it for the sake of bashing, which is also a sign of immaturity.

Batman Begins is all well and fine, but excuse me if I want a Batman movie to engage me more on a psychological level, and I mean really engage me, not just present me with emotion and thematic elements and just expect me to appreciate them. Burton's films have been described as particularly "art house," and that couldn't be a better term. Burton was perhaps the best guy for the material, because he kept the material's mythic qualities and really played with it on a subtextual level. Nothing of which is in Batman Begins to parallel anything Burton did. And because most people can't pick up on the subtextual elements from Burton's material, they denounce it. If it doesn't slap them in the face with information, they cannot pick up on any of it. It's the same reasons why films like The Hulk and Superman Returns were disliked. They, along with Burton's Batman films, were too mature for a vast audience.

On another level, the faction of fans that are just content for Nolan to further alter the source material aren't fans. If you can't believe in Clayface on film, if you think the Joker has to carve in his smile, or put makeup on himself.... have no business calling themselves fans of the material. You suspend your disbelief when you crack open a Batman comic book, so you should do the same when you buy that ticket. The films are supposed to adapt the material, not heavily alter it and only resemble the source in name only. Just because Michael Keaton was a few inches shorter than Batman should be, and Jack Naiper killed his parents, they forgo everything else Burton did, ignore the wonderful adaptation of the material. I can't argue with those who dislike Burton's Penguin, among other things, because they're valid points, but if you're going to alter the material, at least make it a worthy alteration, as Nolan failed to do.

Unfortunately, I cannot discuss what I dislike about Batman Begins without praising Burton's material. This gives the appearance of a blinding bias, I know, but it all ends up as a comparison anyhow. Probably goes over the heads of most people as well. You never see me going into a Pro-Bale thread and breaking it up to sing the praises of Burton/Keaton. It never happens. Whereas, the Nolanites do this frequently on the other side. And there's that fact again; the immaturity. I'm content for people to enjoy BB. But B89? Anybody who likes that needs to be set straight, and I'm right, you're wrong. Keaton was short, so everything's invalidated, etc... whereas the Burtonites never do any such thing. In essence, with rare exceptions, if you "get" Burton's films, you're probably an adult. If you don't, chances are you have no depth whatsoever.

Let the hate notes roll in.

 

[blind_fury]

I think you can do a realistic version of Batman without distorting the character. Frank Miller did it with Year One.

Imagine a page for page adaptation of Year One directed by David Fincher (Se7en, Fight Club).

 

[DocLathropBrown]

I think you can do a realistic version of Batman without distorting the character. Frank Miller did it with Year One.

Imagine a page for page adaptation of Year One directed by David Fincher (Se7en, Fight Club).

What people don't get is that you have to twist our reality to fit Batman's, not the other way around. Burton did it. Richard Donner did it for the first Superman.

Bryan Singer twisted the X-Men to fit us. He failed. Nolan makes Batman fit our world, the average man's sensibilities, which it isn't in the comics.

 

[blind_fury]

You don't think Year One was a decent realistic take on Batman?

But yeah I totally support surrealsim in comic book movies. Donner's Superman is my favorite movie of all time.

 

[Streeter1981]

I hate Rachel. And that's that.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

You don't think Year One was a decent realistic take on Batman?

No no, "Year One" was incredible. And for as much as I dislike Begins, I liked little bits of it. The "Backup" bit taken from "Year One" was spectacular. Just glorious.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

He doesn't use guns b/c of his parents death. EVEN IN BATMAN BEGINS.

Am I the only one who remembers him being at the docks staring into the horizon and remembering when his parents were killed....and how his mind's eye focused on the gun.....and then he tossed it.

****....maybe I'm just crazy and made that whole little scene up.

Yeah, yeah.....Rachel convinced Bruce to never use a gun simply by slapping him......

 

[HalloweenRes]

While I understand that Batman Begins was NOT perfect, I got to say I was really surprised to see so many people on here complaining about the film. I know, everyone is intitled to their opinion, but I have to say, Batman Begins was the movie I was waiting for.

According to DocLathropBrown's post, people who like Batman Begins are immature.. Immature??? I fail to see how anyone who likes the film could be immature, because the film is NOT that bad. Everyone loves Tim Burton's interpretations (as do I), but no one is going to be totally happy about the film. I just fail to see how someone could be deemed immature for likeing it. I'm 24, and I love the film; I thought it was better than Tim Burton's first Batman. While I love Tim Burton's movies (especially his Batman movies) he didn't stick close to the source material AT ALL. I know, I know, we have been over this a thousand times, but I have to say it. The JOKER should NOT be the central character in BATMAN'S first major motion picture appearance; NOR should the JOKER have been the killer of Bruce Wayne's PARENTS.. I think people's problems with the film stem from the fact that it takes SO LONG for Batman to come onto the screen; while I know no one would admit to that, I am betting that is part of the problem. And yes, I know people want a more Psychological Batman; in my opinion, we GOT that TOO.. Yes, Tim Burton's film was more Psychological baised (on a different level; the tourtured Bruce Wayne), but Batman Begins did have Psychological elements. Bruce DOES have the need to want to KILL in this movie (when Bob Kane originally created Batman, he DID KILL), but he ultimately chooses to fight for justice.
To me, Burton's movies are excellent movies. Batman Returns, at least to me, was not as much of a "Batman" film, as it was a fun Tim Burton film, but as someone said in a post on Jett's Batman on Film website (giving credit where it is due), the characters of Max Shreck, The Penguin, and the Catwomen are all personas that Batman could have EASILY turned towards. You have the crim boss (Max) who is trying to suck Gotham's power for his own personal gain, you have the Penquin, a freak that is shunned by society (which Bruce Wayne could have easily been seen as) and Catwomen, a vigilanty who does what she has to do to get what she wants (something that Bruce Wayne/Batman can easily become). However, in Batman Begins, the focus is on BATMAN himself, and that was the point of making this movie. There are some small gilmpses from the comics (examples: as mentioned, when Batman calls the bats using the eco location device he devised, as well as when the bats swarm around the Gotham City Police Force, and the scene were Bruce hears the bat flying around his study).

It is safe to say that everyone has the right to their opinion on the movie; I guess I was just surprised that there was this much dis-like for the film. I just got so use to people on these boards praising the film, and yes, I am biased when it comes to Nolan's film. I found it refreshing and a much needed revival to a franchise that went down in flames (thanks Schumacher!!!) However, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect that.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

According to DocLathropBrown's post, people who like Batman Begins are immature.

I didn't say everybody... but a great majority, yeah. Just going by my personal analysis of the fandom.

Everyone loves Tim Burton's interpretations

I dunno what fanbase you've been a part of. A great deal of people (particularly Nolanites) would kick Tim Burton in the balls, given the chance.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Yeah, yeah.....Rachel convinced Bruce to never use a gun simply by slapping him......

But you cannot deny that he didn't think of how much he hated guns UNTIL Rachael slapped him. Bruce from the books NEVER got that far off course.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno Doc.....saying that a great majority of Batman Begins fans are immature is kinda like saying a great majority of Batman Return fans are emo goths who wear black mascara and dress only in black while wearing black lipstick.

Kinda an ignorant thng to say.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

But you cannot deny that he didn't think of how much he hated guns UNTIL Rachael slapped him. Bruce from the books NEVER got that far off course.

That's b/c he was thinking of vengenace. Can you think of another way for him to quickly kill the man who slaughtered his parents without any training whatsoever?

Bottomline is......he doesn't use guns b/c of what happened to his parents. And not b/c Rachel has some kind of Jesus Christ cure slap that allows one to "see the light". The scene after Rachel drops him off is key for that reason.

And, your wrong.....YES, he has gotten THAT far before in the comics.

Hell, Batman went that just a year ago. And that was Veteran Batman....not a young, lost teenager version.

 

[HalloweenRes]

I dunno what fanbase you've been a part of. A great deal of people (particularly Nolanites) would kick Tim Burton in the balls, given the chance.

Ok, maybe not EVERYONE likes Tim Burton's interpretations, but a lot of people do. I have read a lot of POSITIVE posts about Tim Burton's films on these boards.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

That's b/c REAL Batman fans know they owe Tim Burton a helluva lot.

But, when people refuse to given anyone else a chance....and don't give attention to detail to something like Batman Begins, it kinda pisses other people off.....creating some kind of weird inner Batman war.

No other fanbase has this. This inner-bia between they're OWN fanbase. It's funny stuff.

 

[blind_fury]

That's b/c he was thinking of vengenace. Can you think of another way for him to quickly kill the man who slaughtered his parents without any training whatsoever?

Bottomline is......he doesn't use guns b/c of what happened to his parents. And not b/c Rachel has some kind of Jesus Christ cure slap that allows one to "see the light". The scene after Rachel drops him off is key for that reason.

And, your wrong.....YES, he has gotten THAT far before in the comics.

Hell, Batman went that just a year ago. And that was Veteran Batman....not a young, lost teenager version.

I'll respond to this with an earlier reply:

Why did Bruce Wayne train in gunless combat his whole life?

Oh that's right because he knew he hated guns from the moment his parents were murdered and understood he had to find ways to fight crime without killing.

Nolan just made Bruce Wayne a lost fool who traveled the world because he was confused. Dude that's not Batman!

 

[DocLathropBrown]

I dunno Doc.....saying that a great majority of Batman Begins fans are immature is kinda like saying a great majority of Batman Return fans are emo goths who wear black mascara and dress only in black while wearing black lipstick.

Kinda an ignorant thng to say.

Igonorant? Well, that may be, but I didn't attempt to pass off what I said as anything but my personal observations about the fanbase. Take a look at the great majority of people praising BB. Not seasoned posters, but a great deal of them have poor sentence structure, grammer, and spelling. Something common among kids or people who just don't give a damn. And that's just part of my observations. I'm not saying that people are immature BECAUSE they like BB, rather, I'm saying that BB 'clicks' with a great deal of immature people because it's essentially "Batman for Dummies", and immature people are dummies, so of course they'll enjoy it... it's a Batman movie they can understand without hurting themselves thinking. Most of said probably-immature people turn right around and bash Burton's flicks... and I've never seen a mature person feel the need to tear down something for no other reason than just to do it. And I'm not talking disliking the films, I'm talking hating on the film for no good, intelligent reasons or for no reason at all.

As for goths being a big audience of BR's fanbase, I wouldn't doubt it. The emo weirdos are another form of immaturity; they can't cope with life because they aren't mature enough to. Emos wouldn't enojy the film for it being an adaptation, they wouldn't enjoy the subtext, to them, all it would be is "Batman's like me."

In truth, immature people could be great lovers of Burton's work as well. Batwing6655 comes to mind.... but I wouldn't respect them in the least. BB is just the most glaring bit because it's damn simplistic. And immature people don't have the depth or complexity to enjoy Burton's material, in most cases. But for them, BB is right up their alley.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Bruce didn't train in gunless fighting his WHOLE LIFE. He'd left around the same age that Bruce was in BATMAN BEGINS. And, with Joe Chill BACK IN CONTINUITY....the Batman Begins origin could become canon.

Batman HAS picked up a gun though. Him picking up a gun AFTER all the training is what doesn't make sense. That's NOT Batman....yet, Batman did it...in the comics....where the gospel exists.

And, having Bruce has a lost soul.....(calling him a fool is idiotic) is interesting and creates something the comics were too stupid to come up with. A sense of development. Batman is entirely too narrow in the books.....apprently he'd become Batman when he was 8 yrs. The training was just arbituary.

And, I've heard Bruce picked up a gun in BATMAN YEAR TWO as well.

And, again....it's different b/c Bruce can avenge his parents. In the comics, Batman actually shot Joe Chill when he got the chance to go back in time. He could have snapped his neck, or broken his chest cavity....but he shot him.

Attacking Batman Begins as if it's brokem some kind of law is insane b/c the comics has established it's all game. Claiming otherwise is beyond wrong.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Batman is entirely too narrow in the books

That's the kind of thinking that lets people like Bryan Singer think it's okay to put Wolverine in black leather.

Going off of what the comic books did, for whatever reason, negates the film as an overtly "pure" adaptation. If the Batman story is narrow in the comics... then it needs to be in the film as well. It's not something for an ADAPTATION to fix. Good or bad, unless the circumstances are special, what's in the books needs to be what goes up on the screen. Artistic interpretation is one thing, but Nolan feeling that the story in the books needed "realistic" alteration to make Bruce an unfocused, relateable (to the average guy) schlub is unacceptable.

At least Burton only gave Bruce Social Axiety Disorder. When not nervous from a large crowd, his Bruce was quite focused and adult, which is how Bruce Wayne was the INSTANT his parents hit the ground. It's one of the most tragic, heartwrenching things about the Batman mythos, that Bruce grew up in that fraction of a second and never had a real childhood.