The Dark Knight Batman No More?

[Paradoxium]

Altruism is a positive action that is sacrificial. The absence of not being Bats is hardly that. The question that puts this all perspective: are my goals better off with me being Wayne or Batman?

While Spidey and Superman did the whole doubting hero thing, the context is much different; Bat activities affect the welfare of other people. Thus the doubt. With Spidey and Supes, their actions affect their personal welfare. Thus the doubt. Its a reversal of the second-sequel-cliche if you ask me. And I hate that emo Parker schtick of "woe is me, its not easy being me". I find that type of self pity kind of pathetic...

 

[Eggyman]

Altruism is a positive action that is sacrificial. The absence of not being Bats is hardly that. The question that puts this all perspective: are my goals better off with me being Wayne or Batman?

While Spidey and Superman did the whole doubting hero thing, the context is much different; Bat activities affect the welfare of other people. Thus the doubt. With Spidey and Supes, their actions affect their personal welfare. Thus the doubt. Its a reversal of the second-sequel-cliche if you ask me. And I hate that emo Parker schtick of "woe is me, its not easy being me". I find that type of self pity kind of pathetic...

That's exactly why I don't mind this spin on hanging the tights up as much as I did in Spidey 2. It's a heroic act in itself -- putting the people of Gotham before his need to seek justice.

 

[Sandouras]

Absolutely. That's why if he has a change of heart, if it's approached this way I am so there.

I'm so tired of the "Ohh, it's sooo hard having a personal life and being a superhero!" angst. We need some new angst!

After his parent's deaths he is Batman. He disguises himself as BW. Kinda like that. Alfred has said it thousands of times in the comics. He is himself in the cowl, in the cave more than he is out there as BW. I think in Batman Beyond you can see it even better. When grumpy ol' Bruce is hearing voices. He explains to Terry that he knew the voices werent his mind going crazy, cause they kept calling him Bruce. And thats not how he calls himself....
In other words, if a persona is gonna be left out for time reasons or whatever, it aint gonna be batman...

 

[CrypticOne]

Ok ok, so I nabbed the title from Spider-man 2 . . . no harm, no foul

I'm not gonna get all defensive about creating a new thread; if you want to flame me then fire away. But hear me out first eh?

Ok, so it's mainly the trailer that has made me think this, and a couple of other things, too. My question to my fellow Hypers is: Do you think that Bruce will consider or even, for a short time, actually hang up his cape and cowl in The Dark Knight?

You might be wondering what makes me ask this question. Well, maybe Bruce will regret creating his monster because the escalation Gordon spoke of at the end of Begins seems to be coming true. A couple of things in the trailer made me think that this could be the case:

Alfred saying 'endure' and 'Gotham needs you' in responce to Bruce saying 'What would you have me do?'

Bruce holding the cowl as if in deep thought about his alter ego.

Also, let's not forget the change of the Batsuit. We have been told that there is a specific reason for the change; maybe Bruce destroys the Begins suit after deciding to quit being Batman . . . and then once coming to his senses needs a new suit to continue on his quest. Maybe.

Now I'm not saying that this is probable, and I'm not even saying that I like the idea. All I'm saying is that it's possible, and that it would be something to discuss about Bruce/Batman on these Joker-saturated boards (not that I have a problem with that).

Discuss

Sounds like an idea. I was kind of thinking of the same things when Bruce/Batman says those things in the trailer. You're not wrong, I could see that going down in the movie.

 

[Anita18]

I don't think Gordon blames Batman at all, if you take into account Gordon already expecting escalation at the end of Batman Begins. It all of a sudden puts new meaning on Batman/Bruce Wayne when he says "Escalation?" like he never thought it through to that point.

I think the Mayor tells Gordon to put an end to his and the police station's relationship with Batman when there's an attempted assassination by the Joker. Now, everybody (but Gordon) has turned against Batman.

Agree on the second point. I think Gordon will be torn, but he believes in the hope that Batman gives the city.

When reading about the escalation that would happen in TDK, I immediately thought of Iraq. Yes, I know it sounds canned, but the situations are similar. Batman took out Falcone because he was the source of all the corruption, and now all these other people are vying for power in Gotham. He didn't realize when he was going in, what he was getting himself into. It's quite similar to what happened in Iraq - taking away Saddam was a good thing, but then it created this power vacuum and now all these factions are fighting for power. It's a huge effin' mess. It'll sort itself out eventually I'm sure, but it sure is a mess right now.

The difference between Iraq and TDK is that I'm sure each side in Iraq has its own rationale for doing what they do. They all want their own version of order and rules. The Joker has no rationale, other than total chaos.

 

[turtlefocker]

It'd be sort of an obvious plot point if he did briefly decide to hang up the cape and cowl. I imagine it'll be after a series of people in the city government die at the hands of Joker. But it's one of those necessary things that has to be in a movie cause that's the logical way it'll go.

I personally hope that scene with Lucius saying "Now that's an idea, Mr. Wayne" involves the new suit. Maybe Lucius finds Bruce down in the R&D lab looking around for equipment to assemble another suit (Obviously the old one is destroyed or ineffective). Bruce says something funny like..

"I need some stuff."
"Stuff?"
"For..spelunking. Cave diving, remember?"
"Expecting to run into much gunfire in those caves?"
"Lots of it."

Then maybe a bit of silence as Lucius realizes Bruce is...coming back, so to speak and says "Now that's an idea."

That would be a fun little dialog exchange. I think it would be cool to see something like that.

 

[Eggyman]

It'd be sort of an obvious plot point if he did briefly decide to hang up the cape and cowl. I imagine it'll be after a series of people in the city government die at the hands of Joker. But it's one of those necessary things that has to be in a movie cause that's the logical way it'll go.

I personally hope that scene with Lucius saying "Now that's an idea, Mr. Wayne" involves the new suit. Maybe Lucius finds Bruce down in the R&D lab looking around for equipment to assemble another suit (Obviously the old one is destroyed or ineffective). Bruce says something funny like..

"I need some stuff."
"Stuff?"
"For..spelunking. Cave diving, remember?"
"Expecting to run into much gunfire in those caves?"
"Lots of it."

Then maybe a bit of silence as Lucius realizes Bruce is...coming back, so to speak and says "Now that's an idea."

Hahahahahahahaha I love that idea. We need more of that unspoken acknowledgement in this film; I thought it worked very well in Begins.

 

[Doomofman]

I was thinking this today... I reckon he'll hang up the cape at the end of TDK after Rachel gets killed.... And the third movie will be about him coming back to fight dent

 

[Batman18]

I hope to hell Nolan didn't go this route with the whole "I need to quit" thing. Bruce Wayne is man obsessed with waging a war on crime thus the need to create the Batman persona to fight it more hands on. He cannot quit because he doesn't know how. This is addressed in The Killing Joke at the end of the book when Batman and The Joker are talking. We've all read the book ad nauseum and it's supposedly an inspiration for TDK. I truly hope they don't do this.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Ok ok, so I nabbed the title from Spider-man 2 . . . no harm, no foul

I'm not gonna get all defensive about creating a new thread; if you want to flame me then fire away. But hear me out first eh?

Ok, so it's mainly the trailer that has made me think this, and a couple of other things, too. My question to my fellow Hypers is: Do you think that Bruce will consider or even, for a short time, actually hang up his cape and cowl in The Dark Knight?

You might be wondering what makes me ask this question. Well, maybe Bruce will regret creating his monster because the escalation Gordon spoke of at the end of Begins seems to be coming true. A couple of things in the trailer made me think that this could be the case:

Alfred saying 'endure' and 'Gotham needs you' in responce to Bruce saying 'What would you have me do?'

Bruce holding the cowl as if in deep thought about his alter ego.

Also, let's not forget the change of the Batsuit. We have been told that there is a specific reason for the change; maybe Bruce destroys the Begins suit after deciding to quit being Batman . . . and then once coming to his senses needs a new suit to continue on his quest. Maybe.

Now I'm not saying that this is probable, and I'm not even saying that I like the idea. All I'm saying is that it's possible, and that it would be something to discuss about Bruce/Batman on these Joker-saturated boards (not that I have a problem with that).

Discuss

the "what would you have me do" is probably connected to a discussion about to kill or not to kill the Joker. Batman has battled that dillema within himself before.

the only way Batman will quit being Batman is if he gets injured or blackmaled somehow. They aren't going to want to copy Spider-Man 2.

 

[Carnotaur3]

Agree on the second point. I think Gordon will be torn, but he believes in the hope that Batman gives the city.

When reading about the escalation that would happen in TDK, I immediately thought of Iraq. Yes, I know it sounds canned, but the situations are similar. Batman took out Falcone because he was the source of all the corruption, and now all these other people are vying for power in Gotham. He didn't realize when he was going in, what he was getting himself into. It's quite similar to what happened in Iraq - taking away Saddam was a good thing, but then it created this power vacuum and now all these factions are fighting for power. It's a huge effin' mess. It'll sort itself out eventually I'm sure, but it sure is a mess right now.

The difference between Iraq and TDK is that I'm sure each side in Iraq has its own rationale for doing what they do. They all want their own version of order and rules. The Joker has no rationale, other than total chaos.

I agree, Nolan could be relating the subjects. But it might just so happen, he never thought he was. But it is, indeed, very interesting.

 

[bosef982]

I don't think it's a cop out. Batman is mostly about saving lives, protecting people through his war against crime. If he felt the public was in danger because of him...he'd lay down his cowl.

 

[Dgm2889]

I always figured that after being attacked by the dogs, as mentioned when he battles Crane/Chechen gang at the beginning, the old batsuit is destroyed since the dogs have sharp teeth. Batman is no match for the dogs because he can't turn his head fast enough to see them all.

 

[The Batman]

all these people saying "Batman is the true persona" have not listened to a damn thing nolan, bale, and goyer have said on the whole "true identity" topic...

 

[HUMANIMAL]

dont know if anyone already mentioned it...but i was too tired too read all the posts...i guess by having all these other batmans wich getting hurt (i think /at least one for sure)...makes him thinking of what he created...and also these false batmans maybe dont use the code to do not kill and stuff...they bring batman in a wrong light(as this term is correct???hope you understand it either way) no one wants people dressed up as batman fighting crime like they want to ....oh and i forget about AMH ...the press will surely try to make batman look like a threat for gotham ...

 

[Lead_Tester]

Ok ok, so I nabbed the title from Spider-man 2 . . . no harm, no foul

I'm not gonna get all defensive about creating a new thread; if you want to flame me then fire away. But hear me out first eh?

Ok, so it's mainly the trailer that has made me think this, and a couple of other things, too. My question to my fellow Hypers is: Do you think that Bruce will consider or even, for a short time, actually hang up his cape and cowl in The Dark Knight?

You might be wondering what makes me ask this question. Well, maybe Bruce will regret creating his monster because the escalation Gordon spoke of at the end of Begins seems to be coming true. A couple of things in the trailer made me think that this could be the case:

Alfred saying 'endure' and 'Gotham needs you' in responce to Bruce saying 'What would you have me do?'

Bruce holding the cowl as if in deep thought about his alter ego.

Also, let's not forget the change of the Batsuit. We have been told that there is a specific reason for the change; maybe Bruce destroys the Begins suit after deciding to quit being Batman . . . and then once coming to his senses needs a new suit to continue on his quest. Maybe.

Now I'm not saying that this is probable, and I'm not even saying that I like the idea. All I'm saying is that it's possible, and that it would be something to discuss about Bruce/Batman on these Joker-saturated boards (not that I have a problem with that).

Discuss

Clever

 

[samsnee]

all these people saying "Batman is the true persona" have not listened to a damn thing nolan, bale, and goyer have said on the whole "true identity" topic...

And what have they said? I honestly don't know.

 

[Matt]

I personally don't like the idea of a "Batman no more" story line. I don't care what Nolan, Bale, and Goyer have said on the "true identity"...my interpretation of the character has always been that Bruce Wayne died the same night as his parents and Batman was born. Thats how I have always seen him, though I do appreciate how it can be a neccessary cinematic plot device, I don't like it.

 

[Ridethehighwind]

the "what would you have me do" is probably connected to a discussion about to kill or not to kill the Joker. Batman has battled that dillema within himself before.

the only way Batman will quit being Batman is if he gets injured or blackmaled somehow. They aren't going to want to copy Spider-Man 2.

That, to me, would be the best outcome. Wayne arguing that people are dying and he needs to break the no-kill rule to stop the violence.

 

[bonesawmcgraw]

I always figured that after being attacked by the dogs, as mentioned when he battles Crane/Chechen gang at the beginning, the old batsuit is destroyed since the dogs have sharp teeth. Batman is no match for the dogs because he can't turn his head fast enough to see them all.

Dogs with teeth sharp enough to pierce kevlar? i don't think so.

 

[Figs]

Dogs with teeth sharp enough to pierce kevlar? i don't think so.

Agreed. If that "sucker can stop a knife" I don't see how the dogs would get through it either.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

I think opposite will happen. Before filming began I remember hearing that Bruce would struggle with his losing his identity, that Wayne would become more Batman and less Bruce. Also we heard one of the Nolans I believe say that this movie would take Batman into a darker area, were he might have to cross the line.

Therefore I think that the conversation he is having with Alfred has more so to do with his methods, i.e. killing the Joker.

Perhaps some of the recent vigilantes are taking lethal action, and Bruce is now contemplating adopting their method.

The Joker knows this and believes the most effect way of defeating Batman is to bring Batman down to his level, to make him a murderer.

i.e. "Come on, hit me!"

By Batman killing the Joker it gives reason for people to believe that he is no different then the Joker. Which I am sure people are already thinking, which is probably why Gordon smashes the Bat signal.

So I think that is what that scene is about, (the Alfred/ Bruce scene) and not about Bats hanging up the tights.

 

[Axtech]

I personally don't like the idea of a "Batman no more" story line. I don't care what Nolan, Bale, and Goyer have said on the "true identity"...my interpretation of the character has always been that Bruce Wayne died the same night as his parents and Batman was born. Thats how I have always seen him, though I do appreciate how it can be a neccessary cinematic plot device, I don't like it.

I agree here. My hope (and expectation) is that this will be a very minor point in the movie. All too often Superhero movies have centred around the "should I give it all up" internal conflict. But with everything else going on in this movie, I'm hoping it will just be a momentary frustration before he comes back with a vengeance.

 

[DACrowe]

Well I honestly got that undertone from the trailer. But I hope that it is not the case for this movie, because while I did not mind SM2 revisiting the ocncept from SII, as it was in the comics for Spidey first and improved, the idea was so well executed in SM2, I really don't want to see it happen in another superhero movie again, because it will seem formulaic. Yes, it could be Bruce doing it for altrustic reasons (which I would prefer) or Bruce Wayne No More (which sounds way too early for, maybe in Batman 3)...but a "hero no more" would be cliche after SM2.

But I get hints of it. I just think that the **** gets really bad and Bruce wonders if he should continue and has doubts but never acts on them because Alfred is advising him, but Joker poises himself as the answer to Batman and thus the city turns on him in fear for not stopping Joker and inspiring nutjobs like him and in a panic the police destroy the batsignal and Bruce will keep his calm and bring Joker in, even if he is taunted to kill him, though.

 

[Axtech]

I think opposite will happen. Before filming began I remember hearing that Bruce would struggle with his losing his identity, that Wayne would become more Batman and less Bruce. Also we heard one of the Nolans I believe say that this movie would take Batman into a darker area, were he might have to cross the line.

Therefore I think that the conversation he is having with Alfred has more so to do with his methods, i.e. killing the Joker.

Perhaps some of the recent vigilantes are taking lethal action, and Bruce is now contemplating adopting their method.

The Joker knows this and believes the most effect way of defeating Batman is to bring Batman down to his level, to make him a murderer.

i.e. "Come on, hit me!"

By Batman killing the Joker it gives reason for people to believe that he is no different then the Joker. Which I am sure people are already thinking, which is probably why Gordon smashes the Bat signal.

So I think that is what that scene is about, (the Alfred/ Bruce scene) and not about Bats hanging up the tights.

I like that. I really hope you're right!