Batman R.I.P.

Maybe I am odd, but for me, this whole arc seems to be going "far out" just for the sake of being "out there". I just don't see how this is going to strengthen the character or even mature him. I hope I'm wrong.

As for the comment about being the most drastic thing in 70 years. For me, it isn't near as epic as Knightfall or even No Man's Land.
 
I'm thinking maybe he doesn't have it at all and it's hallucinatory. It looked different in the opening page from what we see in the end. Anyway you could find the Zur En Arrh story in Batman in the Fifties. I collect reprints from golden age to modern so I have read this story before I just re-read it yesterday to refreshen my mind on it.

I'm even looking through old Morrison stories that feature Batman. I noticed somebody bringing up Thomas Wayne Jr. but he's been dead for years if we consider that story canon since Morrison seems to be acknowledging everything he died in Batman's arms. But what about the other Thomas Wayne Jr.? the one from Morrison's JLA Earth 2, Owlman. A man who is obsessed with destroying things and is as calculating as Bruce Wayne himself and hates him cause he lives while the Bruce Wayne he knew and loved as a brother died as a kid. Could he be behind this? maybe not but still possible.

This issue I didn't find hard to follow Bruce has been drugged up and disillusioned to the point of having hallucinations. The Black Glove organization took over the batcave want to raise hell in Gotham and had Nightwing committed to Arkham thanks to a good old switcheroo they're already beginning to affect the people around Batman. They already got to Dick and Alfred this is just the beginning of the breakdown. The beauty of all this is Bruce keeps on fighting even in his drugged induce state which brings back to mind Alfred saying not to underestimate his mind. He's still driven to find out what's good he feels something inside him telling him to fight. That's Batman.

The question is what was real and what wasn't during the Bruce scenes but since this is only issue 3 obviously you can't expect that answer yet. Was Honor a ghost? what exactly is Bat Mite's role in all this? a fail safe created by Batman? what significance does his first appearance in Morrison's run hold now in retrospect. Is Jezebel Jet a black glove agent?That's what's great about this arc Morrison has Batman fans playing detective lol. You know damn well you can't wait for the next issue to see where things go next, great momentum in this arc and it makes me kinda mad that I gave up on Morrison's run initially after the club of heroes arc. Cause looking as far back as Batman and Son there are clues everywhere

The Batman of Zur En Arrh knew everything about Batman as well to the point of being influenced to adopt the mantle in his own world. Seems like Morrison deliberately throwing more stuff out there to keep us guessing. He's another possible Black Glove suspect due to his observations of Batman's life perhaps he wants to trade places make the real Batman think he's Zur En Arrh Batman and have the batcave to himself to destroy everything Batman has built up. But alas that's just another outlandish theory.

Truthfully since Morrison said the craziest stuff to happen in the character's history who could it be behind this? outside of Joe Chill somehow being behind this and his Batman witnessed suicide just being another brainwashing experiment on Batman. But I don't know about that. I'm still sticking with the obvious theory of the black glove being Thomas Wayne Sr. The way this has read so far everything we thought we knew about his parents may be misconception. What if Alfred really is his biological father and not Thomas.

What if Thomas did orchestrate his murder and faked his death while having Martha dead for her infidelity and having him believe the butler's kid was his. What if all along he's been watching from the sideliines watching Bruce develop a life as Batman and surrogate family of his own and wanting to destroy it all out of resentment. Hell could Hurt himself be Thomas Wayne? could this be why he said the only way he'd accept Batman back would be as his butler maybe cause he seems him as being unworthy of carrying his name and feels it's in his nature to follow his biological father's job title. Now that would shock the hell out of many people and would definitely rock Batman's world. But who knows it could all be smoke screens can't wait to see how everything pans out eventually.

so basically, you think that, more or less, Morrison is just putting all the retconned silver age stuff back into modern continuity? The thing is, is it necessary? Nothing in Morrison's run has really been coherent enough for me to go "Holy Crap! This is intense!" because since reading his run, i've been completely baffled by the inconsistencies, the jumps all over the place, the introduction of certain points out of the blue.

And i agree with other posters, this doesn't seem to be as epic as past "epic" events, like Knightfall. It seems to me that Morrison's run is so out there that once he's done, someone's just gonna go "yea, that never happened". Another thing is that while introducing the silver age stuff back into continuity may be cool, borrowing major plot points from other books to tell your own story really isn't. I'll read this 'till the end, and we'll see how i feel from there. But right now, there's too much trying to figure out what the hell is going on for me to actually say whether or not i can enjoy it.
 
And I want to add something.

If he does truly mess with Thomas Wayne and Alfred, it's something that is gurantee'd for a good ole' Marvel retcon. You simply can't take characters like that and change them in such a drastic way. And with that being the case, it is best not to even open that door. If you have a story to tell, that is fine, but that story doesn't have to just piss on the foundation of the main character or his surrounding characters.
 
What if Batman is in the isolation chamber still and everything that has happened since he entered the isolation chamber happened all in his head.
 
What if Batman is in the isolation chamber still and everything that has happened since he entered the isolation chamber happened all in his head.

The ultimate cop-out.

If that's the case, it'll probably end with one of those "Batman learns a lesson" things, in which he'll change his outlook on life or whatever. Meanwhile, Grant Morrison will be sitting at home laughing at all of us for dropping 3 bucks(plus tax) on a simple, stupid "What If...?" tale that has no value at all. Oh i can only imagine the backlash from the fans if that happens, and it already has me wincing.
 
this maybe nothing new...

but....


With Bat-Mite making a camo, I can't really say that I trust that what we are reading is the truth.

I like the idea that this is all in Bruce's head...as he's still in the isolation chamber.
 
Okay, I have a theory as to why the Zur-En-Arrh stuff is involved in this story.

Batman was trying to track down the Black Glove this whole story, and yet he seems almost impossible to find. Jezebel even goes as far as to say there's so little evidence for his existence that it could be Bruce himself.

I found an interesting thing on LiveJournal on Batman #113, where Zur-En-Arrh is introduced: http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5789601.html#cutid1

In the story, Batman has to battle against robots attacking the planet. He battles them effortlessly with superhuman strength gained from the planet's athmosphere, until they suddenly turn invisible and start kicking Batman's ass.

Finally, Batman figures out how to use the Bat-Radia and the robots become visible again.

That's why he's using the Bat-Radia and making this new run as the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh: With the Bat-Radia, the Black Glove, once invisible and unbeatable, has/will be found.
 
why did Hurt wear the Thomas Wayne Batman costume? I think that's a red herring.
 
What if Hurt is jealous over Bruce Wayne/Batman to the point he has decided to destroy Bruce Wayne and re-invent HIMSELF as the new Batman.
 
What if Hurt is jealous over Bruce Wayne/Batman to the point he has decided to destroy Bruce Wayne and re-invent HIMSELF as the new Batman.

I was thinking that myself because when you look at the new Dini Batman comic covers, you see some stiches on a face so i was thinking: Maybe Hush took a plastic surgery to look just like Bruce.
 
Morrison is reaching at this point. This is getting a bit ridiculous.
 
so basically, you think that, more or less, Morrison is just putting all the retconned silver age stuff back into modern continuity?

He's been doing this his whole entire run.

The thing is, is it necessary?

Depends on how you look at it, him acknowledging all those stories expands the modern Batman's history quite a bit and makes it richer and more varied. I was questioning why he was doing it earlier in his run which is why I dropped it but now I get what he was going for with that, it adds more possibilities in terms of storytelling.

Nothing in Morrison's run has really been coherent enough for me to go "Holy Crap! This is intense!" because since reading his run, i've been completely baffled by the inconsistencies, the jumps all over the place, the introduction of certain points out of the blue.

The one's I've read nothing has been a mind **** at all it's pretty straight forward then again I am familiar with all 70 years of Batman unlike a lot of fans. That being said something has to give if you haven't been blown away by his stories but yet still read them lol it must've had some kind of impact on you.

And i agree with other posters, this doesn't seem to be as epic as past "epic" events, like Knightfall.it's the breakdown of It seems to me that Morrison's run is so out there that once he's done, someone's just gonna go "yea, that never happened". Another thing is that while introducing the silver age stuff back into continuity may be cool, borrowing major plot points from other books to tell your own story really isn't. I'll read this 'till the end, and we'll see how i feel from there. But right now, there's too much trying to figure out what the hell is going on for me to actually say whether or not i can enjoy it.

It's no supposed to be like Knightfall just supposed to be another event made for the fans. I think what makes people make that mistake is cause he said the last issue of this arc will rock the character's world. But notice he didn't say the entire story he specified that last issue. Knightfall was the breakdown of Batman on a physical level and mainstream friendly this is more intimate in that it's continuity laden like a lot of DC stories and is supposed to showcase the mental breakdown of Batman. This is in many ways a story for the older fans first. If you're familiar with Morrison's past work with the character or even old stories like the untold legends of the Batman you see all the parrallels they draw with this event more or less.

That being said I think the epic will begin by next ish as Hurt and his cronies want to put Gotham on it's knees and we've already seen something as shocking as Grayson being committed to Arkham and drugged up. You can't be mad at this being at the third part and you're trying to figure everything out that's the point we the reader are right there with Bruce Wayne and everybody else trying to makes sense of what is going on it's gaining momentum to give us payoff by the time the arc is complete. What's the fun in having all the answers so early on it gives you no reason to even continue reading.
 
I think if you're looking at those old 50s and 60s stories for plot points you're barking up the wrong tree. It's more thematic material with the idea that wild things happened to Batman in the past which seem hallucinatory in today's context. With the exception of "Robin Dies at Dawn" which is compatible with modern continuity.

In "Robin Dies at Dawn" Batman is broken down psychologically to the point where he's having hallucinations and isn't sure what's real and what's not. Sound familiar? The key point that snaps him out of it and back to reality is the imminent death of Robin in reality. Morrison left that plot point out of his retelling and I'm thinking he's going to return to that for the climax.

Morrison's run has been full of alternative Batmen from the start. Ninja man-bats, the three ghosts of Batman, Batman of the future, the international Batmen of the Club of Heroes and he's continuing that theme with Dr. Hurt becoming the first Batman and Bruce Wayne becoming the Batman of Zur-Enn-Arrh. I'm guessing that we're going to see the true Batman, however Morrison sees it, reemerge from this arc.

I'll note that at his lowest point and stripped of all of the things that seem to make up Batman, his memories of his parents' murder, his gadgets, his associates, his costume, his home, etc., underneath it all Bruce Wayne is still Batman. This seems to be something that Morrison is reasserting rather than deconstructing.
 
And I want to add something.

If he does truly mess with Thomas Wayne and Alfred, it's something that is gurantee'd for a good ole' Marvel retcon. You simply can't take characters like that and change them in such a drastic way. And with that being the case, it is best not to even open that door. If you have a story to tell, that is fine, but that story doesn't have to just piss on the foundation of the main character or his surrounding characters.

If he goes in that direction what makes you think it will get retconned? he did drastic things with the X-Men and JLA during his runs there and they were accepted by fans because of the way they were presented and were never retconned. Thomas Wayne is not some sacred cow character we don't even know much of the guy. The only real significance is the crime alley incident but in modern continuity at times when we have actually seen him outside of that scenario we've seen him be apathetic towards Bruce and a bit of a jerk, we've seen Alfred always be the real father figure anyway. If and that's if he takes it there he won't be contradicting things we've seen before just putting a new spin on them.
 
I'll note that at his lowest point and all of the things that seem to make up Batman, his memories of his parents' murder, his gadgets, his associates, his costume, his home, etc., underneath it all Bruce Wayne is still Batman. This seems to be something that Morrison is reasserting rather than deconstructing.

Yeah that's kind of what stripping him down to drugged out hobo status yet amongst all that he is still driven and putting up fights has pretty much proven. Oh and JRK's post about the bat radia may be on to something.
 
I think if you're looking at those old 50s and 60s stories for plot points you're barking up the wrong tree. It's more thematic material with the idea that wild things happened to Batman in the past which seem hallucinatory in today's context. With the exception of "Robin Dies at Dawn" which is compatible with modern continuity.

I dunno, when you consider the shared DCU, with it's magic and aliens and such, is stuff like Bat-Mite and Zurr-En-Arrh really all that impossible?

It's possible that he's using them as hallucinations--creating a sort-of Born Again story with over-the-top aliens and ghosts as allegories (like I mentioned earlier with the Bat-Radia). But it's also just as possible that they're all real and have to do with the story.
 
If he goes in that direction what makes you think it will get retconned? he did drastic things with the X-Men and JLA during his runs there and they were accepted by fans because of the way they were presented and were never retconned. Thomas Wayne is not some sacred cow character we don't even know much of the guy. The only real significance is the crime alley incident but in modern continuity at times when we have actually seen him outside of that scenario we've seen him be apathetic towards Bruce and a bit of a jerk, we've seen Alfred always be the real father figure anyway. If and that's if he takes it there he won't be contradicting things we've seen before just putting a new spin on them.

It's just a fundamental part. He lost his parents to a violent crime and Alfred stepped in.

Alright - let's put it like this. Are you willing to accept that Alfred wants to destroy Batman? Or that he is even Bruce's father? I'm not. I refuse to believe that Alfred would of fathered Bruce, let the boy believe his "real" parents were dead and then turn around and dedicate his whole life to being the vengeance in the night. At some point, Alfred would of sat Bruce down, tried to convince him with some DNA and explained the whole situation.

When dealing with Thomas Wayne himself, it still just seems wrong. Him being the dead father is so crucial to the Batman character.

And while I appreciate Morrison's love for the old stuff, as someone who quit reading comics for years, I find it annoying that I have to reference Wikipedia and buy a bunch of back trades like Batman in the Fifties just to get some obscure Silver Age reference.

I'll continue to read the arc, because I can't deny I am interested in where this is going, but I can't say I'm really enjoying the arc itself.
 
i've not been following this storyline, anyone kind enough to fill me in?

Are they actually killing Bruce/Batman?

Who's gonna take over the mantle?

And whats the story arc actually called?
 
Okay, I have a theory as to why the Zur-En-Arrh stuff is involved in this story.

Batman was trying to track down the Black Glove this whole story, and yet he seems almost impossible to find. Jezebel even goes as far as to say there's so little evidence for his existence that it could be Bruce himself.

I found an interesting thing on LiveJournal on Batman #113, where Zur-En-Arrh is introduced: http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5789601.html#cutid1

In the story, Batman has to battle against robots attacking the planet. He battles them effortlessly with superhuman strength gained from the planet's athmosphere, until they suddenly turn invisible and start kicking Batman's ass.

Finally, Batman figures out how to use the Bat-Radia and the robots become visible again.

That's why he's using the Bat-Radia and making this new run as the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh: With the Bat-Radia, the Black Glove, once invisible and unbeatable, has/will be found.

interesting theory, but remember, the bat-radia technically doesn't exist. In the panels at the end of the issue, it's actually just a broken radio, and in Bruce's delusions, it's the bat-radia. So my guess is that while still in his mania, Bruce finds the Black Glove, not through the fake bat-radia, but by simple detective skills disguised by Bruce's mania as the bat-radia doing its job. And if that's the case, i'll be far more into reading this story. It makes sense...one of the few things that does.

Of course, that being said, suppose this bat-radia delusion simply opens Bruce's mind to make him realize that he's actually the one behind it all? I have to re-read all of Morrison's run because there's so many possibilities.
 
He's been doing this his whole entire run.

And some of it, atleast to me, has been rather hit or miss. Robin Dies At Dawn with the isolation chamber...cool. The International League of Batmen? Not so much. I didn't enjoy that story at all. The idea of Batman-inspired heroes is an interesting one, but if felt the story was bad, and the executed idea was stupid too. Especially since Morrison more or less killed off half of them. What was the point, other than to introduce the Black Glove?

Depends on how you look at it, him acknowledging all those stories expands the modern Batman's history quite a bit and makes it richer and more varied. I was questioning why he was doing it earlier in his run which is why I dropped it but now I get what he was going for with that, it adds more possibilities in terms of storytelling.

I agree with you to an extent. It certainly opens of possibilities with storytelling, but it all comes down to execution. Look above at what i said about the International League of Batmen. Morrison really just brought that back to kill them and introduce the Black Glove. Silly Idea. Now, this Batman of Zur-En-Arrh? Who knows how it'll play off. Time can only tell.

The one's I've read nothing has been a mind **** at all it's pretty straight forward then again I am familiar with all 70 years of Batman unlike a lot of fans. That being said something has to give if you haven't been blown away by his stories but yet still read them lol it must've had some kind of impact on you.

Nah, i think you might have misunderstood what i said. Regardless of the incorporation of 70 years of Batman thrown into this run, my complaint was that Morrison jumps from Point A to point D to point F then to point W, and then back to point B. Morrison has characters talking about things that make me feel as if i missed something in another issue or something. Things feel left out, and doing that with jumping around are making me scream "WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?!" in all the wrong ways. Im not sure if it's made any impact on me than it is my urge to see if Morrison creatively ties everything together and makes me go "oooh! Christ...that was genius! Now i see!". Or maybe it's just my discomfort of having to drop the title. I've been saying that i'm dropping the Spirit issue after issue, because right now it's good-awful trash. But i still buy it for some reason and i keep getting pissed with it. But we'll see how Batman winds up.

It's no supposed to be like Knightfall just supposed to be another event made for the fans. I think what makes people make that mistake is cause he said the last issue of this arc will rock the character's world. But notice he didn't say the entire story he specified that last issue. Knightfall was the breakdown of Batman on a physical level and mainstream friendly this is more intimate in that it's continuity laden like a lot of DC stories and is supposed to showcase the mental breakdown of Batman. This is in many ways a story for the older fans first. If you're familiar with Morrison's past work with the character or even old stories like the untold legends of the Batman you see all the parrallels they draw with this event more or less.

Morrison seems to be hyping it up as something epic. I hardly think that saying this arc is going to be "rocking the character's world" and "will be the biggest thing in all 70 years of the character's history" is just another story to tell. I think it's a huge story, a special story. One that could be bloody freakin' amazing and have people talk about it years after it's been told, like Knightfall.

I'm waiting to see how Morrison's tying this all together, so again, i'll wait to see it. I'm not sure if i like the idea of looking back at all of Batman's history...again. I mean, there's The Untold Legend of Batman, which was great, Batman #400, which tested his abilities and mind and proved that Batman's going to be around for quite awhile, no matter what. Maybe my problem is just that Morrison's just taking plot points from other stories and not from his imagination. I don't know yet. I've read Arkham Asylum, as well as the other two stories i mentioned, and i've been a fan of the character since i was a baby. But i've became a big follower upon hearing news of the new Batman film(what eventually became Batman Begins). I've read many silver age stories, and i'm open to anything as long as it's interesting. But some of them are awful stories. I mean, maybe Morrison will have Batman Jones pick up where he left off. Maybe he'll make The Joker pull the ***** of the 21st century! There's only so many good stories that he can incorporate, but aside from Robin Dies At Dawn and elements from The First Batman story, i haven't been into everything else. I'll check out the Batman In The 50's trade to read this Zur-En-Arrh story, but we'll see what happens.


That being said I think the epic will begin by next ish as Hurt and his cronies want to put Gotham on it's knees and we've already seen something as shocking as Grayson being committed to Arkham and drugged up. You can't be mad at this being at the third part and you're trying to figure everything out that's the point we the reader are right there with Bruce Wayne and everybody else trying to makes sense of what is going on it's gaining momentum to give us payoff by the time the arc is complete. What's the fun in having all the answers so early on it gives you no reason to even continue reading.

Yea, but the thing is, Morrison's been saying everything in his run has tied up to this moment. Didn't the Third Batman from the Black Case book insinuate that Dr. Hurt was Satan himself? Damian's future as Batman seems set in stone, and unless Morrison's just fooling us with issue #666, Batman, Bruce Wayne, really has to die. And if this were something on a bigger scale, i'd say "yea, third part. This is cool", but the problem is, this is part 3 of 6, out of a whole run that's supposed to tie in with this, but has not many any sense whatsoever. Not to mention, this arc has about 12 other issues that tie into this arc, but don't further the story. I'll keep reading, and again, i'll do so with the hope that this arc becomes more coherent within the next 3 issues.
 
Alright - let's put it like this. Are you willing to accept that Alfred wants to destroy Batman? Or that he is even Bruce's father? I'm not. I refuse to believe that Alfred would of fathered Bruce, let the boy believe his "real" parents were dead and then turn around and dedicate his whole life to being the vengeance in the night. At some point, Alfred would of sat Bruce down, tried to convince him with some DNA and explained the whole situation.

You're assuming that Alfred knows but he more than likely does not, that is again if Morrison goes that route.

When dealing with Thomas Wayne himself, it still just seems wrong. Him being the dead father is so crucial to the Batman character.

Not necessarily, it will change the retorspective outlook of his visits to the graves in the past however he would still be Batman and at the end of the day a criminal mind orchestrated the murder of his mom and left him presumably orphaned. So no it won't be something that takes away from the essence at all just alters it. Again if Morrison takes that route.

And while I appreciate Morrison's love for the old stuff, as someone who quit reading comics for years, I find it annoying that I have to reference Wikipedia and buy a bunch of back trades like Batman in the Fifties just to get some obscure Silver Age reference.

You don't have to reference anything it's not that fundamental and when the arc is done everything will be clear to you. For those of us who have owned these reprints for years it's great to pick the easter eggs but for those who just got into comics the most you really have to reference is Morrison's entire run on Batman these past couple of years.

I'll continue to read the arc, because I can't deny I am interested in where this is going, but I can't say I'm really enjoying the arc itself.

This sounds contradictory cause if you're interested in what happens next then there is a level of enjoyment present.
 
You're assuming that Alfred knows but he more than likely does not, that is again if Morrison goes that route.



Not necessarily, it will change the retorspective outlook of his visits to the graves in the past however he would still be Batman and at the end of the day a criminal mind orchestrated the murder of his mom and left him presumably orphaned. So no it won't be something that takes away from the essence at all just alters it. Again if Morrison takes that route.



You don't have to reference anything it's not that fundamental and when the arc is done everything will be clear to you. For those of us who have owned these reprints for years it's great to pick the easter eggs but for those who just got into comics the most you really have to reference is Morrison's entire run on Batman these past couple of years.



This sounds contradictory cause if you're interested in what happens next then there is a level of enjoyment present.

It's not so much contradictory so much as it is like watching a car crash...Which is EXACTLY what this story sounds like.

Seriously. You cannot f*** with the background of Batman like this, though this guy already has and is continuing to do so, it impacts the character in a really horrible way.

You'd THINK that having your parents shot and murdered in front of your eyes for no reason (other than for a couple of bucks) would be traumatic enough and create a dramatic storyline...Now adding that his parents were heroin ****es that wanted to indulge in a threesome with Alfred, and also quite possibly hinting at the fact old Alfred might be his dad? Give me a freaking break. I mean really, this is outrageous, but once again, someone at DC has fallen asleep at the wheel when it comes to letting stories like this get the greenlight.

And I swear to God, if it turns into a dream segment, or "it never happened it was on a distant universe in the alpha quadrant millions of lightyears away" I'm giving up on fantasy story telling in general, because that kind of ending is pure ********, not to mention that it shows the writer ran out of steam A LONG time ago.
 
It's not so much contradictory so much as it is like watching a car crash...Which is EXACTLY what this story sounds like.

Seriously. You cannot f*** with the background of Batman like this, though this guy already has and is continuing to do so, it impacts the character in a really horrible way.

You'd THINK that having your parents shot and murdered in front of your eyes for no reason (other than for a couple of bucks) would be traumatic enough and create a dramatic storyline...Now adding that his parents were heroin ****es that wanted to indulge in a threesome with Alfred, and also quite possibly hinting at the fact old Alfred might be his dad? Give me a freaking break. I mean really, this is outrageous, but once again, someone at DC has fallen asleep at the wheel when it comes to letting stories like this get the greenlight.

And I swear to God, if it turns into a dream segment, or "it never happened it was on a distant universe in the alpha quadrant millions of lightyears away" I'm giving up on fantasy story telling in general, because that kind of ending is pure ********, not to mention that it shows the writer ran out of steam A LONG time ago.

Are you really thinking that this change is going to stick???

This wouldnt be the first time they told a story that seemed to smear the good name of the Waynes and later it turned out to ether be a plot against them or a misunderstanding.
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And considering the writter's rep for I'm guessing that this is what he's trying to go for.

He's not trying to retell or change what he know are the fundimentals of the character but he's trying to re-introduce some of the golden and early silver age story elements while trying to make us think that he's messing with the characters.

I'm sure by the time this arc is over we'll see that every thing we learned was part of some evil or mischievous plot to make Bruce doubt why he's the Batman.
 

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