Batman R.I.P.

I don't remember...did JP Valley Batman ever encountered the Joker?

Yes. And when AzBats was fighting the Joker's henchmen, the Joker immediately figured out that, based on the way AzBats was fighting that he wasn't the real Batman. As a result, the Joker when off on a tirade about how much effort he put into his latest scheme only to have some "phony" show up instead of the real deal. I don't recall whether he even thought about actually NOT killing him because he figured it wasn't even worth his time to kill a "Batman wannabe."

As for regards with the R.I.P. storyline itself, I think there is something we have to take into consideration and that is what the Joker tells Batman with regards to his "wikipedia" statement. Basically, the Joker (and thus Morrison) is telling Batman (and the reader) that we're making things a lot more complicated than they actually are. Of course, given the amount of misdirection and clues and symbols Morrison is using, we, the readers believe there must be something complicated going on, that if we decipher the meanings he's planted, it will all make sense. But the trick with Morrison is, just like in his X-Men run, is that the solutions are actually very simple ones; they only seem complex because of all the imagery and wordplay he uses to distract us, just like any magician would.

So, what would be the simple solutions to some of the mysteries about R.I.P.? Well, the simple answer, as suggested in this issue, is that Jezebel Jet is the Black Glove. Sure, it's obvious, especially if you compare her to the various "red and black" motiff that has been popping up, but, then again, that's the whole point.

Another mystery, who is Simon Hurt? Is he Thomas Wayne still alive? John Mayhew? Joe Chill's son? The devil? Well, the simple answer would be none of the above. He's simply Dr. Simon Hurt, the guy who once performed isolation experiments on Batman. So why then does he hate Batman and going through all of this just elaborate set-up to destroy him? Well remember that Hurt was also, once upon a time, trying to re-create Batman, the "Three Ghosts of Batman" as it were, in case Batman was out of commission. He also had Batman undergo the isolation experiements to see how he ticked, then tried to have these Batmen fight him. And Batman defeated them. My guess is that this really put a number on Dr. Hurt's ego, that he went through all this work to try and help Batman, only to have him "ruin" it. Thus, his radical means of trying to improve them to what they became today, not to mention the post-hypnotic suggestions to make Batman forget. But still, it wasn't enough. Even though Batman no longer remembered, Hurt did, and his ego was still bruised. Nothing more simple than that.

But what about his claims he's Thomas Wayne, that Alfred is Bruce's real father, not to mention the photographic evidence Commissioner Gordon got showing Thomas and Martha being associated with John Mayhew that appears to support that theory? Well, recall that in that same issue, it's was stated that the Black Glove organization has planted false evidence before. Also remember the line in this latest issue when one of the party members asks Hurt whether Batman is "another one of his actors." Well, considering how many members of the Club of Villians there are, not to mention Hurt, and Jezebel, there's certainly more than enough of them to pretend to play various roles via disguises, make-up, and costuming, pose in front of non-digital cameras to make it look more authentic. Not to mention write up a few bogus notes from a private detective. Why? Well, to bait Gordon to go to Wayne Manor, where of course he faces all kinds of booby traps. So why does Hurt tell the same story to Alfred? To let them know what they've been up to.

And what about Jezebel? Why would she want to go after Bruce like this? Well, the simple answer would be that, unlike herself when her father died, Bruce devoted his life to just stopping crime when he could have done so much more with wealth and influence. And maybe she learned a thing or two about Bruce Wayne's parents, of the associations they had with characters like John Mayhew. Maybe it was Mayhew or the Black Glove organization who had her parents killed. Maybe Thomas Wayne was once upon a time a member. As a result, she went "Madame Defarge" and started going after anyone associated with them. Maybe by next issue, all the attendants who came to watch Batman rescue Jezebel will have been poisoned by her and Hurt, that they joined the organization simply to destroy it from within.

Okay, maybe the solutions and motives might be a little more elaborate, or maybe they're not the solutions at all. However, I get the feeling, especially with this issue, that the answers do not involve complex re-working of the Wayne family or elaborate connections to a great degree or that they make things more complex. I think what Morrison is attempting here is that sometimes, the most damaging things in our lives are things which are very simple and that, to explain them, we make them more complex than they really are.
 
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i think your obsessive concerns over jezebel shouldnt be an issue. it's clear that her character is integral to the story, and her being in the forefront of bruce's life is just as necessary to the story. i dont think thats too much to accept, for the sake of the story. and having how she got there to be explained would probably be a long and boring story that i'd rather not read.

as for your remark on who names their kid jezebel, let me tell you a story, and its honest to god true:

my mother used to work in labor and delivery. and one day she delivers a baby. afterwards, a doctor mentions that the baby just passed meconium. upon hearing this, the mother of the newborn says, "ohh, meconium, i like the sound of that, that's what i want to name my baby, it sounds so pretty. meconium." my mother proceeded to explain to her that meconium is what a newborn's first bowel movement is called, and its usually green...it pretty much means green s#!t. but the mother didnt care. she liked the sound of it, and there is a kid out there right now with the name meconium....green s#!t.

either way, i think morrison came up with the name as influenced by bond women. morrison mentioned in interviews that he wanted to take batman back to his james bond ways as seen in 70's batman comics.

They aren't "obsessive" concerns. Just stating what I think about the character is all. She could have been developed better in my opinion. It's not like I lose sleep over it though, so relax.
 
Another mystery, who is Simon Hurt? Is he Thomas Wayne still alive? John Mayhew? Joe Chill's son? The devil? Well, the simple answer would be none of the above. He's simply Dr. Simon Hurt, the guy who once performed isolation experiments on Batman.

Why would Hurt refer to The Joker as his "faithful servant"? Strikes me as odd. Joker serves no man. The Devil, on the other hand? Hmm..
 
Why would Hurt refer to The Joker as his "faithful servant"? Strikes me as odd. Joker serves no man. The Devil, on the other hand? Hmm..

I think it's due to two things. One is that the original isolation experiments Batman underwent were so he could better understand the Joker, so Hurt, in watching those experiments, not only believes he understands Batman, he also believes he understands the Joker as well and can deal with him (to his peril, no doubt). And two, Hurt is characteristically arrogant, believing himself to be superior, especially more than some pampered heir who dresses up in a mask and cape, and even more especially than some nutjob who dresses like a clown. Of course, his treatment of the Joker, believing he can control and manipulate him just like he's been doing with Batman will be his undoing, I imagine.
 
I think it's due to two things. One is that the original isolation experiments Batman underwent were so he could better understand the Joker, so Hurt, in watching those experiments, not only believes he understands Batman, he also believes he understands the Joker as well and can deal with him (to his peril, no doubt). And two, Hurt is characteristically arrogant, believing himself to be superior, especially more than some pampered heir who dresses up in a mask and cape, and even more especially than some nutjob who dresses like a clown. Of course, his treatment of the Joker, believing he can control and manipulate him just like he's been doing with Batman will be his undoing, I imagine.

Good theory, but Morrison earlier claimed that the true identity of Batman's terrible antagonist will be the biggest revelation in 70 years. Food for thought.
 
Well that wouldn't be very shocking now, would it?
 
nope not at all.

Er, I wasn't being sarcastic. It's discounted because it wouldn't be shocking now. It's been directly claimed by the character in the book, so "Yep, I wasn't lying!" isn't much a reveal, you know?
 
And I am saying thats how amazing Morrisons reveal is...not shocking at all
 
Dr. Hurt is probably Batman Jones, who found out after his Batman obsession died out that Batman didn't actually want him around to begin with. And now, this is how he enacts vengence. He isn't really Dr. Hurt from Robin Dies At Dawn. He just studied his papers meticulously, and from that, thinks he can control The Joker, but also figured out, to an extent, how Batman works. Hence the three Batmen. And to make matters worse, Batman Jones' parents are actually Satan worshipers, and his mother offered to bear Satan's child, and Batman Jones is actually the anti-christ, working out the Devil's plans to destroy the world. And only the Batman of issue #666 can save it.


:o:woot:
 
Good theory, but Morrison earlier claimed that the true identity of Batman's terrible antagonist will be the biggest revelation in 70 years. Food for thought.

I've thought of that as well because Morrison said it's also someone whose been there from the very beginning. Now if he's talking about the beginning of Batman as a character, then that would have to be Detective Comics #27, then the only possible candidates are Gordon and Bruce. Bruce's parents and Batman's origin didn't appear until Detective Comics #33, so techinically, Thomas Wayne wasn't there since the beginning.

Now, remember Jezebel told Bruce that he might be the Black Glove? Well, we all know now that she's part of the conspiracy and maybe the Black Glove herself, but what if she was cluing in him (and the readers) on part of the truth--that she, Hurt, and the Club of Villains were able to orchestrate their plan to destroy Batman because Batman himself told them how to do it?

Once again, it goes back to the isolation experiments. Maybe there was a part of Bruce, perhaps the part of him blamed him for the murder of his own parents, who resented Batman from having the life he deserved. Perhaps, there were times in which, thanks to Dr. Hurt's trigger word, Jezebel and Hury were able to talk to this "Bruce" and learn about how to defeat Batman. And of course, Bruce would have no memory of this. This would also explain why Bruce is attracted to Jezebel from the get go and why it seems like he's always known her--because he has met her before and, thanks to post hypnotic suggestions, was able to fall in love with her.

So the "shocking adversary" and the secret behind the Black Glove could very well be that Bruce, without his knowledge, was providing the villains with the knowledge on how to defeat himself. Granted, it's taking a story from "The Untold Legend of Batman" in which Batman subconsciously was trying to commit suicide after surviving a warehouse explosion.

Also, I think the missing page from the Black Dossier fits into this. How? I think Batman, sometime during those isolation experiments, became aware of this "Bruce" and so wrote down the knowledge of how to defeat him in those pages. Then, wanting to make sure no one found out in case the book should fall into the wrong hands, hid it inside the "Bat Radia" in the hopes that the Batman of Zur-en-arrh (who is suppose to be a countermeasure against psychological attack) would find it and use it just in case, hence all the talk about it being the "source of his power" and why Morrison gave it so much emphasis in the story.
 
I've thought of that as well because Morrison said it's also someone whose been there from the very beginning. Now if he's talking about the beginning of Batman as a character, then that would have to be Detective Comics #27, then the only possible candidates are Gordon and Bruce. Bruce's parents and Batman's origin didn't appear until Detective Comics #33, so techinically, Thomas Wayne wasn't there since the beginning.

Now, remember Jezebel told Bruce that he might be the Black Glove? Well, we all know now that she's part of the conspiracy and maybe the Black Glove herself, but what if she was cluing in him (and the readers) on part of the truth--that she, Hurt, and the Club of Villains were able to orchestrate their plan to destroy Batman because Batman himself told them how to do it?

Once again, it goes back to the isolation experiments. Maybe there was a part of Bruce, perhaps the part of him blamed him for the murder of his own parents, who resented Batman from having the life he deserved. Perhaps, there were times in which, thanks to Dr. Hurt's trigger word, Jezebel and Hury were able to talk to this "Bruce" and learn about how to defeat Batman. And of course, Bruce would have no memory of this. This would also explain why Bruce is attracted to Jezebel from the get go and why it seems like he's always known her--because he has met her before and, thanks to post hypnotic suggestions, was able to fall in love with her.

So the "shocking adversary" and the secret behind the Black Glove could very well be that Bruce, without his knowledge, was providing the villains with the knowledge on how to defeat himself. Granted, it's taking a story from "The Untold Legend of Batman" in which Batman subconsciously was trying to commit suicide after surviving a warehouse explosion.

Also, I think the missing page from the Black Dossier fits into this. How? I think Batman, sometime during those isolation experiments, became aware of this "Bruce" and so wrote down the knowledge of how to defeat him in those pages. Then, wanting to make sure no one found out in case the book should fall into the wrong hands, hid it inside the "Bat Radia" in the hopes that the Batman of Zur-en-arrh (who is suppose to be a countermeasure against psychological attack) would find it and use it just in case, hence all the talk about it being the "source of his power" and why Morrison gave it so much emphasis in the story.

Which I've been saying since August 1st.
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=14928131&postcount=291

R.I.P. seems to be following the same formula as the Untold Legend

Batman having a sort of breakdown before the main story starts.Batman being targeted by someone with personal info on Bats....

Batman questioning his own sanity.....his hallucinating ,Alfred reminiscing and talking to [a] Robin about Bruce, even the part where Alfred said he may never truly comprehend Batmans actions and capabilities is right out of Untold Legend.



FC0812520424-1.jpg
 
Dear God, Joker cut up his own tongue? That's just warped.
 
Given the crap Morrison has pulled in his previous work I would not be surprised at anything frankly.

I love how the Joker talks about it all "making sense" in the last few pages.

It's almost like Morrison is living through the insanities of the Joker.
 
Someone said it best when they said that "RIP isn't an arc by itself, but is actually just a continuation of Morrison's run. From Batman & Son to RIP, its all just one big arc". I went back to read some of Morrison's other Batman arcs, and its all connected.
 
I wonder if Robin wakes up and Morrison's whole run has been a dream.

****ing Dallas.
 
Someone said it best when they said that "RIP isn't an arc by itself, but is actually just a continuation of Morrison's run. From Batman & Son to RIP, its all just one big arc". I went back to read some of Morrison's other Batman arcs, and its all connected.
Yeah, but the problem being that Batman and Son was awful, same goes for the Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul, so where does that leave this new arc? It seems almost everything he does is a publicity stunt and when everything you do is just to be heard of then it just reeks of sloppy writing. I'll take Paul Dini's one shots, which don't have to change the entire DC universe to be great, over this any day.
 
Which I've been saying since August 1st.
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=14928131&postcount=291

R.I.P. seems to be following the same formula as the Untold Legend

Batman having a sort of breakdown before the main story starts.Batman being targeted by someone with personal info on Bats....

Batman questioning his own sanity.....his hallucinating ,Alfred reminiscing and talking to [a] Robin about Bruce, even the part where Alfred said he may never truly comprehend Batmans actions and capabilities is right out of Untold Legend.



FC0812520424-1.jpg

Don't forget that Thomas Wayne's "Bat-Man" costume is a crucial element in both stories as well, which I'm sure you noticed as well.
 
Don't forget that Thomas Wayne's "Bat-Man" costume is a crucial element in both stories as well, which I'm sure you noticed as well.

Yes I made note of it in my first post on this topic back on 8/1/08

Batman having a sort of breakdown before the main story starts.Batman being targeted by someone with personal info on Bats....

Batman questioning his own sanity.....his hallucinating

Alfred reminising and talking to [a] Robin about Bruce, even the part where Alfred said he may never truly comprehend Batmans actions and capabilities is right out of Untold Legend.

I think they even gave a hint.....they seemed to have focuse on Thomas Wayne's Batman suit and the guy in charge of the Black Glove looks like an older Bruce Wayne.

It could be Bruce himself with make up on to look older trying to destroy Batman himself just like in Untold Legend.

Those are my thoughts......tell me what you think.
 
What do you guys think of Hurt being Joe Chill? eh? eh?

Morrison established in issue 673 that Batman drove Joe Chill to suicide. But whether or not that was a hallucination has yet to be determined. Interesting theory if it is a hallucination.
 
Morrison established in issue 673 that Batman drove Joe Chill to suicide. But whether or not that was a hallucination has yet to be determined. Interesting theory if it is a hallucination.

Yeah that's why I mention it. That whole Joe Chill story seemed out of the blue. And I think it's much less far fethced than him being Thomas Wayne, who was established to be dead, what, about 75 years ago? Give or take.
 

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