Batman R.I.P.

[Cain]

Seriously I dropped this book right around the penultimate issue of the Club of Heroes arc. I just picked it back up for this arc yet I follow everything through just fine. I think the problem is people try to overthink this arc instead of just letting it flow on it's own pace and really enjoying it. Something tells me a lot of people are not used to Morisson but his writing has actually been fairly straightforward on this arc in comparison with a lot of his other work.

 

[jackshea]

morrison likes counterparts, in final crisis he wrote that, "these new gods, they come with evil gods." then here he had robin say, "remember the club of heroes? well there's a club of villains." i wonder if there's an evil morrison out there.

 

[Saint]

Morrison would probably say yes.

 

[CaptainClown]

morrison likes counterparts, in final crisis he wrote that, "these new gods, they come with evil gods." then here he had robin say, "remember the club of heroes? well there's a club of villains." i wonder if there's an evil morrison out there.

The Morrison we have now is the evil Morrison he killed the good Morrison after Skrull Kill Krew

 

[Nepenthes]

^ have you read Seaguy or New X-Men?



I'm surprised no ones mentioned that Charlie Caligula seemed to see Batmite as well. If he's NOT a hallucination...damn I don't even want to think about that possibility . That's would be more significant that the Batzea, Thomas Wayne or anything else Morrisons done to enrage and confound the so called batfans ha ha

I hope Harley Quinn still has a role in all this. She is the original red & black after all.






here's some art from the Tony Daniels blog

variant 679 cover

for some French comic magazine. I have to say I'm not a fan of Joker wearing that smock all the time. it's a little to Marlyn Manson

panel from 680

 

[Drz]

I can't see the pictures your trying to show, could you perhaps upload them on tinypic.com or sum please? =)

 

[squeekness]

I see them just fine and they look great.

 

[Drz]

Yeah i can see the Batman and Joker ones, but now just missing Harley Quinn. I like the the art tho. .D looks sweet.

EDIT: Wait i just misread and theres no Harley art, curse myself! :P

 

[Majic Walrus]

I just re-read the two robin issues and all of the Batman issues to date. I gotta say it seems obvious the direction Tim is taking is leading him towards being Batman. I saw another thread that indicated that there would be a new costume as well. Is that speculation about RIP or is it confirmed anywhere?

 

[Nepenthes]

^ here's your new 'Robin' costume...

Spoiler

also http://www.newsarama.com/preview_images/dcnew/nov08/2/rb_cv180.jpg

 

[Majic Walrus]

^ here's your new 'Robin' costume...

Spoiler

also http://www.newsarama.com/preview_images/dcnew/nov08/2/rb_cv180.jpg

Sweet. The [BLACKOUT]Kingdom Come[/BLACKOUT] costume. But will Tim be wearing this or will someone else? I was under the impression that Tim would be taking over as Batman.

I've heard that Tim would be Batman and Damien would be Robin [BLACKOUT] (Red Robin?)[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Nepenthes]

well yeah the second pic (the link) gives the impression that Tim is NOT the Red Robin. Jason is the most logical choice considering Countdown, even though he apparently gave it up. Dick i don't see going back to any form of 'Robin' even though it was originally him in Kingdom Come.

the way I see it now
Damien - Robin
Tim - Batman
Grayson - stays Nightwing
Jason - Red Robin

 

[jackshea]

^ agreed, did you notice how in final crisis, they don't say who bats is? does it take place after? b/c robin and nightwing are in issue 3

 

[Saint]

Tim won't be Batman. Skipping over Dick would be a mistake, and it simply doesn't feel like it's time for Tim to be Batman. Then, there's the age thing, obviously. He won't be [blackout]Red Robin[/blackout] either, as the second image Nepenthes indicates.

Spoiler

According to LITG, it looks like Dick will be Batman, the Nightwing book will be retitled "Red Robin," starring Jason, and Robin will be retitled "Batman and Robin."

As for new costumes, Tony Daniel has said that RIP required him to redesign the Batman andRobin costumes.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Jackshea, In Final Crisis they mention that Batman is "missing" I assume that it takes place during RIP.

Saint, I don't see Dick being Batman agian. I don't think he would WANT to and I really don't think he would want to be called Red Robin... Even if it shows him as that in Kingdom Come.

As for Tim being Batman I don't think "age" is an issue because really no one knows how old Batman is or Robin. If age were an issue than Dick wouldn't be Batman either. The appearance could be an issue but that could be easily modified through the costume to ensure that Tim and Bruce look the same.

Nepenthes, I think I agree with you except for Jason being Red Robin I'm not so sure of that just yet. Also has anyone thought about what's going to happen to Bruce Wayne (body or mind) at the end of this?

 

[Saint]

In Final Crisis they mention that Batman is "missing" I assume that it takes place during RIP.

No; the reason he's missing is because the New Gods kidnaphim in Final Crisis #2.

Also has anyone thought about what's going to happen to Bruce Wayne (body or mind) at the end of this?

I think he has to be completely removed, or else the book will still be about him, even with somebody else as Batman. Morrison has said repeatedly that this will be 'worse' than death, so I've considered that Batman will be left insane or catatonic, perhaps in Arkham. It could be that the weight of his life finally causes him to collapse mentally, or he can't cope with something that happens (or that he's forced to do).

If Dick (or whoever) as Batman is meant to be "permanent," it becomes difficult to convincingly remove Bruce from the picture without killing him. If he's too remain alive, he has to be completely incapable of being Batman, which means he needs to be crippled mentally or physically. Even so, if he's still in the book, people will always be expecting him to snap out of it and be Batman again in a year, so it will be difficult for such a thing to work. It may be best for him to be removed from the book completely, for a time. Part of me would like to see him in a Beyond-esque advisory role to Dick, but that would eliminate the possibility of a mental issue and require Bruce to be physically crippled, which is difficult because he's overcome that before.

Making this work is tricky, tricky stuff.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

^ agreed, did you notice how in final crisis, they don't say who bats is? does it take place after? b/c robin and nightwing are in issue 3

I remember hearing that Morrison did say that Final Crisis takes place after RIP.

 

[Nepenthes]

Tim won't be Batman. Skipping over Dick would be a mistake, and it simply doesn't feel like it's time for Tim to be Batman. Then, there's the age thing, obviously. He won't be [blackout]Red Robin[/blackout] either, as the second image Nepenthes indicates.

Spoiler

According to LITG, it looks like Dick will be Batman, the Nightwing book will be retitled "Red Robin," starring Jason, and Robin will be retitled "Batman and Robin."

As for new costumes, Tony Daniel has said that RIP required him to redesign the Batman andRobin costumes.

yeah it is a mistake strictly speaking but thats what make it interesting as a story idea, that Grayson takes the back seat again (Azrael being the first) and that Tim is that zealous he'll take up the mantle even if he knows he's probably not ready, maybe he sees no other option.

Also i was thinking of how a solicit said Tim and Damien team up to save Batman, and if Damien is the new Robin, then Tim...

I did forget about the LITG report though. I guess that's been correct so far. bummer

Bruce Wayne body and mind, i have no idea. Maybe he decides to refocus the mission by assuming a role similar to Jezebal or Ra's Al Gul, running a large network of organizations or activities with his resources, using his influence. Maybe he just decides to run away somewhere quiet.

 

[Majic Walrus]

No; the reason he's missing is because the New Gods kidnaphim in Final Crisis #2.

I stand corrected.

I think he has to be completely removed, or else the book will still be about him, even with somebody else as Batman. Morrison has said repeatedly that this will be 'worse' than death, so I've considered that Batman will be left insane or catatonic, perhaps in Arkham. It could be that the weight of his life finally causes him to collapse mentally, or he can't cope with something that happens (or that he's forced to do).

If Dick (or whoever) as Batman is meant to be "permanent," it becomes difficult to convincingly remove Bruce from the picture without killing him. If he's too remain alive, he has to be completely incapable of being Batman, which means he needs to be crippled mentally or physically. Even so, if he's still in the book, people will always be expecting him to snap out of it and be Batman again in a year, so it will be difficult for such a thing to work. It may be best for him to be removed from the book completely, for a time. Part of me would like to see him in a Beyond-esque advisory role to Dick, but that would eliminate the possibility of a mental issue and require Bruce to be physically crippled, which is difficult because he's overcome that before.

Making this work is tricky, tricky stuff.

I agree here as well. I assume that it's meant to be "permanent" (unlike the Knightfall run) but I don't think they'll kill Bruce entirely because that would make his inevitable return a bit difficult.

I can see Dick and Tim finding him and changing his information and getting him into a swanky Asylum (maybe Arkham but I don't know) and then keeping the whole thing very much "in the family".

 

[Saint]

Saint, I don't see Dick being Batman agian. I don't think he would WANT to

If the circumstances are right, he'd do it. If Bruce was taken out and nobody else opted to be Batman, I believe Dick would do it in a heartbeat. Letting Batman die would be like letting Bruce die. Furthermore, if someone else chose to be Batman, it would have to be the right person for Dick to accept it. If it was Jason, I think Dick would probably want to shut him down and take the cowl. If it was Tim, Dick might accept it, but even that is iffy. It was once suggested that the only thing Dick would hate more than being Batman is watching somebody else do it, and I think there might be something to that.

As for Tim being Batman I don't think "age" is an issue because really no one knows how old Batman is or Robin.

We know Robin is a teenager, and that's enough.

If age were an issue than Dick wouldn't be Batman either.

Why not? Dick is 22-25, the same age Bruce was when he started.

Amusingly, Jason is the only one who has a solid psychological reason to become Batman: as I've said before, he's got something to prove. He's been stuck in this angry, violent loop--he feels cast aside, and he's lashing out. If something happened to Bruce, it might snap Jason out of that, to the point where he would try to become Batman in order to prove to himself (and to Bruce) that he isn't just a murderer, that he can be the kind of hero Bruce wanted him to be.

Tim is the only one with the drive to be Batman--the only one who wants that sort of life. Unfortunately, he's just not prepared. He's not in that place--not only in terms of his age, but in terms of his ability.

Dick is the only one who is prepared to be Batman, but is also the one with the least reason to be: he's got nothing to prove, and he doesn't want that life. Personally, I find Dick and Jason to be the most interesting choices--Jason because he'd be using the Batman identity to try and better himself, and Dick because he'd be trying to prevent the darker qualities of the Batman identity from affecting him.

I think both Jason and Dick would make excellent, interesting Batmen. Tim is presently the least interesting choice, in my opinion.

 

[Majic Walrus]

yeah it is a mistake strictly speaking but thats what make it interesting as a story idea, that Grayson takes the back seat again (Azrael being the first) and that Tim is that zealous he'll take up the mantle even if he knows he's probably not ready, maybe he sees no other option.

Also i was thinking of how a solicit said Tim and Damien team up to save Batman, and if Damien is the new Robin, then Tim...

I did forget about the LITG report though. I guess that's been correct so far. bummer

Bruce Wayne body and mind, i have no idea. Maybe he decides to refocus the mission by assuming a role similar to Jezebal or Ra's Al Gul, running a large network of organizations or activities with his resources, using his influence. Maybe he just decides to run away somewhere quiet.

You made me think of something interesting. We're all assuming that Bruce is UNABLE to assume the mantle after RIP, but what if he's just unwilling? He refuses to continue being Batman because of this whole ordeal and let's someone else take over.

Something like the Batman Beyond TV series.

 

[Saint]

I don't think they'll kill Bruce entirely because that would make his inevitable return a bit difficult.

That's the question, though: do we want his comeback to be inevitable? This is what bothers me about legacy heroes: somebody always gets shafted when the old guy comes back from the dead. If Bruce's "retirement" is done well enough, I can get onboard with Dick as Batman. Now, suppose Dick is Batman for twenty years, and then they say decide it should be Bruce again. Dick, who we've become invested in for years, is suddenly A) demoted, or B) killed off. I don't want that.

I think if you're going to make Dick Batman, it has to be for keeps. Even though I'm terrified of the idea that I'd never see Bruce as Batman again, I can't see it working any other way. I mean, you can have three Green Lanterns or three Flashes at the same time, so it's not a problem that Hal Jordan and Barry Allen are back, but would that work for batman? Could you have two Batmen at the same time? It seems like Dick would have to be demoted or killed when bruce comes back, and that's likely a bad thing.

 

[Majic Walrus]

If the circumstances are right, he'd do it. If Bruce was taken out and nobody else opted to be Batman, I believe Dick would do it in a heartbeat. Letting Batman die would be like letting Bruce die. Furthermore, if someone else chose to be Batman, it would have to be the right person for Dick to accept it. If it was Jason, I think Dick would probably want to shut him down and take the cowl. If it was Tim, Dick might accept it, but even that is iffy. It was once suggested that the only thing Dick would hate more than being Batman is watching somebody else do it, and I think there might be something to that.

I think that Dick's distanced himself from the cowl which is why he doesn't mind Robin being Robin. Theoretically it's Robin who should take Batman's place, however I can see Dick taking over of Jason tries to do the Batman thing.

We know Robin is a teenager, and that's enough.

Why not? Dick is 22-25, the same age Bruce was when he started.

But Bruce is obviously not 22-25 now so it would be strange that Batman gets younger all of the sudden. Unless of course we are saying that his appearance could be altered which could mean it's anyone's game.

Amusingly, Jason is the only one who has a solid psychological reason to become Batman: as I've said before, he's got something to prove. He's been stuck in this angry, violent loop--he feels cast aside, and he's lashing out. If something happened to Bruce, it might snap Jason out of that, to the point where he would try to become Batman in order to prove to himself (and to Bruce) that he isn't just a murderer, that he can be the kind of hero Bruce wanted him to be.

Tim is the only one with the drive to be Batman--the only one who wants that sort of life. Unfortunately, he's just not prepared. He's not in that place--not only in terms of his age, but in terms of his ability.

Dick is the only one who is prepared to be Batman, but is also the one with the least reason to be: he's got nothing to prove, and he doesn't want that life. Personally, I find Dick and Jason to be the most interesting choices--Jason because he'd be using the Batman identity to try and better himself, and Dick because he'd be trying to prevent the darker qualities of the Batman identity from affecting him.

I think both Jason and Dick would make excellent, interesting Batmen. Tim is presently the least interesting choice, in my opinion.

I like your point about Jason and I think it would be really cool to see a Dick and Jason face off for the cowl. But the reason I want to see Tim try on Batman's shoes is because he isn't prepared. He's not as skilled as Batman physically or ready for the "big game" mentally.

Like Spoiler mentioned in Robin 176 he's working on his tough. I think what's so great about Tim's drive to be Batman is that he wants it. I think we can see that he's almost hoping that Batman is insane so he'll have to take him out. So he'll have to be able to show his own and so he'll have to take it to the next level.

I can sense that Tim is tired of being the second banana to Dick and Bruce and sometimes even Jason.

That's the question, though: do we want his comeback to be inevitable? This is what bothers me about legacy heroes: somebody always gets shafted when the old guy comes back from the dead. If Bruce's "retirement" is done well enough, I can get onboard with Dick as Batman. Now, suppose Dick is Batman for twenty years, and then they say decide it should be Bruce again. Dick, who we've become invested in for years, is suddenly A) demoted, or B) killed off. I don't want that.

I think if you're going to make Dick Batman, it has to be for keeps. Even though I'm terrified of the idea that I'd never see Bruce as Batman again, I can't see it working any other way. I mean, you can have three Green Lanterns or three Flashes at the same time, so it's not a problem that Hal Jordan and Barry Allen are back, but would that work for batman? Could you have two Batmen at the same time? It seems like Dick would have to be demoted or killed when bruce comes back, and that's likely a bad thing.

Well I don't think that Batman should be a legacy character, just like Superman or Wonder Woman. I don't like the idea of Batman not being Bruce. Legacy characters have the same skills or abilities as the previous people of their name. It's easy to have a Flash or a Green Lantern legacy but it's very difficult to have someone who is as unique as Batman be someone else altogether.

I'm afraid of seeing Dick or Tim or anyone else in the suit and trying to act just like Bruce does. That would ruin the whole idea for me.

I also don't like the idea of someone getting demoted or forgotten. As much as I love Ollie Queen as the Green Arrow, I really got to know Connor. And as much as I like Roy as Arsenal when he started calling himself Red Arrow I just didn't like it as much.

I think either way we're not going to love what happens. I don't think we're going to be waiting 20 years to see Bruce as Batman and I wouldn't bank on anyone of the well known characters getting offed just yet either.

 

[Saint]

yeah it is a mistake strictly speaking but thats what make it interesting as a story idea, that Grayson takes the back seat again (Azrael being the first) and that Tim is that zealous he'll take up the mantle even if he knows he's probably not ready, maybe he sees no other option.

I would find it more interesting to see Dick become Batman and wrestle with the part of himself that hates it, and the part of himself that wants it.

Bruce Wayne body and mind, i have no idea. Maybe he decides to refocus the mission by assuming a role similar to Jezebal or Ra's Al Gul, running a large network of organizations or activities with his resources, using his influence. Maybe he just decides to run away somewhere quiet.

How Bruce ends up no longer being batman is the most important part of this story. If it doesn't work, no one will accept it, and Dick (or whoever) will be doomed right from the beginning. It's very thin ice. If Bruce's comes off looking weak, or if decisions he makes don't seem true to the character, it's all over. As Brubaker's Captain America has demonstrated. he doesn't necessarily have to go out in a blaze of glory (though it would be preferable), but it has to be a good ending.

As I've said before, Brubaker's captain America should be the hero replacement handbook. Bucky's transition to Captain America has been excellent, and I look forward to reading about him for years to come. If they could pull that off with Dick, that would be great.

 

[Saint]

Something like the Batman Beyond TV series.

Indeed. I always thought the way they sold his retirement worked well.