Batman R.I.P.

[Saint]

But Bruce is obviously not 22-25 now so it would be strange that Batman gets younger all of the sudden. Unless of course we are saying that his appearance could be altered which could mean it's anyone's game.

It's not a matter of looking like Bruce, it's a matter of being physically and mentally prepared to be Batman. Tim isn't quite there. He's still a boy, and that impedes his readiness considerably.

That and, well, it would just be weird to see a teenage Batman. Unpleasantly so.

I think we can see that he's almost hoping that Batman is insane so he'll have to take him out. So he'll have to be able to show his own and so he'll have to take it to the next level.

Frankly, I didn't buy that at all. Tim has always wanted to be the best, but as he's said in the past, he doesn't need to be Batman to do that.

 

[Majic Walrus]

It's not a matter of looking like Bruce, it's a matter of being physically and mentally prepared to be Batman. Tim isn't quite there. He's still a boy, and that impedes his readiness considerably.

That and, well, it would just be weird to see a teenage Batman. Unpleasantly so.


Frankly, I didn't buy that at all. Tim has always wanted to be the best, but as he's said in the past, he doesn't need to be Batman to do that.

Tim has always wanted to be the best and he doesn't need Batman to do that, but I think that he's headstrong and eager to take over in that role. I am starting to think it would be weird to see a teenage Batman but then again I think it would be weird to see anyeone but Bruce as Batman.

I think that having a mentally unprepared Batman would be better than having Dick become a Bat-clone.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

My guess is that Bruce will definately live after this, and we've already seen his "death."

Batman went through what was likely hours of torture, while having weapons-grade drugs being pumped into his system. This torture was so bad that Bruce Wayne, mentally, switched off. No Bruce--no Batman. The only thing left is the back-up personality, Zurr-En-Arrh. Wouldn't becoming a withdrawing, psychopathic, multi-colored hardass like Zurr-En-Arrh be a "fate worse then death?"

 

[Nepenthes]

It was once suggested that the only thing Dick would hate more than being Batman is watching somebody else do it, and I think there might be something to that.

Amusingly, Jason is the only one who has a solid psychological reason to become Batman: as I've said before, he's got something to prove. He's been stuck in this angry, violent loop--he feels cast aside, and he's lashing out. If something happened to Bruce, it might snap Jason out of that, to the point where he would try to become Batman in order to prove to himself (and to Bruce) that he isn't just a murderer, that he can be the kind of hero Bruce wanted him to be.

Tim is the only one with the drive to be Batman--the only one who wants that sort of life. Unfortunately, he's just not prepared. He's not in that place--not only in terms of his age, but in terms of his ability.

Dick is the only one who is prepared to be Batman, but is also the one with the least reason to be: he's got nothing to prove, and he doesn't want that life. Personally, I find Dick and Jason to be the most interesting choices--Jason because he'd be using the Batman identity to try and better himself, and Dick because he'd be trying to prevent the darker qualities of the Batman identity from affecting him.

I think both Jason and Dick would make excellent, interesting Batmen. Tim is presently the least interesting choice, in my opinion.

I would find it more interesting to see Dick become Batman and wrestle with the part of himself that hates it, and the part of himself that wants it.

yeah these would all make really cool angles.


About the retirement, one of the coolest things about RIP is it confronts what has always been an interesting conceit of the batman concept, the idea that Bruce thinks the best way to improve the world is to go on this crazy boys crusade beating up muggers and inciting squabbles with other developmentally challenged weirdos. As usual with Morrison it works on a meta-fictional level - both in the concept of batman as a character, and by now having being posed within the mythology itself and building for the last few decades. The success and acceptance of Bruce's retirement' will depend on addressing this question, it's what RIP is entirely based on to me.

The same meta-commentary works in treating the silver age stories as hallucinations. We the readers remember these visions and tales, but they're not 'real'. They happened, but they don't count. They hardly make sense in light of the 'real world', they're shadows and projections from another reality that belongs somewhere in the past and off to the side. In Batman recalling his own fictional history it makes sense that as hallucinations they're 'made up' by himself, i.e. fictional YET (and most importantly) with an undeniable bearing on the true and present reality. Morrison decided to acknowledge that just because we brush aside pre-crisis timeliness, it doesn't mean their impacts and lineage to the current books are erased. Using the metaphor of hallucinations for abandoned continuity is just so fitting and right.

 

[CaptainClown]

Ok what I like so far. Batman has a back up personality. What I don't like is that this story just seems so uninteresting. I am glad people in here are enjoying it, I am just enjoying looking at the covers. The black glove feels like a really really really really big joke that I can't take serious as a threat. It reminds me of a serious take on an old Adam West episode.

For Dr. Hurts voice I always imagine Dr. Orpheus speaking (from venture bros.) I can't really take any of it seriously. Again hopefully it will peak my interest but until then meh.

 

[CaptainClown]

also it is probably going to end up Bruce Wayne is mentally going to die and this new Bruce Wayne/ Batman will emerge like him having amnesia or something lame like that. (Jason Bourne but batman)

 

[Majic Walrus]

My guess is that Bruce will definately live after this, and we've already seen his "death."

Batman went through what was likely hours of torture, while having weapons-grade drugs being pumped into his system. This torture was so bad that Bruce Wayne, mentally, switched off. No Bruce--no Batman. The only thing left is the back-up personality, Zurr-En-Arrh. Wouldn't becoming a withdrawing, psychopathic, multi-colored hardass like Zurr-En-Arrh be a "fate worse then death?"

Hey that leaves me wondering... Would it be possible to see someone like Dick or Tim take the Batman cowl but still leave Bruce (or the lack thereof) running around as Zurr-En-Arrh? And by running around I just mean to say that there's obvious mention that Bruce is neither dead nor disabled just living out his days as ZEA? That leaves a lot of room to bring back Bruce as Batman during the next crisis (Personally I'm hoping for Totally Final Crisis as the name. )

 

[Dirt Like Me]

I think that having a mentally unprepared Batman would be better than having Dick become a Bat-clone.

If Bruce is truly out of the picture and Dick is allowed to put his own stamp on the Batman persona it could be pretty interesting: new costume, more acrobatic fighting, better people skills, etc.

They key thing is (as Saint has said) that they'd have to establish that Dick isn't just keeping the seat warm while Bruce is out of commission. The audience would really have to believe that Dick as Batman is an end in and of itself, and not just a means to some Bruce resurgence down the road. I think this is the only way that Dick's changes to the persona could really take root.

As for how to put Bruce out of commission, without killing him? That's a tough line to toe. If he's in Gotham City, he'd still overshadow his successor to some extent. I think it might be alright if went back to Nanda Parbat for more meditation and whatnot--say that he's going there for seven years of isolation and centering. Seven years in comic time could be twenty of real time.

 

[Majic Walrus]

If Bruce is truly out of the picture and Dick is allowed to put his own stamp on the Batman persona it could be pretty interesting: new costume, more acrobatic fighting, better people skills, etc.

They key thing is (as Saint has said) that they'd have to establish that Dick isn't just keeping the seat warm while Bruce is out of commission. The audience would really have to believe that Dick as Batman is an end in and of itself, and not just a means to some Bruce resurgence down the road. I think this is the only way that Dick's changes to the persona could really take root.

As for how to put Bruce out of commission, without killing him? That's a tough line to toe. If he's in Gotham City, he'd still overshadow his successor to some extent. I think it might be alright if went back to Nanda Parbat for more meditation and whatnot--say that he's going there for seven years of isolation and centering. Seven years in comic time could be twenty of real time.

Yeah but if the reader assumes that Bruce can return then they'll always feel like Dick's just keeping the seat warm for Bruce. Honestly I can't think of anyway Morrison could do this short of actually killing Bruce Wayne dead.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

Yeah but if the reader assumes that Bruce can return then they'll always feel like Dick's just keeping the seat warm for Bruce. Honestly I can't think of anyway Morrison could do this short of actually killing Bruce Wayne dead.

I agree. It would/will be very difficult to pull off. But even if Bruce were killed off people would just be waiting for his resurrection, which would undermine everything anyway. No heroes ever stay dead in comics, so it's pretty much inevitable that Bruce will be back at some point.

 

[Majic Walrus]

I agree. It would/will be very difficult to pull off. But even if Bruce were killed off people would just be waiting for his resurrection, which would undermine everything anyway. No heroes ever stay dead in comics, so it's pretty much inevitable that Bruce will be back at some point.

You're right. Which I think is going to be the downfall of the RIP story.

 

[Saint]

If Bruce is truly out of the picture and Dick is allowed to put his own stamp on the Batman persona it could be pretty interesting: new costume, more acrobatic fighting, better people skills, etc.

They key thing is (as Saint has said) that they'd have to establish that Dick isn't just keeping the seat warm while Bruce is out of commission. The audience would really have to believe that Dick as Batman is an end in and of itself, and not just a means to some Bruce resurgence down the road. I think this is the only way that Dick's changes to the persona could really take root.

As for how to put Bruce out of commission, without killing him? That's a tough line to toe. If he's in Gotham City, he'd still overshadow his successor to some extent. I think it might be alright if went back to Nanda Parbat for more meditation and whatnot--say that he's going there for seven years of isolation and centering. Seven years in comic time could be twenty of real time.

Suppose Bruce is mentally crippled, and they send him the Nanda Parbat to recover. If his recovery is painted as unlikely, then it would be almost like sending him to a retirement home. It could be potentially convincing that Bruce is out of the picture. Then, in a couple of years, have a story where Dick visits the recovered Bruce. Take the time where he's been out of the picture to (finally) age him--not severely, but enough that his hair is graying. Now, with Dick as Batman, perhaps Bruce is content to live out his days in Nanda Parbat. Or, if not, he comes home to aid Dick in an advisory role. Regardless, he no longer feels it necessary to be Batman, both for his own sake and for Dick, who has at this time become comfortable as Batman--and for Bruce to take back the cowl would mean taking something away from Dick.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Suppose Bruce is mentally crippled, and they send him the Nanda Parbat to recover. If his recovery is painted as unlikely, then it would be almost like sending him to a retirement home. It could be potentially convincing that Bruce is out of the picture. Then, in a couple of years, have a story where Dick visits the recovered Bruce. Take the time where he's been out of the picture to (finally) age him--not severely, but enough that his hair is graying. Now, with Dick as Batman, perhaps Bruce is content to live out his days in Nanda Parbat. Or, if not, he comes home to aid Dick in an advisory role. Regardless, he no longer feels it necessary to be Batman, both for his own sake and for Dick, who has at this time become comfortable as Batman--and for Bruce to take back the cowl would mean taking something away from Dick.

That would actually not be bad. Are we talking two comic years or two actual years?

Either way I think it would benefit the story to have Bruce in an advisory role.

 

[Saint]

That would actually not be bad. Are we talking two comic years or two actual years?

Either way I think it would benefit the story to have Bruce in an advisory role.

Well, I think two years in actual time is ideal, because after two years it becomes hard to plan this sort of thing, I imagine. However, it also has to be long enough in comic-time to age Bruce a little, so it might be best to leave the comic-time ambiguous--one year at minimum. It would be better to say two years in comic time have passed, but that would be tricky.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

Suppose Bruce is mentally crippled, and they send him the Nanda Parbat to recover. If his recovery is painted as unlikely, then it would be almost like sending him to a retirement home. It could be potentially convincing that Bruce is out of the picture. Then, in a couple of years, have a story where Dick visits the recovered Bruce. Take the time where he's been out of the picture to (finally) age him--not severely, but enough that his hair is graying. Now, with Dick as Batman, perhaps Bruce is content to live out his days in Nanda Parbat. Or, if not, he comes home to aid Dick in an advisory role. Regardless, he no longer feels it necessary to be Batman, both for his own sake and for Dick, who has at this time become comfortable as Batman--and for Bruce to take back the cowl would mean taking something away from Dick.

It could definitely work. Bruce is pretty screwed-up mentally right now (and will be even more so if it turns out that Dr. Hurt is Thomas Wayne and Alfred is his father--which I hope isn't the case). Walking away from being Batman might not be too drastic of a step. If they wanted to, they could explain that the years of having the 'Zurr En Arrh' trigger in his head will take at least as long to undo.

But I think they really need to tread lightly if they bring Bruce back as a Beyond-type of advisor. If he's feeling well enough to help, people might start pining for a comeback. I'd prefer the occasional postcard to Dick and Tim, a flashback here and there, and (maybe) a visit from Superman in a few years. That way we'd know Bruce is alive, but Dick would still be free to be his own Batman.

 

[maninthechair]

Suppose Bruce is mentally crippled, and they send him the Nanda Parbat to recover. If his recovery is painted as unlikely, then it would be almost like sending him to a retirement home. It could be potentially convincing that Bruce is out of the picture. Then, in a couple of years, have a story where Dick visits the recovered Bruce. Take the time where he's been out of the picture to (finally) age him--not severely, but enough that his hair is graying. Now, with Dick as Batman, perhaps Bruce is content to live out his days in Nanda Parbat. Or, if not, he comes home to aid Dick in an advisory role. Regardless, he no longer feels it necessary to be Batman, both for his own sake and for Dick, who has at this time become comfortable as Batman--and for Bruce to take back the cowl would mean taking something away from Dick.

I think you have a great idea there but hope they don't do that. Personally there is only one Batman in my opinion and that is Bruce Wayne. Plus by doing that they are eliminating all potential for further development of Nightwing. That's just my feelings though... Your idea is great regardless.

 

[Saint]

I don't understand how it eliminates Dick's development. It is a development, and it moves him into his next stage of development.

 

[Majic Walrus]

I think you have a great idea there but hope they don't do that. Personally there is only one Batman in my opinion and that is Bruce Wayne. Plus by doing that they are eliminating all potential for further development of Nightwing. That's just my feelings though... Your idea is great regardless.

I don't understand how it eliminates Dick's development. It is a development, and it moves him into his next stage of development.

Well I can see how they are eliminating Nightwing's development as they would have to recast Nightwing or eliminate the character altogether. Either way Batman and Nightwing are different with different rouges and different responsibilities. You can't have Dick do both and I don't see anyone taking over as Nightwing.

Unless...

Dick takes over the cowl as Batman for a short period of time, he agrees with Bruce who leaves for his new self-discovery (he does this alot). Tim continues to be Robin working along side Dick as Batman. Tim isn't too keen on Bruce leaving even if it is temporary.

Meanwhile Jason Todd starts going around as Nightwing with his own brand of justice. Dick and Tim will have to stop this obviously so they will attempt to get Jason in-line as Nightwing. A few months pass and Dick and Tim are both questioning when Bruce will be back. Bruce replies to a message sent and explains that Dick is doing a great job as Batman and that he won't be picking up the mantle again.

This way we leave the door open for Bruce to come back (when something major happens) but we also have Bruce's blessing on Dick being Batman and that will allow us as readers to get to know Dick.

 

[Saint]

Well I can see how they are eliminating Nightwing's development as they would have to recast Nightwing or eliminate the character altogether.

Nightwing doesn't develop, because Nightwing is just a mask. Dick develops and will continue to do so, regardless.

Either way Batman and Nightwing are different with different rouges and different responsibilities. You can't have Dick do both and I don't see anyone taking over as Nightwing.

Nobody else needs to be Nightwing. There's nothing Nightwing does that Dick can't do as Batman.

 

[CaptainClown]

Ok I honestly stand by my theory. Bruce Wayne is dead (mentally) and the person replacing Bruce Wayne is Batman (mentally) so you are going to get a whole reverse comics of Batman trying to be Bruce Wayne possibly. That is what I think it is.

 

[The Guard]

Bruce Wayne needs to become The Spectre.

 

[UA-Archangel]

Forgive me, but there are just too many posts to read and make sense.

As of the latest issue, what is this series about?

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Ok I honestly stand by my theory. Bruce Wayne is dead (mentally) and the person replacing Bruce Wayne is Batman (mentally) so you are going to get a whole reverse comics of Batman trying to be Bruce Wayne possibly. That is what I think it is.

Isn't that how most writers that has touched the character in recent years think anyway?

 

[jackshea]

jason hasn't even shown up in morrison's run, so i doubt that the outcome would rely on him. i bet dick is batman, damien said so in #666, there were also 2 batsuits in his memorial glass thing.

 

[CaptainClown]

Isn't that how most writers that has touched the character in recent years think anyway?

Not really like how this is going to be presented. This Batman character would be without social skills and basically be Jason Bourne. Skilled but without knowledge of his former self. So Batman becoming Bruce Wayne then Bruce Wayne becoming Batman. While the two entities have been separate they both have been equal now if one dies then the other takes over and has to compensate for it.