Batman R.I.P.

[Saint]

The part it's playing is misdirection.

 

[MasterOgami]

The part it's playing is misdirection.

Misdirection as in something like a throwaway bit tossed into the mix early on to have us all barking up the wrong tree? Its too big an accusation to not make its way back to Bruce and create some sort of reaction, regardless of its veracity.

 

[Oddzball]

I thought as much, Morrison rarely fails to deliver on a truly random an ridiculous (not in a good way) Batman story. I don't want to sound like a petty Morrison hater, but I just don't think he understands Batman. A lot of his other work is brilliant, but he just has awful characterisation in the Batverse. The Al Ghuls are beyond repair and totally screwed as characters now, as is Son of the demon which was a great Talia/Bruce love story.

And like you say: International League of Batmen

Morrison got away with BatGod stuff in JLA simply by having the rest of the League there to eat up story and page space. When he focuses exclusively on Batman he loses it.

 

[Saint]

Misdirection as in something like a throwaway bit tossed into the mix early on to have us all barking up the wrong tree? Its too big an accusation to not make its way back to Bruce and create some sort of reaction, regardless of its veracity.

Of course it's going to cause a reaction. That doesn't preclude it from being misdirection. Nor does it's placement in the work or the frequency of it's repetition. Incidentally, it was a "throwaway bit tossed in to the mix early on."

 

[PrincessBoss]

The USA Today thing is meaningless. The whole thing could be speculation, journalists make things up for a living and i doubt that they would be privy to such information anyway. It could be sheer guess-work, and even if it isn't it still doesn't tell us anything we haven't already worked out for ourselves.

 

[Saint]

The tone of the piece does not suggest "guesswork," nor does the inclusion of comments from Neil Gaiman. DC probably took a page from Marvel's book and volunteered the information to USAToday--the same way Marvel exposed the unmasking of Spider-Man and the death of Captain America to people outside the core fanbase.

 

[javi1024]

i just wonder how long it will take DC to retcon everything we are talking about with another crossover.

 

[PrincessBoss]

The tone of the piece does not suggest "guesswork," nor does the inclusion of comments from Neil Gaiman.

Precisely, it's a journalistic trick to make the piece sound informed when the writer could well know as much as we do. And, after all, what does this piece tell you that you didn't already know? We all know that Batman's coming to an end somehow and most people think that Bruce won't die, so it really has no surprises. I'd already guessed that [SPOILER!] he was retiring anyway.

 

[Motown Marvel]

do people hate this story because they actually believe to be bad storytelling, or because they're just pissed about the ramifications it may have on the batman universe? (i.e. bruce no longer being batman).

i still just dont get the hate for morrisons batman run.

 

[[A]]

do people hate this story because they actually believe to be bad storytelling, or because they're just pissed about the ramifications it may have on the batman universe? (i.e. bruce no longer being batman).

i still just dont get the hate for morrisons batman run.

People don't like changes.

 

[Motown Marvel]

^^yeah, i generally think thats why most people dont like the series, which is the wrong reason to not like it.

 

[javi1024]

do people hate this story because they actually believe to be bad storytelling, or because they're just pissed about the ramifications it may have on the batman universe? (i.e. bruce no longer being batman).

i still just dont get the hate for morrisons batman run.

for me it's more Morrison's storytelling than whatever change is happening to the character. true i'm not excited about Batman dying/retiring/changing or whatever they're planning to do (especially since i already went through this crap with Spider-Man last year), but like i've posted earlier the only thing i've enjoyed about his run is when they're dealing with the 3 ghosts of batman.
-the first reintroduces Damian (ok fine), he beats the crap out of Robin and wants to take his place (pretty nice), and Batman fights ninja man-bats (....what).
-after that freak story he comes back and gives us mini novel with horrible 3D art and an "improved" Joker that looks like the offsprings of Marilyn Manson and Michael Jackson.
-then we get the first real look into the Ghosts (very cool), and its interrupted by jumping to the future where Damian of all people is the new Batman (....no).
-then even farther sidetracked we go to (i think) Europe and meet some International League of Second-Rate Silver-Age Wanna-Be Batmen (stupid).
-then we get the Resurrection of Ra's and that was just a pointless story
-FINALLY we're back to the Ghosts again

now we're at RIP, one issue away from the end and we're just now getting a handle on the story itself, but we still have no idea how any of this is connected. i have read 'Batman' as my exclusive bat-title ever since i started with Hush. mainly because of money reasons, but i enjoyed what i had and i didn't have a reason to think otherwise. but ever since Morrison took over i haven't really cared about what he was doing and after hearing what a great job Dini has been doing on 'Detective' and reading Heart of Hush i have been seriously considering switching books. i felt the same way after i read his run on X-Men. he had a lot of good ideas but i hated what he did to my favorite characters. i'm not saying he's a bad writer, i just feel if he was writing with his own creations instead of trying to "revolutionize" the people i already love i'd probably love him too.

 

[Saint]

-the first reintroduces Damian (ok fine), he beats the crap out of Robin and wants to take his place (pretty nice), and Batman fights ninja man-bats (....what).

I don't understand the problem with Ninja Man Bats. Their appearance made sense. Why wouldn't Talia want to make an army of super flying assassins?

-after that freak story he comes back and gives us mini novel with horrible 3D art and an "improved" Joker that looks like the offsprings of Marilyn Manson and Michael Jackson.

Not sure how the horrible art is Morrison's responsibility. The issue was solid, regardless.

-then even farther sidetracked we go to (i think) Europe and meet some International League of Second-Rate Silver-Age Wanna-Be Batmen (stupid).

Sidetracked? That was the introduction of the Black Glove. How is that a sidetrack?

then we get the Resurrection of Ra's and that was just a pointless story

Which, as i said earlier, I suspect was an editorial-orchestrated event.

 

[javi1024]

I don't understand the problem with Ninja Man Bats. Their appearance made sense. Why wouldn't Talia want to make an army of super flying assassins?


Not sure how the horrible art is Morrison's responsibility. The issue was solid, regardless.


Sidetracked? That was the introduction of the Black Glove. How is that a sidetrack?


Which, as i said earlier, I suspect was an editorial-orchestrated event.

i just felt ninja-bats were a little cheesy and little too 'silver-age'. but regardless i thought that story was enjoyable. the main reason i read comics is because of beautiful art, so when i got a novel it was a big disappointment- especially when we just came from that crappy Grotesque story and i saw Kubert's cover for the next issue. and i didn't enjoy that Joker story at all so crappy art only made it worse. yes, the League story introduced Black Glove but i didn't care for the story at all and found it very difficult to read because of the artist's panels. not to mention it went right in between the Ghosts which just started was already interrupted by issue 666, and thats the only part that has interested me.

 

[Saint]

i just felt ninja-bats were a little cheesy and little too 'silver-age'.

I believe that was the idea.

the main reason i read comics is because of beautiful art, so when i got a novel it was a big disappointment

Clearly you and I have fundamentally distinct ideas about the hierarchy of importance in comics, then.

 

[javi1024]

Clearly you and I have fundamentally distinct ideas about the hierarchy of importance in comics, then.

well yea since the difference between a novel and a comic is pictures that help move the story forward. i can read a book with art i don't like but it takes away from my enjoyment.

 

[Motown Marvel]

-the first reintroduces Damian (ok fine), he beats the crap out of Robin and wants to take his place (pretty nice), and Batman fights ninja man-bats (....what).

i thought the ninja man-bats were fun. sure, it was a giddy silver age thing with a cheez factor...but morrison made it work in a serious story, and i think things like that are fun. so i enjoyed it. it was a good story.

-after that freak story he comes back and gives us mini novel with horrible 3D art and an "improved" Joker that looks like the offsprings of Marilyn Manson and Michael Jackson.

i agree the art was horrible in that issue. and to be honest, i never even got around to reading the issue, i was just too busy at the time. maybe i should go back and check it out. as for the manson/jackson joker...i dont really like how tony daniels draws him, either. but so far, i see little flaw in the joker's characterization itself.

-then we get the first real look into the Ghosts (very cool), and its interrupted by jumping to the future where Damian of all people is the new Batman (....no).

i find it odd that people complain so much about the future damien/batman/devil story. its clearly a story that takes place int he far future that we'll never see come to pass in the comics. nor i do see how its such a horrible idea that long after this generation of batman characters pass, damien ends up in the mantle using it for his own sadistic purposes. but seeing as this is something that will never affect continuity, its nothing to make an issue of.

-then even farther sidetracked we go to (i think) Europe and meet some International League of Second-Rate Silver-Age Wanna-Be Batmen (stupid).

another giddy silver-age influenced story that morrison made work, in my opinion. it took ridiculous cheeziness from past batman continuity and made it work in today's comics. i thought it was a good story and also fun.

-then we get the Resurrection of Ra's and that was just a pointless story

this story did what it intended to do. ressurected ra's. it wasnt morrisons story. it seemed like a DC mandate handed down to the numerous creators currently working on the bat-books at the time. overall it was meh...but morrison did what he was told to do. it happens.

-FINALLY we're back to the Ghosts again

now we're at RIP, one issue away from the end and we're just now getting a handle on the story itself, but we still have no idea how any of this is connected. i have read 'Batman' as my exclusive bat-title ever since i started with Hush. mainly because of money reasons, but i enjoyed what i had and i didn't have a reason to think otherwise. but ever since Morrison took over i haven't really cared about what he was doing and after hearing what a great job Dini has been doing on 'Detective' and reading Heart of Hush i have been seriously considering switching books. i felt the same way after i read his run on X-Men. he had a lot of good ideas but i hated what he did to my favorite characters. i'm not saying he's a bad writer, i just feel if he was writing with his own creations instead of trying to "revolutionize" the people i already love i'd probably love him too.

people seem frustrated that they arent getting the answers they want as quickly as they want. but if it all works in the end, i dont see whats wrong with that. its kept me intrigued. and i think its been a solid story. as long as it all comes together in the end, which i can only assume it will, i dont see what the problem is.


thanks for being more constructive with your criticism then the usual "morrison sux it makes no sense wtf arghhh!!!!11"

 

[PrincessBoss]

I honestly cannot understand why any Batman fan doesn't appreciate Grant Morrison's run. He has went to great lengths of research to reference many, many great aspects of almost 70 years of Batman history and then tried to form it into a cohesive whole. He clearly loves and cares about the character in all his phases and has meticulously taken him apart to ensure that he has a spectacular send-off. Yes, he's "killing him off'' but that doesn't mean he holds any contempt for him and he is currently writing one of the most exciting stories to grace the pages of Batman in decades. In ten years, Batman RIP will be considered a milestone in the character's history and will rank among Year One, Dark Knight Returns, O'Neil & Adams etc. etc.

And the ninja Man-Bats were brilliant.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Solicitations are pretty much showing some serious spoilers.

And the ninja Man-Bats were stupid.

 

[The Sage]

Ninja-bats were fantastic.

 

[GrendelPrime32]

ok, i don't disagree that we should see how it comes out before judging it overall, and i really Should quit raggin em for being late, but Still...the comic book store guy last week told me it would be This week and now it's saying Next week? and it's already How late? if you were this late at Your job consistently, you'd be fired.
i understand in the creative field it's different, but not That different; there are deadlines. most folks take them seriously. i was griping about the time it's taken to get the story out, not so much the story itself, saying by dragging it out so far, he's hurting at least My overwhelming interest in the story and judgig by what my cbs guy says, it's hurt sales, interest, And morale and the over deadline stuff hurts Him more than GM.
after the last 8yrs, i'm a little tired of watching the big boys act out with impunity while the little guys suffer for it, that's all.

and for the record, i dug the ninja man-bats and most of the run so far; that's why i still buy it.

 

[Saint]

Ninja-bats were fantastic.

Indeed. Batman crippling thirty super flying mutant bat assassins? Awesome. Almost as good as Batman having a backup personality. I love the Batgod.

 

[The Sage]

Indeed. Batman crippling thirty super flying mutant bat assassins? Awesome. Almost as good as Batman having a backup personality. I love the Batgod.

The backup personality was genius. If this is the way Bruce Wayne bows out--at least for awhile--it's a great send off that celebrates how amazing he is.

 

[Robin91939]

I haven't been reading this monthly, I'm waiting for it to end and pick it up in Trade Paper Back...but is this true?

Does [BLACKOUT]Bruce find out that Alfred is his real father and it causes him to abandon his crusade because he discovers that his parents weren't the ones murdered in that alley. That Thomas Wayne wasn't his father and that Martha Wayne cheated on the man who raised him with the butler?[/BLACKOUT]

This is dumb for many reasons. This wouldn't make Batman quit, first of all. Because it is still two people that he loved very much who were murdered that night whether one was [BLACKOUT]his father [/BLACKOUT] or not. He still saw the power of evil and vowed to end it.

Where does this leave [BLACKOUT]Alfred[/BLACKOUT]? Did he know? Why did he not say anything for the last 30 years?

Does this make Bruce [BLACKOUT]poor[/BLACKOUT]? If he is not the true [BLACKOUT]son[/BLACKOUT] of Thomas Wayne... how does he [BLACKOUT]inherit[/BLACKOUT] all of that wealth. [BLACKOUT]I know you could say it's in his will, but that's assuming he updated his will in the 8 years Bruce was alive[/BLACKOUT].


This run will just bring up many questions. It cheapens that Batman mythology. You can't go and [BLACKOUT]take away[/BLACKOUT] Batman's reason for being Batman. It's like having the Joker be the killer of his parents, or finding out that Peter Parker went after the wrong man the night his uncle was killed and later discovering that the true killer was on the lose and turns into a super villain.



-R

 

[Robin91939]

And, we have to know that the [blackout] replacement[/blackout] will be Damien Wayne... I mean Morrison didn't just write and entire story to create the character just to not use him when this opportunity comes up. And that sucks, we're going to have a character that has been in existence for about two years be the one that takes the mantle over characters like Dick Grayson (been around about 70 years), Tim Drake (been around about 20 years), hell- even Jean Paul Valley or Jason Todd would make more sense.

-R