Batman, the most unbelivable superhero in all of comics!

[War Lord]

No. If we're aproaching Batman from the idea of him being a human being faced with real human limitations, it's pretty far fetched. For one simple reason. No one's good at everything. You can be the best damned mathmatician on the planet and be completely unable to wrap your head around chemistry.

I know. You want Moe, who carries a baseball bat and can't fight worth shiat. We know that already.

 

[The Question]

Wow. Way to tell me what I want even though I never said or thought anything even close to "Moe, who carries a baseball bat and can't fight worth shiat." I applaud your unparalleled skill of debate.

 

[War Lord]

Wow. Way to tell me what I want even though I never said or thought anything even close to "Moe, who carries a baseball bat and can't fight worth shiat." I applaud your unparalleled skill of debate.

I'm referring to past threads where you, what you described, amounted essentially to some guy who wore a silly costume and had a few fighting skills but had very little science knowlege himself and technical know how, but relied upon other people doing these things for him.

Essentially you don't want Batman, you want Batmoe.

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

No. If we're aproaching Batman from the idea of him being a human being faced with real human limitations, it's pretty far fetched. For one simple reason. No one's good at everything. You can be the best damned mathmatician on the planet and be completely unable to wrap your head around chemistry.

not really. chemistry does involve mathematics, so if you're the best mathmatician on the freakin planet chances of you being good at chemistry is very high.

 

[The Question]

I'm referring to past threads where you, what you described, amounted essentially to some guy who wore a silly costume and had a few fighting skills but had very little science knowlege himself and technical know how, but relied upon other people doing these things for him.

Now, there's where you misunderstand me. I didn't say a few fighting skills. I said a few fighting styles. It makes perfect sense that he would be a highly skilled hand to hand combatant. But he wouldn't need to know hundreds of fighting styles to be a highly skilled hand to hand combatant. As for the science bit, I definately think he should have a good knowlege of chemistry and enough mechanical and electronic skills to maintain his weapons in good working order. But really, what's so wrong with him not building the Batmobile himself?

In any event, what you said here is not "Moe, who carries a baseball bat and can't fight worth shiat."

Essentially you don't want Batman, you want Batmoe.

No. I want Batman. What I don't want is Batgod.

 

[Eddie Brock]

not really. chemistry does involve mathematics, so if you're the best mathmatician on the freakin planet chances of you being good at chemistry is very high.

if we WANT to get technical...
kidding

 

[The Question]

not really. chemistry does involve mathematics, so if you're the best mathmatician on the freakin planet chances of you being good at chemistry is very high.

Not necessairily. Some people just aren't good at chemistry. They can't remember all the chemical combinations, they can't handle the chemicals properly, and so on. Math is only one part pf chemistry.

 

[War Lord]

Now, there's where you misunderstand me. I didn't say a few fighting skills. I said a few fighting styles. It makes perfect sense that he would be a highly skilled hand to hand combatant. But he wouldn't need to know hundreds of fighting styles to be a highly skilled hand to hand combatant. As for the science bit, I definately think he should have a good knowlege of chemistry and enough mechanical and electronic skills to maintain his weapons in good working order. But really, what's so wrong with him not building the Batmobile himself?

In any event, what you said here is not "Moe, who carries a baseball bat and can't fight worth shiat."



No. I want Batman. What I don't want is Batgod.

That's fine and I agree with you that his fighting style should really be his own based on an amalgam of many fighting styles, because as with knowledge, his focus would be on using what best works. It would help eliminate the criticism how Batman can know so much, because it's he's picked and choose various fighting skills.

As far as his science and technical skills go, it's a necessary part of Batman, because identity is supposed to be absolutely secret only known by a lucky few and the bigger the circle of knowledge, the less likely that it could stay secret.

As I've pointed out before, if you don't concern yourself with diplomas and tests, a talented person can, in real life much more so in comics, acquire a huge personal database of knowledge because he can move on to new things as he's able and minimize time wasters that are part of college life. The fact that he knows so much is not as far fetched as you're arguing.

For example, if you didn't need to work and could take schooling year round, in real college, you could attain a Bachelor's degree in as little as 1.5 years if you load up on college courses and can handle 18 credits a semester for those 1.5 years. Somebody who doesn't need to concern themselves with the college process can attain the same knowledge in less time. Probably within a year, if you forego the time wasting courses that everybody has to take, like Eng 101. I'm saying time-wasting in terms of how Batman would look at it, not real life.

 

[The Question]

That's fine and I agree with you that his fighting style should really be his own based on an amalgam of many fighting styles, because as with knowledge, his focus would be on using what best works. It would help eliminate the criticism how Batman can know so much, because it's he's picked and choose various fighting skills.

Really, style isn't important. There are certain moves that would be very useful for Bruce. Most likely a combination of boxing, military hand to hand combat techniques, and judo would be best. But really, what's most important is experience.

As far as his science and technical skills go, it's a necessary part of Batman, because identity is supposed to be absolutely secret only known by a lucky few and the bigger the circle of knowledge, the less likely that it could stay secret.

Who says he's letting people know? Most of his more high tech weapons have been shown in the past to be remnants of Wayne Enterprises' now terminated military contracts. And really, he wouldn't even need that. Eccentric rich people are known to armor their vehicles. It's very possible that he could contact people who specialize in that, maybe even under a false name, and mave the Batmobile made.

As I've pointed out before, if you don't concern yourself with diplomas and tests, a talented person can, in real life much more so in comics, acquire a huge personal database of knowledge because he can move on to new things as he's able and minimize time wasters that are part of college life. The fact that he knows so much is not as far fetched as you're arguing.

No, it is. Because, as I've said, no one is good at everything. It's very doubtful that a person could gain doctorate level knowlege in multiple feilds, even without the "time wasters" of college, mainly because it's almost impossible for someone to contain that much information. Now, I'm fully willing to accept Bruce having some familiarity with several scientific feilds, but not being an expert in almost all of them.

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

Not necessairily. Some people just aren't good at chemistry. They can't remember all the chemical combinations, they can't handle the chemicals properly, and so on. Math is only one part pf chemistry.

although you are correct on chemical conbinations most peple can just ease by, just by knowing the mathematical concepts. math is is an intergrated part chemistry, don't let the highschool chemistry brainwash ya,once you hit college chemistry,both general and organic will have intergrated math.

its almost as saying your the best mathatician in the planet, but your completely ******ed in physics. for one to be givin such a title as being the best mathmatician, its pretty much a given that you expect that person to know all mathematical related problems in almost all fields of study that integrates math.

 

[War Lord]

Really, style isn't important. There are certain moves that would be very useful for Bruce. Most likely a combination of boxing, military hand to hand combat techniques, and judo would be best. But really, what's most important is experience.

I essentially agree with you here, but it's actually better for Batman to be an amalgam of many styles, picking and choose with what works for two reasons.

1. Batman would concern himself with picking what works and doesn't He's not a time waster who spends any more time than necessary learning what needs to be learned.

2. It would alleviate an criticism of how Batman could know so many styles, because he really doesn't know any particular style, but has picked and chosen specific skills from as many places as possible.

Who says he's letting people know? Most of his more high tech weapons have been shown in the past to be remnants of Wayne Enterprises' now terminated military contracts. And really, he wouldn't even need that. Eccentric rich people are known to armor their vehicles. It's very possible that he could contact people who specialize in that, maybe even under a false name, and mave the Batmobile made.

And when that vehicle is in Gotham roaming the streets, the first thing some interested parties would do is start whittling down people who have the right combination of characteristics and slowly close the circle to Bruce Wayne.

No, it is. Because, as I've said, no one is good at everything. It's very doubtful that a person could gain doctorate level knowlege in multiple feilds, even without the "time wasters" of college, mainly because it's almost impossible for someone to contain that much information. Now, I'm fully willing to accept Bruce having some familiarity with several scientific feilds, but not being an expert in almost all of them.

1. Batman is not good at everything. He's not much of a father, business man (Lucious Fox is the man here), and he lacks inherent social skills (most things he does as Bruce Wayne is false charm). He's also as nutty as the Joker in his own way, plus the fact that he's obsessive compulsive and driven about his ideals.

2. As I've pointed out before in your last thread on the topic, there are people out there in history who have attained that level of knowledge in real life and I pointed out a few examples. Alexander the Great, Leonardo Da Vinci, and others. All it takes is one person in real life to shred this part of your arguement to shreds. If it can happen in real life, and it has, than it can happen in the comics as it has with Batman.

 

[The Question]

I essentially agree with you here, but it's actually better for Batman to be an amalgam of many styles, picking and choose with what works for two reasons.

1. Batman would concern himself with picking what works and doesn't He's not a time waster who spends any more time than necessary learning what needs to be learned.

2. It would alleviate an criticism of how Batman could know so many styles, because he really doesn't know any particular style, but has picked and chosen specific skills from as many places as possible.

I think it would be better if DC simply said that he didn't know hundreds of styles.

And when that vehicle is in Gotham roaming the streets, the first thing some interested parties would do is start whittling down people who have the right combination of characteristics and slowly close the circle to Bruce Wayne.

And who's to say that he would buy it in Gotham?

1. Batman is not good at everything. He's not much of a father, business man (Lucious Fox is the man here), and he lacks inherent social skills (most things he does as Bruce Wayne is false charm). He's also as nutty as the Joker in his own way, plus the fact that he's obsessive compulsive and driven about his ideals.

That's not what I meant and you know it. I'm talking about skill sets.

2. As I've pointed out before in your last thread on the topic, there are people out there in history who have attained that level of knowledge in real life and I pointed out a few examples. Alexander the Great, Leonardo Da Vinci, and others. All it takes is one person in real life to shred this part of your arguement to shreds. If it can happen in real life, and it has, than it can happen in the comics as it has with Batman.

It hardly "tears my arguement to shreds." First of all, Da Vinci, while a highly talanted fellow, was not a master of all of the scientific feilds Batman is supposed to be. And really, one could make the arguement that such individuals were above human.

 

[War Lord]

I think it would be better if DC simply said that he didn't know hundreds of styles.

As I said, I agree with you here.

And who's to say that he would buy it in Gotham?

It needs to be shipped there (remember, we're staying with your realism arguement, so be consistent), because it can't be dropped off anywhere else because of the chance it would be stolen.

That's not what I meant and you know it. I'm talking about skill sets.

Batman basically has a few skill sets: fighting, technical know how, languages, and science and detective. That's not more than it is possible in real life. Somebody who was obsessed could easily push their skill sets to the limit and look greater than they actually are.

This is less than Lex Luthor, who is a businessman, politician, scientist, and supervillain, but you don't seem to mind Lex Luthor being able to have so much knowledge.

It hardly "tears my arguement to shreds." First of all, Da Vinci, while a highly talanted fellow, was not a master of all of the scientific feilds Batman is supposed to be. And really, one could make the arguement that such individuals were above human.

Florentine artist, one of the great masters of the High Renaissance, celebrated as a painter, sculptor, architect, engineer, and scientist. His profound love of knowledge and research was the keynote of both his artistic and scientific endeavors. His innovations in the field of painting influenced the course of Italian art for more than a century after his death, and his scientific studies—particularly in the fields of anatomy, optics, and hydraulics—anticipated many of the developments of modern science. (encarta).

Are you going to tell me that Da Vinci was some sort of alien-human hybrid?

 

[The Leaguer]

Batman is a normal human because the comic book says so.

End of argument.

 

[The Question]

It needs to be shipped there (remember, we're staying with your realism arguement, so be consistent), because it can't be dropped off anywhere else because of the chance it would be stolen.

So? Bruce could ship it through multiple locations. The guy who makes it ships it to, say, Kansas, and then from there Bruce has it shiped to Gotham. The maker has no idea it's going to Gotham. And it would simply be registered as a car when shipped, not "black, armored car with detatchible licnese plates."

Batman basically has a few skill sets: fighting, technical know how, languages, and science and detective. That's not more than it is possible in real life. Somebody who was obsessed could easily push their skill sets to the limit and look greater than they actually are.

No, they couldn't. "Technical lnow how" and "science" are not just two things. They cover biology, chemistry, rocket science, engineering, electronics, physics, and all sub catagories of that such as molecular bilogy, nuclear engineering, and so on.

This is less than Lex Luthor, who is a businessman, politician, scientist, and supervillain, but you don't seem to mind Lex Luthor being able to have so much knowledge.

Super villain isn't a skill set. Really, it's more of a morally questionable hobby. And his area of scientific expertese is engineering and electronics. He's an inventor, really. I don't think he's done any chemistry or biology work for himself post crisis.

Florentine artist, one of the great masters of the High Renaissance, celebrated as a painter, sculptor, architect, engineer, and scientist. His profound love of knowledge and research was the keynote of both his artistic and scientific endeavors. His innovations in the field of painting influenced the course of Italian art for more than a century after his death, and his scientific studies—particularly in the fields of anatomy, optics, and hydraulics—anticipated many of the developments of modern science. (encarta).

Yes. That's very nice. But that's not the same as Batman being a master of engineering, chemistry, biology, mathamatics, various medical sciences, electrial sience, physics, and a plethora of other scientific skill sets. Da Vinci's scientific skills fell mainly in the area of engineering and invention.

Are you going to tell me that Da Vinci was some sort of alien-human hybrid?

No.

 

[Zeu]

Da Vinci was extremelly gifted, creative and resourcefull but in all fairness, you can´t even begin to compare present day engineering with what dVinci had in the XV - XVI century.

He would probably have a seizure if he saw the amount of knowledge a college student has to digest nowadays just to be top of the class on his/her field of study (let alone the best in the world!).

You just can´t assimilate that much information by studying a couple books in your spare time between marital art classes (which in themselves require all your time, free or otherwise, if you are serious about being the best).

 

[The Question]

(which in themselves require all your time, free or otherwise, if you are serious about being the best).

Well, yes and no. There are fighting techniques that are designed to be very effective but take relatively less time training. The military tends to employ such techniques.

 

[Zeu]

True, but there´s a difference bwtween mastering a technique and becoming The Best at it.

The second one (Batgod´s case) requires your full undivided attention because while you´re sleeping (or studying chemical engineering), somewhere around the world, thousands of other people are giving their very best to become The Best at that technique.

 

[The Question]

True, but there´s a difference bwtween mastering a technique and becoming The Best at it.

The second one (Batgod´s case) requires your full undivided attention because while you´re sleeping (or studying chemical engineering), somewhere around the world, thousands of other people are giving their very best to become The Best at that technique.

True. But really, when you reach a certain level of any skill set, there are rarely specific hierarchies or skill. Most people who are "the best" have strengths and weaknesses in different areas that make them, as a whole, about equal.

 

[Zeu]

True. But really, when you reach a certain level of any skill set, there are rarely specific hierarchies or skill. Most people who are "the best" have strengths and weaknesses in different areas that make them, as a whole, about equal.

Whta I´m saying is that while you´re focusing all you have to become the best judo fighter int he world, somewhere out there thousands other are too.
And thounsads other are giving all they have to be the best boxeurs in the world.
Thousand other are giving all they have to be the best swordfighters in the world.
Thounsand others are selling their souls to the devil to become the best chemical engineers in the world.
Thounsand others are giving away their mothers, their kidneys and their left arms to become the best electronic experts in the world.

So, yes, I think it takes either extreme arrogance or complete ignorance from the writers´ part to assume that someone can come along and pass by all those poor souls who are giving all they have to become the best at just one thing and become best (or even 2nd best) at all of these things.

NOBODY can be that good.

Nobody human, that is.

 

[The Leaguer]

My favorite part about comics is that people do things they normally wouldn't be able to, because it's a Goddamn comic book.

 

[Zeu]

And then we wonder why most people don´t take comicbooks seriously.

 

[The Question]

Whta I´m saying is that while you´re focusing all you have to become the best judo fighter int he world, somewhere out there thousands other are too.
And thounsads other are giving all they have to be the best boxeurs in the world.
Thousand other are giving all they have to be the best swordfighters in the world.
Thounsand others are selling their souls to the devil to become the best chemical engineers in the world.
Thounsand others are giving away their mothers, their kidneys and their left arms to become the best electronic experts in the world.

So, yes, I think it takes either extreme arrogance or complete ignorance from the writers´ part to assume that someone can come along and pass by all those poor souls who are giving all they have to become the best at just one thing and become best (or even 2nd best) at all of these things.

NOBODY can be that good.

Nobody human, that is.

Well, really it's not a matter of being the best kickboxer or the best karate fighter. It's a matter of being the best fighter.

 

[The Leaguer]

And then we wonder why most people don´t take comicbooks seriously.

That's a pretty stupid argument, and reflects poorly on your intelligence. I'm giving you a friendly warning right now, if you pursue that, you'll look pretty dumb.

 

[The Question]

My favorite part about comics is that people do things they normally wouldn't be able to, because it's a Goddamn comic book.

That's not entirely true. The writers say that Batman has no powers. Yet they write him as if he had powers. That's messed.