BvS Batman v Superman Plot Speculation

[Superman_200]

Ever played the game, Rock (or Stone), Paper, Scissors?

Paper < Scissors and Scissors < Stone, so following your logic, it stands to reason that Paper < Stone as well.

No. Because that's not how the real world works. Hyenas in the wild can kill lions, but that doesn't mean the lion isn't the top predator. Brainiac doesn't try and fight emotionally, he tries to get what he wants and then leave (he's now actually a sort of archaeologist in the New 52 preserving dead worlds).


Bruce Wayne could:

Tell the world Clark is Superman

Reveal Superman brought the Kryptonians here

and on and on and on....

BASICALLY imagine everything that makes Lex Luthor a threat, but then give him the knowledge that Clark is Superman.

And at the same time Clark could tell the world Batman is Bruce Wayne, destroy his weapons, toys, suits, house, and leave him with nothing. He wouldn't be he could. Same way Batman could reveal Superman is Clark but wouldn't.

However, the difference the way I see it is that Bruce Wayne wouldn't be able to fight off all his enemies without his toys if the world knew he was Batman.

Superman on the other hand doesn't need anything to win. If Bruce Wayne revealed Clark is Superman Clark's personal life would be bad until he assumed a new identity in another part of the world. No problem. Bruce would have to rebuild all of his toys.

But rock paper scissors doesn't apply here because in this case it isn't about this one beats this one, and that one beats so and so. I think of it more as a pyramid or championship. If you can beat the best, brightest and most powerful, the lesser teams don't stand a chance. They can only win the best do not play their best.

 

[Superman_200]

I love the idea of number 5, Superman_200.
Batman is in the middle of fighting Superman, goes to throw a punch, gets grabbed by Superman. Three next thing he realizes, he's in Cairo or something. Superman advises Batman to stand down, then flies off. Then Bruce has to call Alfred to send the bat plane, and witty dialogue ensues.

The G-force would crush Batman if that were to happen actually. But technically, Superman could do it. He'd just have to move him at under 10 Gs so Batman does not become dust.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

And at the same time Clark could tell the world Batman is Bruce Wayne, destroy his weapons, toys, suits, house, and leave him with nothing. He wouldn't be he could. Same way Batman could reveal Superman is Clark but wouldn't.

However, the difference the way I see it is that Bruce Wayne wouldn't be able to fight off all his enemies without his toys if the world knew he was Batman.

Superman on the other hand doesn't need anything to win. If Bruce Wayne revealed Clark is Superman Clark's personal life would be bad until he assumed a new identity in another part of the world. No problem. Bruce would have to rebuild all of his toys.

Who do you think the world would be more angry at:

A man who lost his family to a violent crime and spent vast amounts of wealth defending the poor and innocent of a city, and although he indirectly causes some collateral damage, he often makes up for it in charitable donations fighting crime at the basest level, the poor of Gotham. He then has everything he worked for destroyed by a petty alien from whom he was merely trying to protect the world from.

OR

An alien who kept himself hidden, said to the military "you'll never control me" indirectly caused the deaths of thousands, the potential extinction of the human race, collateral damage that must surely run up in to the hundreds of billions of dollars and quite possibly the worst urban disaster since the bombings of Japan in WWII.

Bruce would likely be commended for his actions and Superman would be left without a world to call home.

But rock paper scissors doesn't apply here because in this case it isn't about this one beats this one, and that one beats so and so. I think of it more as a pyramid or championship. If you can beat the best, brightest and most powerful, the lesser teams don't stand a chance. They can only win the best do not play their best.

That explains why Superman can't beat Doomsday, Brainiac or Darkseid, right? Hell, just explain how he beats duplicate versions of himself then before you go on to superior beings.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I've always been a fan of the way Superman was defeated in The Dark Knight Returns... i didn't think that fight was unreasonable. Superman was holding back, Batman had help, AND Bats had an armored suit.

 

[Superman_200]

Who do you think the world would be more angry at:

A man who lost his family to a violent crime and spent vast amounts of wealth defending the poor and innocent of a city, and although he indirectly causes some collateral damage, he often makes up for it in charitable donations fighting crime at the basest level, the poor of Gotham. He then has everything he worked for destroyed by a petty alien from whom he was merely trying to protect the world from.

OR

An alien who kept himself hidden, said to the military "you'll never control me" indirectly caused the deaths of thousands, the potential extinction of the human race, collateral damage that must surely run up in to the hundreds of billions of dollars and quite possibly the worst urban disaster since the bombings of Japan in WWII.

Bruce would likely be commended for his actions and Superman would be left without a world to call home.



That explains why Superman can't beat Doomsday, Brainiac or Darkseid, right? Hell, just explain how he beats duplicate versions of himself then before you go on to superior beings.

Even if Superman were outcast because of the destruction he leaves behind, they literally have nothing they do to stop him.

And Superman can beat Doomsday and Brainiac and Darkseid and those guys because he has to be more powerful, basically, he is at the top of the food chain. He has to be smarter, stronger, etc. If he can beat those guys, and supposedly Batman could beat Superman, then are you saying Batman could beat Doomsday, Brainiac or Darkseid?

I've always been a fan of the way Superman was defeated in The Dark Knight Returns... i didn't think that fight was unreasonable. Superman was holding back, Batman had help, AND Bats had an armored suit.

I could go with that, but as long as it is made clear that he is not "winning" anymore than a parent who lets his son beat him at a footrace is losing. Superman already gets enough people hating on him, the character does not need a movie showing Batman beat him in a fist fight no less. Batman can manipulate him, that is fine, but he shouldn't beat him in a fight at all.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Any time anyone tries too hard to realistically figure out who would win in a fight between Batman and superman, I facepalm... it ultimately just comes down to the writer.

I don't even care who wins in the movie, because I know that either of them could feasibly win.

Plus, this MOS Superman seems a little weaker than a lot of interpretations. Bullets seem to effect Kryptonians more in this universe.

If Superman wanted to kill Batman he probably could immediately. Batman has to count on Clark's nature to win.

 

[shallbecomeabat]

I wouldn't want to see in the movie that Batman presents even the slightest threat in anyway to Superman. He can be smarter, and represent humanity and all that, but I want Superman treated like he is just on another level. I don't like the fact that so many people think Batman would win, so I'd like the movie to squash that idea.

Wow. That would be the most boring Superman movie ever, because that would also mean that Lex is no threat to Supes.

Yeah, I am a Batman fan first, but Supes is my second favorite character of all time, so I am in no way a Batman only fanboy. I don't want to see the Dark Knight Returns fight on screen, because its extremely stupid and pisses all over Superman as a character. That said, what you propose does the same thing to Batman.

The Superman you describe is exactly that Superman most people hate: the untouchable, unbeatable, overpowered snorefest. That superman doesn't need a JLA, or a friendship to Batman, since he alone can handle everything. I HATE that version of Superman.

My Superman is the one that is prevalent in the modern comics. He is the mightiest of the JLA (next to Martian Manhunter), but he can be manipulated by a more tactical mind, like Bruce or Lex. He is intelligent, but he does not think on the same level as those guys do, which is why Lex is the perfect archenemy to him and why Bruce is a perfect uneasy friend/ally to him. He also can be physically beaten by stronger characters, of which there are a lot (Mongul, Doomsday, Darkseid etc.).
No matter all of that, he comes through in the end and finds a way, but has to face challenges that are hard for him to overcome, be it the might of Darkseid, the manipulations of Bruce or Lex, or a more philosophical problem. Thats my Superman and thats the Superman we will get in this movie (just like in MoS).

I don't want Batman to beat him up in a fist fight, but I want it to be shown that Bruce is formidable enough to go toe to toe with him for at least a little while, and maybe outthink him. Superman should ultimately beat him, but it shouldn't be the squash you would like it to be.

I really have to say, if Superman really were like you want him to be, I wouldn't like the character. Good News for me though.

 

[Loki882]

He's called "Superman" not "Perfect-man" or "Gary Stu-man." There have to be limits. He doesn't have to be the best at EVERYTHING (that just makes for a boring character). You can have other characters be somewhat smarter than him (at least in a tactical sense) without reducing him to being a idiot.

 

[Superman_200]

Wow. That would be the most boring Superman movie ever, because that would also mean that Lex is no threat to Supes.

Yeah, I am a Batman fan first, but Supes is my second favorite character of all time, so I am in no way a Batman only fanboy. I don't want to see the Dark Knight Returns fight on screen, because its extremely stupid and pisses all over Superman as a character. That said, what you propose does the same thing to Batman.

The Superman you describe is exactly that Superman most people hate: the untouchable, unbeatable, overpowered snorefest. That superman doesn't need a JLA, or a friendship to Batman, since he alone can handle everything. I HATE that version of Superman.

My Superman is the one that is prevalent in the modern comics. He is the mightiest of the JLA (next to Martian Manhunter), but he can be manipulated by a more tactical mind, like Bruce or Lex. He is intelligent, but he does not think on the same level as those guys do, which is why Lex is the perfect archenemy to him and why Bruce is a perfect uneasy friend/ally to him. He also can be physically beaten by stronger characters, of which there are a lot (Mongul, Doomsday, Darkseid etc.).
No matter all of that, he comes through in the end and finds a way, but has to face challenges that are hard for him to overcome, be it the might of Darkseid, the manipulations of Bruce or Lex, or a more philosophical problem. Thats my Superman and thats the Superman we will get in this movie (just like in MoS).

I don't want Batman to beat him up in a fist fight, but I want it to be shown that Bruce is formidable enough to go toe to toe with him for at least a little while, and maybe outthink him. Superman should ultimately beat him, but it shouldn't be the squash you would like it to be.

I really have to say, if Superman really were like you want him to be, I wouldn't like the character. Good News for me though.

If it were my movie, Superman would have not been in a universe that had Batman and all the other characters. I'd have solo Justice League movies with other actors but I liked Nolan's idea much better.

As far as how I like Superman presented is just the character that is able to move planets, and blow out stars like he is blowing out a candle. Just massively powerful and perfect. The only ones who are rivals to him are aliens who have been attracted to the Earth by his presence but nothing on Earth being a threat to him. If it were my movie, Lex would be a threat because he is like the mafia, but does not have anything that can be a physical threat to Superman.

That's my personal taste. When you have a character that is perfect, it makes me like him more because he is, well, perfect. What is not to like about that? Superman to me is kind of like the perfect character for those of us who are OCD and need everything to be perfect, and spotless and in its place, meticulous about our appearance, homes, cars, etc. So for me, the more powerful and perfect he is the more I like him.

 

[Rorschach2012]

Superman's a very personal character for a lot of people, and they all have their own take on him, but i'm not a fan of your take on him at all.

I like the idea of him existing in a universe with other heroes. I also like the idea of an imperfect Superman leading the Justice League. I think a majority of the Superman fanbase likes both of those things.. Making him too perfect makes him boring imo.

 

[bluerayer]

I say this as a huge Batman fan. But...

Doesn't Superman have more "Prep Time" than Batman? He can move and think a whole lot faster than a puny human.

 

[smsvmos]

I believe that this movie will take place a few months after the events of MoS. If it's so, then I believe that the mayor players in the movie will be

1) Star Labs ( recovering alien wreckage from the kryptonian ships and studying it and from here 2 characters from the JLA will come out. Cyborg and The Flash.)

2) Batman/Bruce Wayne (I believe he is more interested in his fallen satellite and the secrets that can be discovered if it falls in the wrong hands. His identity can be compromised and that of his partners)

3) Lex Luthor ( there are 2 possibilities. The first could be that his parents died in the kryptonian invasion an now he claims what belongs to him. Or Lex is a young genius with a OCD that involves total control over anything that he fells threaten by and that involves Superman)

4) Wonder Woman/Diana ( either it's she is sent to investigate Superman or Batman. Maybe she believes Superman is a new God from ancient times or Batmans satellite uncovered the true location of their island)

 

[Loki882]

I say this as a huge Batman fan. But...

Doesn't Superman have more "Prep Time" than Batman? He can move and think a whole lot faster than a puny human.

That's actually been written inconsistently over the years. Personally, I'm not a fan of the "super-learning" thing. He's already stronger and faster than almost everyone else, does he really have to be smarter than everyone to? Does he have to be the best at literally everything? Can't he be really smart in his own right, but just have some people who are smarter, is that so wrong?

 

[bluerayer]

That's actually been written inconsistently over the years. Personally, I'm not a fan of the "super-learning" thing. He's already stronger and faster than almost everyone else, does he really have to be smarter than everyone to? Does he have to be the best at literally everything? Can't he be really smart in his own right, but just have some people who are smarter, is that so wrong?

Well, you know, the same thing can be said about Batman.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Even if Superman were outcast because of the destruction he leaves behind, they literally have nothing they do to stop him.

VILLAIN!!!

And Superman can beat Doomsday and Brainiac and Darkseid and those guys because he has to be more powerful, basically, he is at the top of the food chain. He has to be smarte, stronger, etc. If he can beat those guys, and supposedly Batman could beat Superman, then are you saying Batman could beat Doomsday, Brainiac or Darkseid?

Superman isn't stronger than Darkseid. Darkseid is bigger than reality, he's the very idea of evil. Superman may seem like a god, Darkseid is the New God. Or to put it even more simply, in terms of his goodness, there are people Superman can be compared to: Moses, Jesus etc. There is no measuring stick for Darkseid. Darkseid simply is.

 

[Loki882]

Well, you know, the same thing can be said about Batman.

Except that he's not. Batman's ultimately just a man. A brilliant rich man with cool toys, but a man. It's a big part of his appeal. There are hundreds if not thousands of characters who can squash him like a bug in a straight-up throwdown. Also, his character flaws are well-documented (paranoia, tendency to act like a dick at times even to his friends/loved ones, cynical nature, etc).

 

[Mozart's Defib]

So pretty much the state of mind of movie critics and fanboys.

Pretty much. Honestly, it just makes sense. The fact that such a debate over wether Superman did the right thing in MOS exists among the GA lends credence to the idea that this is how the world would react in the aftermath of the film.

Not only that, but it allows for a bit of meta commentary: Whereas the first film is about Clark coming to terms with his role in the world as Superman, BvS would be about establishing that role in the public eye, in spite of international criticism. He's not going to go back to an older state of being. He can't take back what he's done or magically erase his faults. He is who he is and, like it or not, he's showing us why we need him.

 

[goth ham]

My thought is that this movie will revolve around fear. Lex Luthor will be seen as humanities savior when he works to rebuild Metropolis. He can take two paths: enlist Superman in the rebuild or build up hysteria against Superman...either way doesn't really matter as he will secretly be scared as heck and working to find a way to kill Superman. I am guessing he will be doing this by attempting to learn more about Superman's biology and psychology and his home planet. On the other side of the coin you will have Batman who is intrigued and terrified. He will also be attempting to find some way to neutralize Superman.

My hope is that they show Superman endearing himself to humanity. Working to end world hunger, saving everyday citizens, etc. Superman will obviously eventually find out about everyone trying to kill him so he will naturally need to explore more of his origins as well. This can also give Kevin Costner/young Clark some time to build on what Superman expects from humanity. He knew that there would be powerful people that would be threatened if they found out about him.

The story will come to a head when Batman makes a discovery of (something...maybe kryptonite/atmospherics) that enables him to fight Superman on a more even playing field. This fight I expect to end in a stalemate. Alfred and Bruce Wayne will have a discussion about how the alien may not be so terrible while Clark is thinking back to his conversations with his father about humanity/talking to Jor-el about humanity.

The unifying part will come when Lex Luthor finally makes the discovery HE was looking for...a way to destroy Superman. This could come in the guise of many things (Doomsday, Metallo, etc.) but I am hoping for Brainiac as it give the Justice League more of a reason to assemble. This threat reminds Batman how sometimes it is humanity that can't be trusted while giving Superman a reason to need some help. My hope is that Brainiac eventually ends up taking over all of earth's military systems and intelligence leading to mass panic. Superman does the physical work against Brainiac(or whatever villian) while Batman works on Luther and the technology side of taking down Brainiac. The two struggle to complete their tasks when WW shows up to take down the physical side of Brainiac and Cyborg shows up to help Batman with the technical side. The menace is defeated (for now), but Earth still loves Lex Luthor. The heroes are all introduced and JL is teased as we find that Brainiac is alive and well and has taken over the fortress of solitude/batcave.

Thoughts?

 

[Boy Scout]

The only way Batman would ever have a chance of beating Superman is if Superman was either an idiot or written to be an idiot. Superman could subdue Batman in an instant. I love Batman, but come on.

 

[bluerayer]

Except that he's not. Batman's ultimately just a man. A brilliant rich man with cool toys, but a man. It's a big part of his appeal. There are hundreds if not thousands of characters who can squash him like a bug in a straight-up throwdown. Also, his character flaws are well-documented (paranoia, tendency to act like a dick at times even to his friends/loved ones, cynical nature, etc).

Oh yeah, i totally agree with you man. I was just flipping it around you know.

 

[Charlatan]

The G-force would crush Batman if that were to happen actually. But technically, Superman could do it. He'd just have to move him at under 10 Gs so Batman does not become dust.

unless Supes manipulates gravity to fly. maybe he has a gravitational field around him? Was it Byrne that posited that he had this tele-kinetic ability?

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

The only way Batman would ever have a chance of beating Superman is if Superman was either an idiot or written to be an idiot. Superman could subdue Batman in an instant. I love Batman, but come on.

Then why does Superman always rely on Batman, out of everyone on Earth, to be the one to stop him should he go rogue?

Or is that him being an idiot?

 

[MrsKent26]

Except that he's not. Batman's ultimately just a man. A brilliant rich man with cool toys, but a man. It's a big part of his appeal. There are hundreds if not thousands of characters who can squash him like a bug in a straight-up throwdown. Also, his character flaws are well-documented (paranoia, tendency to act like a dick at times even to his friends/loved ones, cynical nature, etc).

While this is true, batman is rarely treated like "just a man." If he was, people wouldn't think the very idea of superman or anyone else beating him was impossible. I know every batfan doesn't think like this, but some do and argue for the cause. I don't think batman is ever a Gary Stu though. People's love for him just makes them forget he's human sometimes.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I don't think Batman is just a man. He's the ultimate ideal in secular humanism. The perfect human in regards to his single minded ambition.

 

[Boy Scout]

Then why does Superman always rely on Batman, out of everyone on Earth, to be the one to stop him should he go rogue?

Or is that him being an idiot?

Yes, it is, assuming Superman expects Batman to neutralize him through physical force, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case.