The Dark Knight Batman vs. Iron Man via chud.com (Batman as a Character)

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Evening, ladies and gentle-men. Get a load of this. It's an interesting read.

I don't think its very interesting. He made a couple valid points but any flaws in Batman the character is due to the poor characterization by writers and not a flaw in the "concept" of Batman.

His criticisms can apply to every superhero every written. When a character has a 40+ history there is bound to be some molded smelly cheese among the gold.
 
I don't think its very interesting. He made a couple valid points but any flaws in Batman the character is due to the poor characterization by writers and not a flaw in the "concept" of Batman.

His criticisms can apply to every superhero every written. When a character has a 40+ history there is bound to be some molded smelly cheese among the gold.

Raybia - Who's that in your icon?
 
I'm going to address the major claims of the article.



The author assigns a trait of all characters to Batman specifically, as a negative. Characters cannot exist in a vacuum. A supporting cast is necessary in all but the rarest instances to stimulate character advancement and give the character people to sound of on, so the entire story isn't told in monologue.

This is simply the nature of comics: changes are few, and sudden. You will always get a decade or two of stagnation followed by sudden, sharp advancement. That's just how the business works.


The degree to which batman should be relatable on the superficial level is open for debate. It is important for him to be relatable as representing the internal struggles of humanity--it is less important for us to say "Yeah, he fights crime because his parents died--I relate to that."



This is the best part. What a composite character like Batman is "about" is as much up to the reader as it is to the individual writing him at any given time. The inability of the author to extract meaning from the character says more about him than it does about Batman.

On the most fundamental levels, Batman is about two things: first, human power and independency; and second, the ethical struggle inherent in human existence, which can be boiled down to "do the ends justify the means."

On the first note, Batman has always represented--though not intentionally, I imagine--atheistic sensibilities where other superheroes normally reflect theistic sensibilities. The hero who is given a miraculous gift of power to defend the world reflects the mentality that there will always be someone to watch over us--that God is there to protect us and save us. Superman is a Christ child from the heavens, Wonder Woman was forged by the gods themselves. They represents absolutes: they are morally complete, paragons who come down from the heavens to protect us from evil. They did not need tragedy to shape them, they simply knew what had to be done, and they do it.

Batman, on the other hand, contains a message very different: that there is no one to save us, that God will not protect us, and we will not be supported by divinity or the inherent good of the universe in our struggles. Batman reflects the sensibility that ultimate moral responsibility is on the shoulders of mankind, and we must determine this code and execute it accordingly, because no one else will do it for us. We have to make our own heroes and protect ourselves.

The second point I mentioned follows from this. Batman is frequently the voice of mankind among the superpowered: he is the voice of dissent that insists that superhumanity cannot make decisions for humanity. He insists that the burden of moral decisions should be on mankind. He is not trusting of the superfolk and the authority they seem to think they have. This is the second point: because of this, he represents completely our own struggle to do what we believe is good, and how far we go to achieve these ends, because he does not delegate responsibility to anyone besides humanity. He does not say "What would Superman do" the way some people ask "What would Jesus do?" He doesn't recognize any authority besides humanity when making the decisions that affect us, and accordingly the responsibility to determine what is right or wrong, and the struggles that come with it, all rest squarely on man.

To illustrate this struggle, he represents the pinnacle of humanity: noble, self-sacrificing to the absolute, dedicated, the peak of intelligence, strength, and skill, with an unwavering dedication to what is right and just. At the same time, he represents the absolute bottom of humanity: he is ruled by suffering, dependent on violence, driven at least in part by all of our darker natures: vengeance, hate, anger.

Accordingly, he is constantly at odds with himself and his mission. There is a part of him that is the noble pacifist, who abhors violence and seeks peace through peace, and the part of him that is the vengeful criminal, the part that feels compelled to go out and hurt, to punish, who seeks peace through war. Fundamentally he is our own struggle to find our moral center, our balance. To what degree to we use diplomacy to seek peace, and to what degree do we enforce it?

He also represents the struggle between reason and emotion. Ostensibly, Batman seems to be the ultimate rational thinker: giving no consideration to faith or emotion. But at his core, he is driven by pure, unadulterated emotion with no consideration for reason: his mission, to any rational man, is fruitless, but his emotion refuses to let him leave it be. He cannot rationally justify his rule of non-lethality, it is rooted in emotion, his absolutism and inability to compromise, the childish heart that can't bear to see anyone die. He is at once the ultimate optimist and the ultimate pessimist.

So, in other words, what Batman is "about" is being human. I can't imagine a more relevant theme than this, and it disturbs me that an individual who, ostensibly, has taken time to think on the matter and write this article has not noticed this.


Curious--this sounds like what he did in Batman Begins.



Reality, no--psychology, yes. Every villain should reflect a fundamentally different philosophy on being human, and accordingly psychology is critical. The villains are meant to be the men that Batman could have (or could still) become. The Joker is the man that accepted violence as the truth of the universe, where Batman is the man who absolutely refused it. Two-Face is the man who could not reconcile that conflict, and split himself in two for it. Scarecrow is Batman's dark emotion, Freeze is his cold caculation. I said that Batman is mankind's struggle to find his moral center, the blanace between good, evil, emotion, logic, and each of these villains represents what Batman would become were he not balanced, each is an extreme version of one of these elements oh human life.

Because they are meant to represent extreme, they do not need to be realistic. They can be incredible, impossible, fantastic borderline supernatural things, but the core will always be there, and that is their root in humanity.



This is one of the few sentiments in the article that make sense. Certainly there are a myriad of possibilities--not to take anything away from the realistic approach, but many are extremely intriguing and I want to see them in future films.

impressive writing there sir :up:

clearly devin doesnt get the character. you should forward your response to him.:oldrazz:
 
My thoughts that I posted earlier in another thread:

First things first -- the guy from CHUD. It appears he got so caught up in attempting to classify the Batman character as a "boring freak" that he completely missed the point.

Bruce Wayne came out of a traumatic childhood experience lost. He was angry, full of rage, and did not know what to do with his life. But rather than become a self-loathing shut-in, he took that anger and turned it towards something good. He chose to train his mind and body and to use the wealth that was bestowed upon to him to fight the kind of evil and corruption that shattered his life when he was a child.

Of course, there's the question that the CHUD guy brings up: what separates Batman from the costumed freaks he fights? Then again, you could ask that of nearly any superhero, including his new favorite, Iron Man. What separates Iron Man from the Iron Monger? Spider-man from the Green Goblin?..etc. And of course, Batman is a flawed character. He doesn't hop around cracking jokes like Spider-man. He's a man that has been through too much and takes things seriously. However, this does not make him any more of a one-note character than Iron Man or Spider-man. In fact, his tortured psyche provides room for more depth and exploration of the character and his limits.

Lastly, Batman may not be truly effective. He's one man against an entire city full of corruption. But in a city so lost, people need a symbol. They need something to believe in and Batman is that symbol. As Bruce said in Batman Begins, symbols are incorruptible.
 
I'm going to address the major claims of the article.



The author assigns a trait of all characters to Batman specifically, as a negative. Characters cannot exist in a vacuum. A supporting cast is necessary in all but the rarest instances to stimulate character advancement and give the character people to sound of on, so the entire story isn't told in monologue.

This is simply the nature of comics: changes are few, and sudden. You will always get a decade or two of stagnation followed by sudden, sharp advancement. That's just how the business works.


The degree to which batman should be relatable on the superficial level is open for debate. It is important for him to be relatable as representing the internal struggles of humanity--it is less important for us to say "Yeah, he fights crime because his parents died--I relate to that."



This is the best part. What a composite character like Batman is "about" is as much up to the reader as it is to the individual writing him at any given time. The inability of the author to extract meaning from the character says more about him than it does about Batman.

On the most fundamental levels, Batman is about two things: first, human power and independency; and second, the ethical struggle inherent in human existence, which can be boiled down to "do the ends justify the means."

On the first note, Batman has always represented--though not intentionally, I imagine--atheistic sensibilities where other superheroes normally reflect theistic sensibilities. The hero who is given a miraculous gift of power to defend the world reflects the mentality that there will always be someone to watch over us--that God is there to protect us and save us. Superman is a Christ child from the heavens, Wonder Woman was forged by the gods themselves. They represents absolutes: they are morally complete, paragons who come down from the heavens to protect us from evil. They did not need tragedy to shape them, they simply knew what had to be done, and they do it.

Batman, on the other hand, contains a message very different: that there is no one to save us, that God will not protect us, and we will not be supported by divinity or the inherent good of the universe in our struggles. Batman reflects the sensibility that ultimate moral responsibility is on the shoulders of mankind, and we must determine this code and execute it accordingly, because no one else will do it for us. We have to make our own heroes and protect ourselves.

The second point I mentioned follows from this. Batman is frequently the voice of mankind among the superpowered: he is the voice of dissent that insists that superhumanity cannot make decisions for humanity. He insists that the burden of moral decisions should be on mankind. He is not trusting of the superfolk and the authority they seem to think they have. This is the second point: because of this, he represents completely our own struggle to do what we believe is good, and how far we go to achieve these ends, because he does not delegate responsibility to anyone besides humanity. He does not say "What would Superman do" the way some people ask "What would Jesus do?" He doesn't recognize any authority besides humanity when making the decisions that affect us, and accordingly the responsibility to determine what is right or wrong, and the struggles that come with it, all rest squarely on man.

To illustrate this struggle, he represents the pinnacle of humanity: noble, self-sacrificing to the absolute, dedicated, the peak of intelligence, strength, and skill, with an unwavering dedication to what is right and just. At the same time, he represents the absolute bottom of humanity: he is ruled by suffering, dependent on violence, driven at least in part by all of our darker natures: vengeance, hate, anger.

Accordingly, he is constantly at odds with himself and his mission. There is a part of him that is the noble pacifist, who abhors violence and seeks peace through peace, and the part of him that is the vengeful criminal, the part that feels compelled to go out and hurt, to punish, who seeks peace through war. Fundamentally he is our own struggle to find our moral center, our balance. To what degree to we use diplomacy to seek peace, and to what degree do we enforce it?

He also represents the struggle between reason and emotion. Ostensibly, Batman seems to be the ultimate rational thinker: giving no consideration to faith or emotion. But at his core, he is driven by pure, unadulterated emotion with no consideration for reason: his mission, to any rational man, is fruitless, but his emotion refuses to let him leave it be. He cannot rationally justify his rule of non-lethality, it is rooted in emotion, his absolutism and inability to compromise, the childish heart that can't bear to see anyone die. He is at once the ultimate optimist and the ultimate pessimist.

So, in other words, what Batman is "about" is being human. I can't imagine a more relevant theme than this, and it disturbs me that an individual who, ostensibly, has taken time to think on the matter and write this article has not noticed this.


Curious--this sounds like what he did in Batman Begins.



Reality, no--psychology, yes. Every villain should reflect a fundamentally different philosophy on being human, and accordingly psychology is critical. The villains are meant to be the men that Batman could have (or could still) become. The Joker is the man that accepted violence as the truth of the universe, where Batman is the man who absolutely refused it. Two-Face is the man who could not reconcile that conflict, and split himself in two for it. Scarecrow is Batman's dark emotion, Freeze is his cold caculation. I said that Batman is mankind's struggle to find his moral center, the blanace between good, evil, emotion, logic, and each of these villains represents what Batman would become were he not balanced, each is an extreme version of one of these elements oh human life.

Because they are meant to represent extreme, they do not need to be realistic. They can be incredible, impossible, fantastic borderline supernatural things, but the core will always be there, and that is their root in humanity.



This is one of the few sentiments in the article that make sense. Certainly there are a myriad of possibilities--not to take anything away from the realistic approach, but many are extremely intriguing and I want to see them in future films.

Dude, you rock!! It would be great for you to e-mail that to him. How fun would it be.

And he thought Fantastic Four is better than BB? What a frickin' joke! He probably never like Batman at all. :oldrazz:
 
Actually what I think is that all these articles flaming the dark knight and the character batman as a whole is due to the result of the Iron Man movie's impact on people. People are starting to make Iron Man their new Batman because he has everything that Batman has and a whole lot more, why bother with Batman when Iron Man is alot better, more interesting weapons, more interesting sidekicks (War Machine), has actual super powers and real armor rather than some protective suit etc etc... I tell ya this Iron Man movie is going to convert alot of fans and non fans into liking Iron Man over Batman. Wait and see.
 
Actually what I think is that all these articles flaming the dark knight and the character batman as a whole is due to the result of the Iron Man movie's impact on people. People are starting to make Iron Man their new Batman because he has everything that Batman has and a whole lot more, why bother with Batman when Iron Man is alot better, more interesting weapons, more interesting sidekicks (War Machine), has actual super powers and real armor rather than some protective suit etc etc... I tell ya this Iron Man movie is going to convert alot of fans and non fans into liking Iron Man over Batman. Wait and see.


I don't know about that but I think people who didn't know much about Iron Man might become fans after seeing the movie.
 
He makes some valid points, but mostly I disagree with him. But obviously I love Batman, and he doesn't and that's where he's coming from. I can respect that.

However, this part had me scratching my head.

That's what I love about Jon Favreau's Iron Man - the hero isn't being deconstructed, he's not a closet case or a deviant or a freak. Who would have thought that a mostly psychologically undamaged heroic superhero would be refreshing?

So Tony Stark, a billionaire who dresses up as a costumed hero with a lot of gadgets as a way of atoning for his past mistakes, is different or less psychologically damaged than Bruce Wayne :huh:?

I get that tonally IM will be different then TDK. But the two heroes have similiar characteristics. And I wouldn't call dressing up as a hero a rational response in any real life situation.
 
I tell ya this Iron Man movie is going to convert alot of fans and non fans into liking Iron Man over Batman. Wait and see.

Not likely. While the movie will make many who doesn't read comics become fans and other could like him even better, but not more over Batman. Batman will always be more popular than Iron Man no matter what.
 
Batman's gallery of villains kicks the crap out of Iron Man's and Iron Man is pretty much a rip-off of Batman/Bruce Wayne to begin with. Batman is a Tier 1 superhero with Superman and Spider-Man. Everyone else is Tier 2 or lower.
 
Actually what I think is that all these articles flaming the dark knight and the character batman as a whole is due to the result of the Iron Man movie's impact on people. People are starting to make Iron Man their new Batman because he has everything that Batman has and a whole lot more, why bother with Batman when Iron Man is alot better, more interesting weapons, more interesting sidekicks (War Machine), has actual super powers and real armor rather than some protective suit etc etc... I tell ya this Iron Man movie is going to convert alot of fans and non fans into liking Iron Man over Batman. Wait and see.


picard-facepalm.jpg
 
Actually what I think is that all these articles flaming the dark knight and the character batman as a whole is due to the result of the Iron Man movie's impact on people. People are starting to make Iron Man their new Batman because he has everything that Batman has and a whole lot more, why bother with Batman when Iron Man is alot better, more interesting weapons, more interesting sidekicks (War Machine), has actual super powers and real armor rather than some protective suit etc etc... I tell ya this Iron Man movie is going to convert alot of fans and non fans into liking Iron Man over Batman. Wait and see.

Hey - there's a guy who just called asking for you...he says it's urgent:

phailminer.jpg
 
I wonder if Devin's tune will change when he sees Tony Stark becoming addicted to booze in the Iron Man sequel. He won't look so "psychologically undamaged" then.
 
Devin used to be a fine writer, and still can be on occasion, but recently he's become little more than a parody of himself. Most of his editorial pieces are about how emotionally stunted the fan community is, yet he makes a living off these people. It's amazing that Nick Nunziata keeps him on, as he's slowly isolating each and every Chud follower with his increasingly inane, sometimes borderline sociopathic (read some of his board banter) writing. You can't bite the hand that feeds you.

He's the textbook definition of a self-loathing geek.

And, to stay on topic, way, way off when it comes to Batman. Whoever just said it here is right - the character simply isn't his bag. It's like someone saying "I would like Spider-Man, if he was a foul-mouthed, wife-beating, anti-Semite." If you're going to wish for the character to change who he is, then maybe that character just isn't you, and you'd be happier reading Nazi Wife-Beater Man.

And there's nothing wrong with that. But that's where Nick has to come in and say "Let's have someone else cover the Dark Knight news items" (and he has, thankfully). It used to be every Dark Knight news piece was done by Devin and was nothing more than a thinly-veiled Begins rant.
 
Funny...I thought we were in for "So could Iron Man beat Batman in an all-out bout?!"

It's all taste. It's like saying gouda vs. swiss, or salt vs. pepper
 
We have a thread for this BS!:cmad: It's called Batman's competition in 2008. http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=238048 Do not infect our BATMAN Forum with this crap. Yes I am aware that the film is coming out and I know you are all excited about Iron Man getting on the big screen, but you have your own forum where you can compare Iron Man and Batman there all you want NOT HERE!!!!!!!!
 
I wonder if Devin's tune will change when he sees Tony Stark becoming addicted to booze in the Iron Man sequel. He won't look so "psychologically undamaged" then.

Well Robert Downy Jr is a method actor in that department.:woot:
 
Devin used to be a fine writer, and still can be on occasion, but recently he's become little more than a parody of himself. Most of his editorial pieces are about how emotionally stunted the fan community is, yet he makes a living off these people. It's amazing that Nick Nunziata keeps him on, as he's slowly isolating each and every Chud follower with his increasingly inane, sometimes borderline sociopathic (read some of his board banter) writing. You can't bite the hand that feeds you.

He's the textbook definition of a self-loathing geek.

And, to stay on topic, way, way off when it comes to Batman. Whoever just said it here is right - the character simply isn't his bag. It's like someone saying "I would like Spider-Man, if he was a foul-mouthed, wife-beating, anti-Semite." If you're going to wish for the character to change who he is, then maybe that character just isn't you, and you'd be happier reading Nazi Wife-Beater Man.

And there's nothing wrong with that. But that's where Nick has to come in and say "Let's have someone else cover the Dark Knight news items" (and he has, thankfully). It used to be every Dark Knight news piece was done by Devin and was nothing more than a thinly-veiled Begins rant.

LOL, way to lay the smack down man! :woot:
 
I’m going to pick on only one of the author’s points. He took exception to Batman’s enemies being equally, if not more, interesting than Batman. I’m going to explain why I think thats awesome.

Comic books are modern day mythology, or so I’m told. Classic Greek’s writers took mythology and turned it into tragedy. Nietschze, in his book “Birth of Tragedy”, made some interesting observations on why these classic writings worked so well dramatically. Nutshelled, he argued that the best greek literature pitted two diametrically opposed ideals against one another; Apollonian and Dionysain. Apollonians representing a manufactured reality (art), and the Dionysains representing unfiltered, uncensored life.

Moronically put, idealists versus realists.

The fact is that these two groups are always at war with each other. Victory is elusive for both sides, however, as a heathy society cannot be ruled solely by either camp. Gaining a slight edge is all one side can reasonably hope to achieve. Engaging in a perpetual, cyclic game of one-upmanship and stalemates.

Of all superheroes, Batman best exemplifies this struggle. Especially when paired with Joker.

Batman is a representation of a society’s attempt to bring order and meaning. Laws are a form of art created by government (Apollonians).

Joker (and just as importantly, the corrupt GPD) represent the failure of societal stricture. They are anarchic, self-serving, and base (Dionysains).

No one wants to live in a world which is purely authoritarian or, conversely, one which is totally chaotic. Thus balance is born out of the conflict between these two forces.

Batman Begins did a good job of highlighting the Grecian game of ideology one-upmanship and simply called it escalation.

Villains HAVE to be as good (or interesting) as the hero. Otherwise there is no struggle. So, what that man called the franchise’s weakness, I call it’s strength. And I’m only applying an established template of literary criticism.



I’ll post more if this sparks a response.
 
Before reading this article, there's some things you should know about Devin, its author, which are clear from his history on CHUD.

Namely, he thinks the superhero genre is stupid and juvenile. Thus, he has an intense hatred for any superhero comic that dares take itself seriously. He wrote this big rant a few months back called "Your Superhero Is Broken", basically saying that "The Dark Knight Returns" and "Watchman" killed the superhero genre, and they should have just stopped making superhero comics after that. The only reason they didn't is because the stupid fans wouldn't let go. Oh yes, he has a deep-seated disdain for the "homo-repressed teen-fascist fantasist losers" who read superhero comics, especially the ones who - God forbid! - think some can make for serious storytelling.

By extension, Devin has a bias against any comic book movie that tries to incorporate nuance and maturity into its characters and narrative. The only comic book movies he allows himself to like are ones that don't get ideas above their station, namely once that "are true to their genre" by aspiring to be nothing more than kiddie fluff. Any that "pretend" to have depth are nothing more than pretentious fanboy *********ion. Hence why he championed "Fantastic Four" as being superior to "Batman Begins", and why he has taken every opportunity to reiterate how underwhelmed he is about "The Dark Knight".
 
Before reading this article, there's some things you should know about Devin, its author, which are clear from his history on CHUD.

Namely, he thinks the superhero genre is stupid and juvenile. Thus, he has an intense hatred for any superhero comic that dares take itself seriously. He wrote this big rant a few months back called "Your Superhero Is Broken", basically saying that "The Dark Knight Returns" and "Watchman" killed the superhero genre, and they should have just stopped making superhero comics after that. The only reason they didn't is because the stupid fans wouldn't let go. Oh yes, he has a deep-seated disdain for the "homo-repressed teen-fascist fantasist losers" who read superhero comics, especially the ones who - God forbid! - think some can make for serious storytelling.

By extension, Devin has a bias against any comic book movie that tries to incorporate nuance and maturity into its characters and narrative. The only comic book movies he allows himself to like are ones that don't get ideas above their station, namely once that "are true to their genre" by aspiring to be nothing more than kiddie fluff. Any that "pretend" to have depth are nothing more than pretentious fanboy *********ion. Hence why he championed "Fantastic Four" as being superior to "Batman Begins", and why he has taken every opportunity to reiterate how underwhelmed he is about "The Dark Knight".

I stand by my previous statement then: what a *****ebag
 
Before reading this article, there's some things you should know about Devin, its author, which are clear from his history on CHUD.

Namely, he thinks the superhero genre is stupid and juvenile. Thus, he has an intense hatred for any superhero comic that dares take itself seriously. He wrote this big rant a few months back called "Your Superhero Is Broken", basically saying that "The Dark Knight Returns" and "Watchman" killed the superhero genre, and they should have just stopped making superhero comics after that. The only reason they didn't is because the stupid fans wouldn't let go. Oh yes, he has a deep-seated disdain for the "homo-repressed teen-fascist fantasist losers" who read superhero comics, especially the ones who - God forbid! - think some can make for serious storytelling.

By extension, Devin has a bias against any comic book movie that tries to incorporate nuance and maturity into its characters and narrative. The only comic book movies he allows himself to like are ones that don't get ideas above their station, namely once that "are true to their genre" by aspiring to be nothing more than kiddie fluff. Any that "pretend" to have depth are nothing more than pretentious fanboy *********ion. Hence why he championed "Fantastic Four" as being superior to "Batman Begins", and why he has taken every opportunity to reiterate how underwhelmed he is about "The Dark Knight".

You couldn't have told me this BEFORE I wrote my argument? I try to use my brain as little as possible.
 

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