Best action sequence in any comic book adaptation!!!!

[November Rain]

Yes, cause that's what I'm saying. [/sarcasm] At no point in my post did I say that I thought the fight was an accurate portrayal from the comics, just that the fact that I enjoyed the fight doesn't mean I'm not a fan. That's simply ridiculous. I would love for the fight to have gone down as you suggest, and I would LOVE even more if Spidey actually threw out a few qips here and there like in the comics. It doesn't mean that the fight wasn't entertaining for me to watch and in a general sense...well done. Was it accurate per the Spidey comics...not entirely. Do I give it the "best, most accurate fight" Gold medal....No. Did I enjoy seeing Spidey flipping around fighting with Ock...you bet! Doesn't mean I don't think the fight could have been done better...but I can enjoy it for what it is.

Nothing is ever going to be a perfect transfer from comic book to big screen. And I really see no point in whining about every little divergence from the source material...especially petty stuff like this.

The threads opener was asking about what fight was the best and most accurate. THere are plenty of other best fight threads out there about purely entertainment

so the reason why it is mentioned again and again when it's not an accurate depiction of their type of struggle underminds the thread itself.

if you're a fan of being entertained and a fan of comics then one factor will allow a compromise of certain elements of another with this specific fight but I don't get how any of the bouts they have show off either of the characters in a good light.

it's like lex and superman having a physical throwdown,or batman and the joker having a martial arts fight. Spidey has plenty of foes to throw down with, why demean ock so much to fill a non-existent void.

The worst thing is the hits provided nothing, they had no effect on ock which then underminds spidey (aunt hanging for dear life on verge of death, spidey playing tag with incredibly difficult person to hit but when he get the opportunity doesn't make the most of it).

it's just there.....for the sake of it...

same with spidey getting hit full on with the speed of two trains in 2.1 and jonah dressing up as spidey. They are just....there....for the sake of it.

that's what gets me, there's no thought process behind these changes, they are jsut there for the sake of it but everyone laps it up again....for the sake of it.... It's not like anyone has said 'wow, yeah ock should be getting tagged by spidey, it's evolution from the comics', it's overlooked.

why do something worse than the original for someone to not really give a monkeys about. It's not a financial reason, it's not an artistic reason, it's not a logical or character evolution reason, it's not a simplistic reason, it serves no purpose except from stopping a real good interaction happen.

 

[November Rain]

November Rain, you seem to be confused. You rip on SM2 for straying from the comic, specifically SM issue 3 (which is a very basic representation of Doc Ock). Railing about the unrealism. Then you talk about how the filmmakers take away the humanizing elements.

Comic writers added depth to characters like Dr. Octopus, Sandman and other characters later but in the golden age these characters were about as one dimensional as they get.

I submit to you that humanizing the characters and especially the villains is what Raimi did right. If we stuck to your formula of comicbook nazi purity we would have an hour and a half of SM battling a egomaniac Dr. Octopus who is evil for the sake of being evil. Character development would consist of SM whining about being a failure. The filmmakers brought realism to unrealistic characters.

Don't look down your nose at fans who have the imagination to except that Raimi was trying to adapt some of the better elements of the comics into a semirealistic adaptation and the challenges inherent in that task.

I just find ironic that a "true fan" of a work of fantasy as yourself is so rigid in his/her interpretation as to not accept an alternate vision of this beloved character.

Talk about naive!

you've completely misinterpreted my use of the word humanising

by that, I mean, 'not giving superhero resisitance to people who aren't supposed to have superhuman resistance'

i.e.

doctor doom
doctor octopus
aunt may (old lady hanging from umbrella)
mary jane (many scens of falling and hanging from stuff, especially drop onto tram in 1st spidey)
soldiers in hulk who survive crazy events


and anyone else who has had a superhero makeover just because...

the hyper reality universe they survive in takes away from their core interaction. Especially Doom's and Ocks.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea I've always wondered how the hell does Aunt May hold on! And with MJ, she seems to have super human strength as well!

 

[Obi-Ron]

It's called "gumption."

 

[November Rain]

i guess i'm a hypocrite, aunt may's hanging on doesn't annoy me as much as ock's adamantium jaw.

 

[david icke]

My favourite fight in all the Spidey films was the first fight with Harry. The build up, the score and the action was just brilliant. The bit where Harry throws him through the glass and he tries to catch the wedding ring was just pure Spiderman.

I really like that one too, I enjoyed it better on the big screen though as I couldn't tell the change over to CGI character as much as I do on dvd. I have watched it so many times though I need to take a break from it, maybe overexposure took it out of my top ten. That's the kind of Goblin fight I wanted from the first Spider-man, and considering what they pulled off in the scene where he's chasing the robber's car(can't describe him as Unc Ben's killer anymore), I don't see why they couldn't have done one going through the city.

Re: Doc Ock's super resistance. Yeah, that has bothered me sometimes, but then I can picture panels from comicbooks where he has taken punches from spidey during bouts and it didn't bother me then. I have no-prized it by saying that Doc Ock's conciousness is linked to his arms so maybe his arms have kept him awake where otherwise he would've been ko'd. But yes, his jaw would have been hanging off unless Spidey pulled his punches.

 

[huskerwebhead]

The threads opener was asking about what fight was the best and most accurate. THere are plenty of other best fight threads out there about purely entertainment

so the reason why it is mentioned again and again when it's not an accurate depiction of their type of struggle underminds the thread itself.

if you're a fan of being entertained and a fan of comics then one factor will allow a compromise of certain elements of another with this specific fight but I don't get how any of the bouts they have show off either of the characters in a good light.

it's like lex and superman having a physical throwdown,or batman and the joker having a martial arts fight. Spidey has plenty of foes to throw down with, why demean ock so much to fill a non-existent void.

The worst thing is the hits provided nothing, they had no effect on ock which then underminds spidey (aunt hanging for dear life on verge of death, spidey playing tag with incredibly difficult person to hit but when he get the opportunity doesn't make the most of it).

it's just there.....for the sake of it...

same with spidey getting hit full on with the speed of two trains in 2.1 and jonah dressing up as spidey. They are just....there....for the sake of it.

that's what gets me, there's no thought process behind these changes, they are jsut there for the sake of it but everyone laps it up again....for the sake of it.... It's not like anyone has said 'wow, yeah ock should be getting tagged by spidey, it's evolution from the comics', it's overlooked.

why do something worse than the original for someone to not really give a monkeys about. It's not a financial reason, it's not an artistic reason, it's not a logical or character evolution reason, it's not a simplistic reason, it serves no purpose except from stopping a real good interaction happen.

Trust me, I'm in your corner on this...somewhat. What I wouldn't give to hear Spidey's trademark humor during fights, or battle his way through Ock's defenses for that one good punch to knock him out. As much as people say they are mindful of the source and want to please the "fans," the fact is they are also trying to make it appealing to non-fans as well. Alot of it, unfortunately, is directors/studios/whoever assuming certain aspects won't translate from the books to the big screen, or in a way that "non-fans" will buy/understand. And yes, in most cases it's just being lazy, not wanting to spend the money for said effect, not wanting to spend the time explaining something, or simply believing they can do something a better way. Just cause we understand it and know how it should be, doesn't mean "non-fans" are going to feel the same way. Take the Organic Webbing as an example. I hate that idea...still do. But you talk to anyone who isn't a Spider-Man comic book reader and they look at you funny when you try and explain mechanical shooters. It doesn't make sense to them. And I'm sure you already know all of this...and your response is...that's no reason to lower their standards. No reason to be lazy...and no reason for us to have to compromise. I agree...but there is little I can do about it unless I make my own movie. I don't like it...and if I ever talked to Raimi I'll tell him that. If he asks me if I liked his fights I'd be sure to tell him how it should have been done (wisecracks, more spidersense, Ock down with one punch).

But my beef with what you were saying, the reason why I chimed in...was that you were saying if I liked that scene...then I was less of a fan. It seems silly to get worked up over that, but I did. Like if I wasn't as displeased as you were and disgusted by the scene...well then, I must not really understand or like Spider-Man. And that's BS. We're not getting the best possible product...I understand that...but the liberties they have taken thus far (up to Spidey2 anyways) don't seem THAT bad. Being able to sigh and shake my head at some things but still able to enjoy the movie for what it is doesn't make me less of a fan...it makes me a more patient fan. Ever hoping the next incarnation is that much better and more "accurate."

 

[The Joker]

Re: Doc Ock's super resistance. Yeah, that has bothered me sometimes, but then I can picture panels from comicbooks where he has taken punches from spidey during bouts and it didn't bother me then. I have no-prized it by saying that Doc Ock's conciousness is linked to his arms so maybe his arms have kept him awake where otherwise he would've been ko'd. But yes, his jaw would have been hanging off unless Spidey pulled his punches.

Yep, that's my theorey, too. The arms were A.I. and wired into his brain and central nervous system. Notice how Ock awakes right after the tentacles finish killing the doctors? It's like they willed him awake after they were done.

Of course Spidey pulls his punches. He's not a killer. He doesn't want to kill Ock, or permanently mutilate him or something.

 

[Hmarrs]

Yea that's what I think is missing from these Nolan films. None of the fights so far have that epic feel to them. I wanna see Batman throwing down on a rain swept Gotham rooftop or something, with a villain who can match him physically. Not just throwaway goons. We got a little taster in B.B against Ra's on the train, but Batman and Jokers final fight in TDK wasn't that brilliant. It was more just Joker smashing the **** out of him. I wanna see Batman take on someone who can match his martial arts skills, someone like Deathstroke

You know what is stupid about that?I'm not talking about your comment.Just the realization of it.

It's that when he fights someone who can match his skill then we will see it.
But in the meantime he struggles with every one else that can't?

Joker beats him down?Even when he fights the thugs they nail him every now and then.

But when he fights a good martial artist he will get good?

What does he adjust his skill based on who he is fighting?

This guy is weak so i'll fight weak or this guy is good so I better pick up my game.

That's why the fights are getting boring.
And don't tell me he has to get hit to make it interesting.Because I can watch Bruce lee films 100 times over and never get bored much less remmeber the people's tail he is kicking.Without them laying a glove.

He is so dynamic when he does it that it doesn't matter who he is beating up.Just the way he is beating them up.

When they do that with Batman that is when another skilled fighter will be interesting to watch because you say.Wow I have never seen Batman get beat like that before.But when you have seen it in all of his fights it get's to be "oh well".

Talk about inconsistancy.

 

[david icke]

Yep, that's my theorey, too. The arms were A.I. and wired into his brain and central nervous system. Notice how Ock awakes right after the tentacles finish killing the doctors? It's like they willed him awake after they were done.

Of course Spidey pulls his punches. He's not a killer. He doesn't want to kill Ock, or permanently mutilate him or something.

Yeah, you're right about that op scene, good call(edit:Have now just read the whole thread and saw you said that a few pages back, sorry.), and yeah, we see Spidey kicking and punching bank robbers, he would be taking it easy with Doc Ock too. Throwing two desks at him is something else entirely as his life was in danger there, in fact, something in that scene sometimes bothers me, the moment when Doc Ock is going to crush Spidey's skull in the bank, I think I would have to say Spidey's bone density was strengthened to withstand his ocko arms. Strong enough to withstand the arms for a couple of seconds anyway, after all his whole body is boosted to the proportionate strength of a Spider, his bones would need to be pretty damn strong to withstand all that swinging about.

 

[Chris Wallace]

But remember, Hmarr, he's the GD Batman. It's forgiveable when he's inconsistent. Just as long as nobody else does it.

 

[November Rain]

Trust me, I'm in your corner on this...somewhat. What I wouldn't give to hear Spidey's trademark humor during fights, or battle his way through Ock's defenses for that one good punch to knock him out. As much as people say they are mindful of the source and want to please the "fans," the fact is they are also trying to make it appealing to non-fans as well. Alot of it, unfortunately, is directors/studios/whoever assuming certain aspects won't translate from the books to the big screen, or in a way that "non-fans" will buy/understand. And yes, in most cases it's just being lazy, not wanting to spend the money for said effect, not wanting to spend the time explaining something, or simply believing they can do something a better way. Just cause we understand it and know how it should be, doesn't mean "non-fans" are going to feel the same way. Take the Organic Webbing as an example. I hate that idea...still do. But you talk to anyone who isn't a Spider-Man comic book reader and they look at you funny when you try and explain mechanical shooters. It doesn't make sense to them. And I'm sure you already know all of this...and your response is...that's no reason to lower their standards. No reason to be lazy...and no reason for us to have to compromise. I agree...but there is little I can do about it unless I make my own movie. I don't like it...and if I ever talked to Raimi I'll tell him that. If he asks me if I liked his fights I'd be sure to tell him how it should have been done (wisecracks, more spidersense, Ock down with one punch).

But my beef with what you were saying, the reason why I chimed in...was that you were saying if I liked that scene...then I was less of a fan. It seems silly to get worked up over that, but I did. Like if I wasn't as displeased as you were and disgusted by the scene...well then, I must not really understand or like Spider-Man. And that's BS. We're not getting the best possible product...I understand that...but the liberties they have taken thus far (up to Spidey2 anyways) don't seem THAT bad. Being able to sigh and shake my head at some things but still able to enjoy the movie for what it is doesn't make me less of a fan...it makes me a more patient fan. Ever hoping the next incarnation is that much better and more "accurate."

I'm not that bothered on the webshooters aspect as long as they work similarly, run out, can change consistency (maybe based on what he eats), can be used in an array of manners. Saying that, if they then do that, they have to show parker's genius in other formats and not forget it's a double sided coin.

Being a fan is irrelevant, there's forty/fifty years of history, no one can like every direction its gone in, it's just that broad.

saying this though if you are choosing to remake certain aspects of their initial encounter (aka an origin story) in another format, they you have to highlight the reasons why that origin made its impact. It's real simple translation.

Translate the essence and it doesn't matter what you do with everything else. if you translate the essence than the spirit of the character can shine through.

my problem is fans can quite easily forsake essence for entertainment. You only have to look at not only the hulk comics but the hulk genre. The essence of the bruce/hulk dynamic has now been turned into a 'Vs' culture where everyone (especially heroes) are getting weighed up against this unstoppable entity.

Again, the essence of parker has always been a character who secretly thought he was better than everyone else, and when given the opportunity walked over people. He had his coming and now he has to deal with the consequences of his actions. That's the lesson, that's the essence.

That again has been let down by raimi turning it into a love story where he's victimised by the ring announcer. The ring announcer didn't do crap to him in the comics. It was all internally motivated.

I myself find it hard for me to say i'm a comic fan and then have the media misrepresent what i enjoy. If the books were actually like the films, i wouldn't read spidey, dude's got no spine.

 

[November Rain]

Yep, that's my theorey, too. The arms were A.I. and wired into his brain and central nervous system. Notice how Ock awakes right after the tentacles finish killing the doctors? It's like they willed him awake after they were done.

Of course Spidey pulls his punches. He's not a killer. He doesn't want to kill Ock, or permanently mutilate him or something.

Alright i'll put this in your corner

You're strong enough to kill someone but you're controlled

you are also controlled enough to knock people out without killing them


your aunt nearly gets a safe door thrown at her head.
your aunt then gets kidnapped
your aunt is hanging for her dear life because you put her in danger
your uncle had died because you put him in danger for not acting
you chased your uncle's killer and 'allowed' him to kill himself because he hurt him
you got 'that' pissed

so your aunt is still hanging, you are on your way to help her but get dragged back

you get 11/12 good opportunities to punch him in the face
you drag him off the building while punching, kneeing and headbutting him (hardly restraint behaviour)

you knock him into a building and continue but you can't knock him out



so why does someone who can knock out young athlethic people with one hit (while posing for picks) struggle to knock out an old man when your only living relative's life is in the balance?

It just makes no sense...

 

[November Rain]

But remember, Hmarr, he's the GD Batman. It's forgiveable when he's inconsistent. Just as long as nobody else does it.

This is kinda what i was saying...

as soon as we found out in begins rachel was his reason for becoming batman, I found myself coming out of the film or the franchise...That's not the character's essence.

I'll give the dark knight's enjoyment solely down to harvey dent, everyone else was off but again it really doesn't mean anything as long as people are entertained.

why bother using the heroes in the first place if you aren't going to keep their essences, they are solely in to bring in an already established fan base and the big corporate fat cats know it.

 

[Hmarrs]

But remember, Hmarr, he's the ** Batman. It's forgiveable when he's inconsistent. Just as long as nobody else does it.

Oh and talking about inconsistancies for a moment.I know I am going to ruffle some feathers but so what.
In TDK Lucious tell's Batman after adapting his suit.
"There's a trade off.Seperating the plates will make you more vunerable to Knives and Gunshots right.

Okay because his first suit was all Armor protecting him from Knives and Guns right.

Then why in the heck was he stiching himself up from a freakin Dogbite in the beggining???!!!!
Are you telling me a Dog bite can penetrate more than a Knife or Gunshot??????
And don't even try telling me it was after the costume change.If that were the fact I could accept it.But it was before his first action scene actually and since I'm still talking about action scennes I'm still on topic.
What the heck did that Dog have?????
Again:Are you telling me a Dog bite can penetrate more than a knife or gunshot??????

 

[The Joker]

so why does someone who can knock out young athlethic people with one hit (while posing for picks) struggle to knock out an old man when your only living relative's life is in the balance?

It just makes no sense...

Old man? Since when is Ock an old man? He's in his late 40's to early 50's at the oldest. That is not an old man.

He can't knock Ock out. That's my theorey. The A.I. wired into his brain and central nervous system prevents Ock from losing consciousness. So unless Spidey wants to take Ock's head off, and he's not a killer, his bet bet is to subdue or hold Ock off long enough to save May.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Oh and talking about inconsistancies for a moment.I know I am going to ruffle some feathers but so what.
In TDK Lucious tell's Batman after adapting his suit.
"There's a trade off.Seperating the plates will make you more vunerable to Knives and Gunshots right.

Okay because his first suit was all Armor protecting him from Knives and Guns right.

Then why in the heck was he stiching himself up from a freakin Dogbite in the beggining???!!!!
Are you telling me a Dog bite can penetrate more than a Knife or Gunshot??????
And don't even try telling me it was after the costume change.If that were the fact I could accept it.But it was before his first action scene actually and since I'm still talking about action scennes I'm still on topic.
What the heck did that Dog have?????
Again:Are you telling me a Dog bite can penetrate more than a knife or gunshot??????

It's right on his elbow. It must be softer and less armoured there so he can bend his arms.

 

[huskerwebhead]

I myself find it hard for me to say i'm a comic fan and then have the media misrepresent what i enjoy. If the books were actually like the films, i wouldn't read spidey, dude's got no spine.

I'll bypass the rest simply because this is my only real issue here. And, I guess we just don't see things the same way here. I don't understand why it matters if the "media misrepresents" them and how that effects your fan status. The comics are still there, and you can always go back to them when you need to...when the other mediums don't live up to your expectations. That's where I became a fan and that's where I'll always return to for the best stories. I'm not putting the films on a pedestal, giving them a gold star, and saying "THIS IS SPIDER-MAN AT HIS BEST!!" I simply enjoyed the movie...which doesn't equate to saying anything about it's accuracy, or my status as a fan.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea but to be fair, this particular thread is about accuracy to the comics as well. The fight with Ock wasn't accurate to the comics. Was it exciting and explosive? Yea. Was it accurate to the source material? Neine!!

 

[Chris Wallace]

It's right on his elbow. It must be softer and less armoured there so he can bend his arms.

I'll buy that.
Here's one inconsistency that's been bugging me:
Batman has NO FAITH in the better nature of people, right? That's the reason why he became Batman. He believes that order must be enforced or chaos will take over. This man was forced to take action in broad daylight as Bruce Wayne in order to protect the life of a man who tried to blackmail him & then planned to out him on live TV. He did so after instructing Alfred to run a check on all cops to see if any of them had any loved ones in the hospital. Why? Because he felt that one of them might be likely to kill Coleman to offset the possibility that that loved one might get blown to Kingdom Come. And yet, he believed in his heart of hearts that a boat full of criminals-convicted criminals, many of whom he himself had taken down-wouldn't press a simple button to save their own lives? He has more faith in crooks than cops? He believed that a boat full of regular joes wouldn't be willing to do the same thing? That NOBODY on either side would press the button, knowing how likely the Joker was to kill them all?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Fair point that is. I'm stumped on that one, for the time being

 

[huskerwebhead]

Yea but to be fair, this particular thread is about accuracy to the comics as well. The fight with Ock wasn't accurate to the comics. Was it exciting and explosive? Yea. Was it accurate to the source material? Neine!!

Never disputed that.

 

[Jay#1]

Question on Wolverine vs Strryker.
I thought about that but I'm asking honestly now.Do you see that sequence as true Wolverine accuracy.
I couldn't.actually I couldn't see that in just about any of his action sequences with the exeption of his very first scene.
Just curious and if anyone else thinks so I would honestly like a response even if you disagree with me here.

Did I like it yes.Did I think it was true Wolverine comic adaptation?No.
In the comics he gives me a more brutal apperance and even a totally differant sense of fighting.In the movie it came of softer and lighter.Even his fight with Sabertooth in X-men I.Or his fight with the Chick at the end of II.I'm not just talking bloodier because I know they probably were going for a specific rating I'm talking skillfull wise as well.
It seemed it was missing it's edge.Same thing with Hulk vs.Abomination as far as accuracy is concerned.In comic scale it would have been magnified way beyond what we saw.
Did I like it yes.Was it accurate?No.I mean this is Hulk versus Abomination we should have seen buildings come down.I can't see a ful scale war between these two as being issulated to just a couple of blocks but it's obvious the Hulk power in this version was scaled down signifacantly.That why I have to go with Hulk I.Hulk versus Military for comic book accuracy.

You wack as hell!!! Was it authentic??? wtf?? it doesn't matter.

The Dark Knight- Batman saving the clown hostages in the prewitt building while beating up the swat team

X-Men 2- Wolverine against soldiers in mansion

X-Men 3- Wolverine vs Juggernaught

 

[Chris Wallace]

THis is a close second for me.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

You wack as hell!!! Was it authentic??? wtf?? it doesn't matter.

The Dark Knight- Batman saving the clown hostages in the prewitt building while beating up the swat team

X-Men 2- Wolverine against soldiers in mansion

X-Men 3- Wolverine vs Juggernaught

Read the thread. It does matter if it's authentic, that's the point of the thread. You muppet.