Comics birthright or man of steel

[SuperDaniel]

Man of Steel is a thousand times better. **** Pre-Crisis.

 

[King Krypton]

Exactly what point did this conversation turn into a bashing of MOS?

You bashed Birthright for invalidating MOS and allthat followed. MOS did the exact same thing to more than twice the history that Birthright undid.

If you're going to attack one for retconning a chunk of the history, you can't hold another blameless for the same thing. Both of them are guilty of the same offense.

 

[Spike_x1]

You seem to fail to realize that MOS is not responsible for erasing the pre-crisis adventures. The actual CRISIS is what erased those events. MOS just gave us a new origin on the clean slate that the Crisis on Infinite Earths gave to us.

With Birthright, there was no crisis that gave a clean slate to work with. There's simply continuity f-ups, plain and simple. Infinite Crisis is supposedly supposed to fix that, but until it or something else repairs the situation, continuity is still royally screwed up.

There is no blame to lay on MOS, because it is not responsible for restarting Superman's continuity. The only blame that can laid on MOS is for giving us an origin to go with the new universe.

 

[The Question]

Exactly. And, I must say, MoS was a vast improvement. To this day I do not understand why they even thought they needed Birthright. The continuity was fine the way it was.

 

[co2]

Yeah, isn't 20 years a little to early to feel the need to revamp the origin and continuity?

 

[Metropolis_Man]

Man of Steel definately. Byrne at his best!

 

[rnewbz]

yeah, i liek birthright because it's been the orgin for 20 yrs and i do'nt want messy continuity. But if they had made birthright 20 yrs. ago, it would be better. I think birthright is a better story and makes more sense and the fact i love smallville also helps, but birthright should'nt mess up continuity.

 

[TheFalcon]

I prefer Birthright. I like some of the Man of Steel things but stuff like the birthing matrix is just too weird. Why not have him arrive as a baby/young kid?

I like that Birthrigh used the elements that the public instantly thinks of as Superman's origin. The Lex in Smallville thing could have been avoided but I thought the way it was handled was interesting. The only thing I really don't like about Brithright is the aura/soul thing that Superman can see around people.

I wish that they could have incorporated the new origin in another way though. Maybe have a crossover in which the timeline gets screwed up by Darkseid/Brainiac or someone and then have that change Superman's past somehow.
The Superboy Prime punching explains it now, but it didn't come out until much later and even if it fixes many continuity changes/errors it's not a very good explanation.

 

[The Question]

I just hate how they wiped away several years worth of continuity (that, unlike pre-crisis, wasn't campy or stupid. The kept the non campy elements post-crisis, for the most part). So many plots no longer make any sense:


The Cyborg Superman doesn't make sense, since his body was formed from the birthing matrix.

Lex Luthor's childhood rivalry with Perry White that resulted in a fair between Lex and Perry's wife that resulted in the birth of Perry's son, who is in actuality Lex's son, is gone now, since Perry's wife is probably twice the age of post Rebirth Lex and Perry's son is pobably the same age as post Rebirth Lex.

Lex getting cancer doesn't make any sense, since how could Lex get cancer from Kryptonite, and yet expose all of Metropolis to Kryptonite radiation and have no one suffer ill effects?

And finally, the fact that they had Lex living in Smallville and losing his hair in a lab accident as what happened in Pre-Crisis is lame. Pre-Rebirth Lex was cool. He was a self made megalomaniac. Now? It's just ruined, I'd say.


I'd have no problems with Rebirth if it were an elsworlds or a sort of Ultimate Superman story. But no, It's now cannon.

 

[rnewbz]

Lex getting cancer doesn't make any sense, since how could Lex get cancer from Kryptonite, and yet expose all of Metropolis to Kryptonite radiation and have no one suffer ill effects?

Because the people in the city were not exposed to the krytonite for a long period of time. Lex wore the ring for years, which is what gave him cancer.

 

[The Question]

Yeah. But Lex only had a small ring. The city was bathed in radiation.

 

[Spike_x1]

Exposure to one very small fragment of kryptonite for several years would not be equal to the amount of radiation that would have been pouring out of LexCorp Towers, covering the entire city for hours, which were also powerful enough to focus into concentrated holograms.

 

[Spike_x1]

I prefer Birthright. I like some of the Man of Steel things but stuff like the birthing matrix is just too weird. Why not have him arrive as a baby/young kid?

You're talking about a comic where a man dresses with his underwear on the outside, can levitate himself on a whim, and shoot fire from his eyes, but you think something like the birthing matrix was too weird? Even if it fit in seamlessly with the germophobic nature of Krypton?

The entire point of Byrne introducing the birthing matrix was to make Superman technically born on earth. To symbolically humanize him more.

 

[TheFalcon]

You're talking about a comic where a man dresses with his underwear on the outside, can levitate himself on a whim, and shoot fire from his eyes, but you think something like the birthing matrix was too weird? Even if it fit in seamlessly with the germophobic nature of Krypton?

The entire point of Byrne introducing the birthing matrix was to make Superman technically born on earth. To symbolically humanize him more.

If you want to put it that way you can make anything sound weird.

I didn't like the whole germophobic and birthing matrix thing. A machine that grows a fetus? And if you think about it Superman wasn't even technically born at all. He was just grown inside a machine.

I just don't understand the point of him being "born" on earth. What's the point of trying to make him more human when a big point of the character is that he is an alien who grew up amongst humans?
Using the birthing matrix means that Superman has never even been on Krypton at all. The whole thing just felt very unneeded to me.

 

[Spike_x1]

If you want to put it that way you can make anything sound weird.

The fact is that the entire concept of Superman is weird. You were simply singling out one part of the character's history as if its weirdness was uncommon.

I didn't like the whole germophobic and birthing matrix thing. A machine that grows a fetus? And if you think about it Superman wasn't even technically born at all. He was just grown inside a machine.

I just don't understand the point of him being "born" on earth. What's the point of trying to make him more human when a big point of the character is that he is an alien who grew up amongst humans?

He still is an alien who grew up around humans. What part of MOS changed that?

Using the birthing matrix means that Superman has never even been on Krypton at all. The whole thing just felt very unneeded to me.

That is exactly the point Byrne was trying to make. Superman is regularly referred to as "the most human of us all" and the birthing matrix symbolized that point. Why would Superman need to have been on Krypton at all? What purpose could that serve in a story besides to take away from the whole schtick of "the most human despite being an alien"?

 

[TheFalcon]

He still is an alien who grew up around humans. What part of MOS changed that? That is exactly the point Byrne was trying to make. Superman is regularly referred to as "the most human of us all" and the birthing matrix symbolized that point. Why would Superman need to have been on Krypton at all? What purpose could that serve in a story besides to take away from the whole schtick of "the most human despite being an alien"?

I think the "most human despite being an alien" thing is very important for the character. He sets an example for the humans by saying that if he, an alien, can become such a good "human being", then it should be even easier for all humans to do the same.

And I don't like seperating Superman from Krypton as much as Byrne wanted.
Superman was the last child of the planet Krypton, and IMO having him being "born" on Earth by a machine ruins some of that. He is the Last Kryptonian, but he doesn't really have any connections to Krypton. He could just as well have been a normal human with some mutant genes that gave him some powers.
I feel the whole thing takes something away from the character and his story. Having him be born on Krypton and meeting his parents, even if he doesn't remember it, works much better IMO.

By the way, If he was born on Earth is he actually an alien?

 

[The Question]

Why? How does that make him any more connected to Krypton? He still wouldn't remember Krypton at all.

 

[TheFalcon]

Why? How does that make him any more connected to Krypton? He still wouldn't remember Krypton at all.

If he has been on Krypton he would be more connected than if he was not, but I understand that Superman probably wouldn't care about it because, as you said, he wouldn't remember it.

It's more of an importance to the whole story and character of Superman. I think it takes something away from that.

And since you continue to ask why I want him more connected to Krypton, why not?
The story of Superman is that he is the last kryptonian, was sent to earth and grew up amongst humans. Everybody who knows the character knows that. So why did Byrne change him?
I just don't understand the point of trying to make him even more human. He was already a better human than most actual humans.
Why go to the length of changing an origin that even people who haven't read a comic in their entire life knows?

 

[Spike_x1]

I think the "most human despite being an alien" thing is very important for the character. He sets an example for the humans by saying that if he, an alien, can become such a good "human being", then it should be even easier for all humans to do the same.

That's exactly what Man of Steel concreted for the character and was the precise point that Byrne was trying to make.

And I don't like seperating Superman from Krypton as much as Byrne wanted.
Superman was the last child of the planet Krypton, and IMO having him being "born" on Earth by a machine ruins some of that. He is the Last Kryptonian, but he doesn't really have any connections to Krypton. He could just as well have been a normal human with some mutant genes that gave him some powers.
I feel the whole thing takes something away from the character and his story. Having him be born on Krypton and meeting his parents, even if he doesn't remember it, works much better IMO.

No connections? He still has the combination of both his parents' genes the same way any child would get. It's just that, instead of his mother's womb, he developed in the matrix. He was still cared for and loved by his parents.

By the way, If he was born on Earth is he actually an alien?

I would say so, since his DNA isn't mutated and it's definitely not human, so what would you call it?

If he has been on Krypton he would be more connected than if he was not, but I understand that Superman probably wouldn't care about it because, as you said, he wouldn't remember it.

It's more of an importance to the whole story and character of Superman. I think it takes something away from that.

But how could it possibly be an importance to the story and character if he doesn't remember any of it? Where is the sense of importance that you refer to?

And since you continue to ask why I want him more connected to Krypton, why not?
The story of Superman is that he is the last kryptonian, was sent to earth and grew up amongst humans. Everybody who knows the character knows that. So why did Byrne change him?

Byrne did not change any of that. Superman is still the last Kryptonian. He was still sent to earth and he still grew up amongst humans? Where is the change?

I just don't understand the point of trying to make him even more human. He was already a better human than most actual humans.

You do understand symbolism, right?

I think the very last page of MOS summed up everything that Superman is about and what he should always be about.

"Krypton bred me, but it was earth that gave me all I am. All that matters. It was Krypton that made me Superman, but it is earth that makes me human!!"

Superman shouldn't be about focusing on a dead planet, but rather about valuing what Earth gives him. Putting unneeded emphasis on Krypton takes away Superman's focus on Earth and makes the character less humanized.

 

[The Question]

Exactly. Superman may respect Krypton and his heratige, but it's not really that important to him. In his mind, he is Clark Joseph Kent, the son of two Kansas farmers who's always had a knack for writing and just happens to be a super powered alien.

 

[Eros]

John Bryne superman is fine, but i think most people just ignore the "birthing matrix" thing. People usually just say superman was sent to earth as a baby. I always assumed they retconned the "birthing matrix" nosense years ago. Who the hell even uses the birth matrix thing.....not the cartoon version of superman, not the movies, and not smallville its officially been retconned in most peoples minds.

 

[krpton2]

Birthright.

 

[KaptainKrypton]

I like either for different reasons. They're both solid Superman literature to me as I feel they paint a background picture of my fav'rit. There are certain things I didn't like about Byrne's Krypton (namely the sterility of it). I didn't mind what was done in a lot of the other places in Byrne's origin (meeting with Lois, Batman, etc.). I liked the stories in Birthright that revolved around his years leading up to donning the costume, and I liked the look and feel of Waid's Krypton a bit more as it gave me a better impression that Superman would hold pride in his heritage, and not have to have Jonathan Kent hit the remains of it with a shovel to get it out of Superman's mind. I for some odd reason, don't like that fact that the Kents survived in either incarnation. I guess I'm just old-fashioned and have seen the movies too many times, but I like that feeling of isolation he gets when he moves to Metropolis, as opposed to being able to fly back to Kansas on a whim and talk things over with the folks. I'm just nitpicky, I guess.

 

[dr collossus]

Byrne's Sperman was the most logically consistent incarnation there had been. That's why there needed to be a revamp a la COIE. Before MoS, there wasn't really a definitive, coherent Superman, just a mishmash of different interpretations to suit whatever story they wanted to tell.

 

[The Question]

John Bryne superman is fine, but i think most people just ignore the "birthing matrix" thing. People usually just say superman was sent to earth as a baby. I always assumed they retconned the "birthing matrix" nosense years ago. Who the hell even uses the birth matrix thing.....not the cartoon version of superman, not the movies, and not smallville its officially been retconned in most peoples minds.

Doesn't hurt anything either. And it led to the whole deal with the Cyborg Superman and the destruction of Coast City.