birthright or man of steel

Discussion in 'The Comics' started by rnewbz, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. rnewbz

    rnewbz More human than human

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    i have read both these and thought they were great but is man of steel no longer in continuity, because i'm confused with all the issues it has with birthright.
     
  2. KaptainKrypton

    KaptainKrypton Registered

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    It was retconned, or for a simpler word, disregarded as the true origin of Superman in modern continuity.
     
  3. TheFalcon

    TheFalcon Registered

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    Yeah, Birthright is now the offical origin of Superman. It's all supposed to be explained in the Infinite Crisis Secret Files issue, along with every continuity error since COIE if I remember correctly (there was an interview on Newsarama a while ago but I can't find it right now).
     
  4. newmexneon

    newmexneon Registered

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    **** Birthright.
     
  5. GyLocke

    GyLocke Registered

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    :up:

    Seriously, what's up with Lex "Fairy Princess" Luthor?
     
  6. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    Birthright destroyed one of my favorite aspects of the Superman mythos. Lex Luthor had an afair with Perry White's wife and got her pregnant for the simple reason that he really doesn't like Perry. But, unfortunately, after Birthright, that has been washed away from continuity.
     
  7. TheFalcon

    TheFalcon Registered

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    What in Birthright contradicts that? Couldn't it have happened at a later time?
    Technically Birthright makes the way Superman returned after being dead impossible, but it's not like DC have taken that story out of continuity because of it.

    I think some of the Birthright/Man of Steel conflict problems (as well as other continuity problems) will be explained in Infinite Crisis (the Secret Files issue probably) as there having been a glitch in the DC Universe after Crisis on Infinite Earths or something which changed "reality" without anyone noticing/remembering it.
     
  8. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    The reason for that story is because Lex and perry knew each other and hated each other in high school. And, Perry's son is in his twenties. Lex is now supposed to be the same age as Clark (roughly). I hardly think Perry's wife would have cheated on him with a teenage kid from Smallville.
     
  9. Kurosawa

    Kurosawa Registered

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    I don't care for either one, although Birthright is closer to the Earth-One version, so it's less offensive to me.
     
  10. hulkamania85

    hulkamania85 Registered

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    Is the original reason for Robin leaving Batman out of continuity too now that Nightwing Year One is out?
     
  11. rnewbz

    rnewbz More human than human

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    when was nightwing year one out of continuity? If this is true DC needs to get themselves together before we have another crisis....oops never mind
     
  12. Agentdemon

    Agentdemon Registered

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    Birthright retconned most of MOS but not all.
     
  13. rnewbz

    rnewbz More human than human

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    Well, if I remeber correctly MOS takes place over two yrs. Birthright could fit in somehow...but then some parts could'nt work out, like Clark's little kryptonian computer from BR
     
  14. Spike_x1

    Spike_x1 Get off my bandwagon!

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    Indeed. :up:

    I loved Birthright as a stand alone story, but when you actually try to replace MOS with it, then BR can go to hell for all I care.

    With BR being the new origin, it invalidates almost all of what happened during the 80's and most of the 90's.

    The whole "Lex Luthor clone" story and everything that came out of it no longer works since it's impossible to believe that Luthor could get cancer from a simple ring while he goes around broadcasting an entire web of kryptonite energy over Metropolis without anyone else becoming ill.

    The Cyborg no longer works because he was a direct result of the birthing matrix.

    B-13 is also sketchy since, in BR, Metropolis seemed to already be at the level of technology it achieved with Brainiac 13 (twin LexCorp towers, hovering tech, etc).

    And Metallo's claim of having the only known piece of kryptonite is extremely hard to believe now.

    When you look at all of that, then look at the cause and effect of all of those retcons, you can kiss a very large chunk of post-crisis Superman continuity goodbye.

    And let it be said, the only thing that I actually like about BR more than MOS is that the \S/ is a kryptonian symbol (even though BR really took efforts to drive that fact down our throats) rather than a design by John and Clark.
     
  15. King Krypton

    King Krypton Registered

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    MoS invalidated 48 years worth of Superman stories. Why not rip on it for disregarding more than twice the history Birthright replaces?

    Besides, very little of the Byrne-Jurgens version has stuck to the overall mythos. Tycoon Lex and the Kents being alive are all that's stuck. Everything else has been bypassed in favor of a more pre-Crisis conception of Superman. And a lot of the what was done in the Byrne-Jurgens era (as well as the Berganza era) was really awful, or at the very least misguided. If the goofier aspects of the pre-Crisis era can and have been bypassed, why should 1986-1999 be inviolate?
     
  16. Spike_x1

    Spike_x1 Get off my bandwagon!

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    Exactly what point did this conversation turn into a bashing of MOS? Sure MOS invalidated Superman's pre-crisis history in favor of a more grounded (yet still sci-fi) reality (that was its purpose afterall), but Birthright restarts everything all over again if you want to count it as the new origin. Batman Year One accomplished the same thing as MOS and it doesn't take any s**t for erasing the wacky "Gee Golly, Batman" days. If DC published an updated origin for Batman that erased all of his post-crisis adventures, no matter how well written it is, it'd probably be met with the same criticism as BR is being met with.
    But it's all still in continuity. Writers are still free to reference those events if they want to, but BR being the origin would change that.
    You are by far in the minority with that belief. Yes, a few of the things they had Superman do were iffy, but the pros far, far, far outweigh the cons. Besides, I'd rather have the worst of their mistakes over the worst of the mistakes of the pre-crisis Superman.
    Because then you have no Metallo, no Cyborg, no Jerome Luthor, no B-13, no green kryptonite-induced cancer. And the effects of those retcons can spread throughout the DCU if they're put into practice;
    -No Cyborg means that Coast City wasn't destroyed so Hal Jordan couldn't have gone crazy and became Parallex, and it also makes you wonder about what happened after Doomsday killed Superman if one of his replacement Supermen was missing from continuity.
    -No kryptonite radiation poisoning means that Lex had no reason to trade his soul to Neron for a new body and leaves the Underworld Unleashed story missing most of its basic cohesion and structure, which drastically effects villains all over the DCU and their dealings with Neron.
    -No B-13 means that Brainiac 13's technology shouldn't exist in the current DCU, which would make the OMACs impossible to explain, and the virus in Barbara Gordon's body that's restoring the feeling in her legs seemingly coming out of nowhere.

    The repercussions of retconing MOS in favor of BR means that not only Superman's personal continuity needs restarting, but a very sizable portion of the rest of the DCU's stories need to be recalibrated in order to fit.
     
  17. newmexneon

    newmexneon Registered

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    Well said. I agree the story was not that bad but the fact that it's supposed to replace so much really pissed me off.
     
  18. Cartoonics

    Cartoonics Registered

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    Continuity issues aside, which do you prefer as a stand-alone origin story?

    Just curious. I haven't read many Superman comics, though I'm quite familiar with the first two Superman films and the 1990s animated series. I've just read BR, and thought it was fantastic. With continuity as a non-issue, what (if anything) makes MOS better?
     
  19. dr collossus

    dr collossus I've been expecting you

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    Er...who cares? Superman isn't real, its not like arguing over factual details of history. Take each story arc in the context of its own continuity, and enjoy it for what it is. Don't get me wrong, it's MoS for me all the way, and lord knows it brings a nostalgic tear to my eyes every time I think about the fact that the late 80s/early 90s days of Superman comics are over, but hey, maybe DC will come up with something that will impress me more.
     
  20. The Question

    The Question Objectivism doesn't work.

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    But the character has a history and a continuity. Completely ignoring that is just plain irrisponsible.
     
  21. Super Kal

    Super Kal Proud Conservative

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    Man of Steel all the way.
     
  22. Super Kal

    Super Kal Proud Conservative

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    he he, I like the way you think. :up:
     
  23. Kevin Roegele

    Kevin Roegele Do you mind if I don't?

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    I consider Man of Steel the definitive version of Superman. Birthright is an attempt to mix a lot of disparate elements and influences, including Smallville, pre and post crisis continuity, and so on. Man of Steel was a clean slate, no mixed messages, no previous continuity; the purest, strongest version of Superman possible, with all the crap removed.
     
  24. dr collossus

    dr collossus I've been expecting you

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    :up: :up:
     
  25. hulkamania85

    hulkamania85 Registered

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    It isn't. I meant out as in released. So is Robin's original reason for leaving out of continuity? I thought DC was going to fix its continuity problems.
     

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