Whirlysplat
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Daisy said:
How is body modification different? Perhaps it's the psychological links to self abuse and other disorders of self like anorexia.
- Whirly
Body Modification is a strange thing
- Thread starter Whirlysplat
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How is body modification different? Perhaps it's the psychological links to self abuse and other disorders of self like anorexia.
- Whirly
Whirlysplat said:
So you're arguing that self-abuse is the norm in some societies?
The article you posted makes absolutely no reference to piercing or implanting as types of self-harm. I'd say your evidence for 'links' to 'self-abuse' is pretty weak.
What it does say is that the point of self-harm (things like 'cutting') is to cause yourself pain. The goal of implants or piercing isn't the pain (in most cases), it's the change in look. There's a pretty distinct difference.
jaguarr
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Whirly, you're referencing two separate works there. The first one, I'm not sure of because you don't give the title. The second, "Self-Harm: Cutting The Bad Out Of Me" really doesn't have anything to do with body mofification as a cultural movement and has more to do with unhealthy expressions of negative emotion and self-attack. If you're trying to tie the two together, I have to say I not only vehemently disagree with your supposition but I'm offended by it.
jag
jag
Whirlysplat
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Daisy said:
Actually in those societies the abuse is often enforced and ritualised and to show the superiority of one group over another. Often on sexual lines.
http://www.burmalibrary.org/reg.burma/archives/199401/msg00050.html
Disatisfaction with self is common in all societies. Many people argue the link I propose in certain cases.
Here's an informative book on the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801853001/102-9814288-9600139?v=glance&n=283155
Obviously numerous reasons exist for bodymodification, hatred of "self" and "tribal belonging" are only two.
- Whirly
jaguarr
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For every article and book someone can conjur up about how body-modification is about abnormality, I can find one that says it's about self-expression and is healthy for the human psyche:
http://www.louisville.edu/~smwalk06/revisedpaper4.htm
Body Modification Promotes Self-Expression Not Rebellion
Eyebrow hoops. Sparkling earrings line earlobes. Nostril studs and tongue rings. Arms and backs filled with elaborate and original tattoos. Each of these are different variations of the ways that people use the art of body modification to express themselves creatively. In our modern world filled with cellular telephones, war protests, fast cars, and busy schedules, piercings, tattoos, and other forms of body modification are quickly becoming increasingly popular. Teenagers and adults alike, mostly young adults, are heading to body art shops everywhere, handing over well-earned money to an incredibly lucrative business. Body art shops are appearing everywhere, eager to make money while jabbing and piercing customers with incredibly sharp needles. Most non-pierced or non-tattooed people who do not understand the motives behind would agree that people are heading to these needle factories in order to claim their rebellious identities. This is generally not true. The most common motivation for body modification is definitely not a rebellious one, but rather one that stems from self-expression.
Before the late 1970’s and early 1980’s punk rock movement, the only people who had even considered tattooing or piercing their bodies in any place besides the classic earlobe piercing, were sailors and those young people considered “rebellious,” “unruly,” or “the bad seeds.” Tattoo.com also claims that “tattooing was widely practiced among seamen, laborers and convicts during the first part of the nineteenth century.” Because in the past the majority of people who tattooed themselves were part of the lower class, the older generation of adults has always seen the acts of following generations as senseless acts of rebellion. However, this generalization has proven to be false. Young people have nearly always used their bodies and means of fashion to rebel against their parents’ generation. Although, the “ideal” rebel does indeed don piercings and/or tattoos, the majority of those who decorate themselves with the puncture of various needles do so purely out of creativity and individual self-expression.
Lead singer of the punk rock band The Sex Pistols, Sid Vicious, lead a generation of young people into adorning their bodies with ink designs and shiny metal hoops. Followers of Sid Vicious used such methods to show their support for their favorite chosen genre of music, punk rock. Their body art was used to express a part of who they were. In this case, lovers of punk rock music.
Eric Gans, author of an article entitled “The Body Sacrificial” which can be found in the book The Body Aesthetic: From Fine Art to Body Modification explores the idea of those who pierce, tattoo, or modify one’s body for erotic reasons. He poses the question to Internet explorers “In what ways can a piercing enhance sexuality?” One response he received from a woman named Casey offered explanations as to why she had her clitoris pierced. She suggested that being pierced in a sexually arousing area, such as the nipple, clitoral hood, or penis, brings attention to that area of the body, causing one to “become more orgasmic.” One’s sexuality is personal and is a huge part of our humanity. This makes piercing and tattooing of the genitalia and sexuality a component of self-expression through sexuality.
In addition to sexual motivation, Gans claims that those motivated to get themselves pierced view body art as much more than an everyday experience, but rather “a unique experience of significance.” He says that piercings cannot be compared to one’s fixation with replaceable objects such as makeup or shoes, but that “these traditional signs of nubility merely ornament the body, whereas piercing irreversibly marks it.” I agree with him. I believe that those wishing to be pierced, or who are pierced, crave some form of self-expression that is a bit more permanent than a way of putting on makeup or a certain fashionable style to express oneself. That being pierced or tattooed can somehow fill such a void. Gans supports this claim by stating that one “who proudly enumerates her fifteen piercings would not do the same for her blue jeans or even her gold jewelry.”
Although those who pierce themselves in this area can be considered rebellious since such piercings are not as common as other piercings, many people do not even think about rebellion as a reason to get themselves pierced. The website www.nyyouth2000.com interviewed young people in New York on the reasons why they had themselves pierced. The number one reason for being pierced was not one out of rebellion or uprising against authority figures or parents, but rather “out of self-expression.” There were four different reasons that were given by the various youths as to why they had pierced or tattooed themselves. Each worded one way or another, none of them claiming rebellion as an explanation as to why they indulged in the wondrous world of body modification
Some think that the world of the pierced and tattooed is a relatively new one, sweeping high school and college campuses alike with this fervently addictive obsession. That the “rebellious” attitude that is thought to be motivation behind this body modification movement has recently begun with the punk rock revolution of the 1970’s. Little do the non-pierced, uninformed, and sometimes uptight anti-body art community know they are indeed incorrect. Tattooing, piercing, and other forms of body modification can be found in numerous cultures around the world throughout history of many of these different cultures in which such body modification exists. Body modification is so old, its origin cannot even be traced. It is such an ancient and traditional practice, historians cannot even date the earliest culture who used body modification as expression. Thus, tattooing and piercing has been used throughout many cultures for various reasons. Some examples of rationale for cultures to participate in body modification throughout history may include cultural self-expression, hunting purposes as well as ceremonies and rituals.
“The University of Pennsylvania’s Museum of Archeology and Anthropology displays a 4000 year-old clay figurine from Iran with multiple pierced ears as well as earplugs” (Ortiz). Cortez and his fellow Spanish conquistadors found tattoos and piercings on the bodies of the ancient Mexican civilization, the Mayans. They found that “tattooing was widely practiced by the natives of Central America. They arrived on the coast of Mexico in 1519 where they found the Mayans worshiping gods through idols and statues. They would tattoo themselves in order to “commemorate their achievements in battle.” The idea that people had actually modified their bodies by jabbing needles through and rubbing ink in their wounds absolutely horrified the Spaniards, who, misunderstanding the motivation for the Mayans inking, immediately assumed that the tattooing was the work of Satan. In addition to the various tattoos that the Mayans displayed proudly on their bodies, they also temporarily pierced their tongues in order to participate in ceremonies in which their bodies were purified and to commune with the spirits of their ancestors (Ortiz). The Mayans did not have a reason to tattoo or pierce themselves out of any sort of rebellion. Whom did they have to rebel against? Before Cortez and the other Spaniards came along, they had no one besides themselves and their leaders to look up to. They worshiped various gods, but tattooed and pierced themselves as a way to pay homage to the gods. This culture did not know of rebellion until the conquistadors. They tattooed themselves in order to convey a message about themselves. They were expressing a part of who they were. Because a large part of who they were was being a warrior, they chose to express themselves as such (Tattoo.com).
Throughout history, the vast and intricate world of tattooing and piercing has expanded itself, moving to more and more cultures who have lost the ceremonial and complex meanings to body modification. Instead, the body art communities around the modern world have grown to a larger population of people who share an important common bond: the need to express themselves. Meet Dave Haskell, “the human pincushion.” Dave owns his own piercing shop. While many piercing shops incorporate tattooing into their elaborate works of art, Dave’s shop is exclusively piercings. Dave performs on a regular basis in body piercing shows. These shows involve piercing long spears and hooks through the skin and suspending the body through hooks that are additionally displayed as they are inserted with precision into the skin. Dave uses his shows and his shop as his personal form of expression. "Piercing and body modification is a spiritual experience for me," Haskell explains. "It's like going to heaven and hell at the same time. Especially during my performances, the intense physical sensations lead me to a place of deep contentment and meditative quiet. By pushing my body to the limit, I take my mind and soul beyond the here and now. I feel very calm and purged after a show.” Dave is an example of one who was influenced by the punk rock movement mentioned earlier in this paper. His first piercing being a safety pin in his earlobe, he quickly learned the do’s and do not’s of the obscure world of piercing. He learned that safety pins contain “inappropriate metals to use for a piercing.” Haskell agrees that body modification is a movement that is influenced most definitely and solely an expression of self. “That's really what I enjoy most -- helping people to feel beautiful by their own definition, and creating a safe and friendly environment for them to accomplish that” (Weiner).
Involvement in body modification is not something that has to be as extreme as Haskell’s experience with body art. It can be as simple as having one’s ears pierced, or getting a little tattoo on one’s body. Whatever the reason, society should not dismiss body art as merely petty rebellion. The majority of people who are involved in the long time tradition of body modification are generally serious about what is done to their bodies and do not claim their motivations as rebellious ones. Such people would turn their noses at the thought that their beautifully intricate designs were created out of vain. As someone who is thoroughly involved in the ever growing community of body modification, I feel that it is an art, and those who use that art in the name of rebellion are doing so in vain. People who dismiss fine art in the form of tattoos or piercings as various forms of rebellion do not understand that it is indeed a form of fine art. It should be appreciated as a form of art that should be valued and treated with dignity and respect. Making permanent changes to one’s body is not a game. So I would tell someone that believes that body art is most certainly a form of rebellion that if I wanted to rebel against society I would most certainly not alter my God-given body in such a vain form. I would stray from common and ordinary practices such as opening a checking account and stopping at stop signs, or even buying a car. I would walk everywhere and never buy a cell phone. I definitely do not think that superficial forms of rebellion are effective or even convey a valid meaning. Body modification for the sake of rebellion is not something to be taken for face value. It is permanent and should begin with a well-thought out decision making process in which one decides exactly what form of body art and on which part of his or her body is the best place and design for that individual. It respects the people throughout history who used the same methods on their bodies to pay worship to those they venerated. Body modification is a practice of respect and historical value, not rebellion and revolution.
Works Cited
Ortiz, Janid. "Body Piercing- Evolution or Revolution?” Tribalectic.com. 2001. Tribalectic EZine. 12April2003. < http://www.tribalectic.com/EZine.asp>.
Weiner, Lori. “Meet Happy Dave, The Human Pincushion.” Sun-Sentinel.com. Posted April 17 2003. 18April2003. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/cu...ppydave,0,4514263.story?coll=sfla-news-fringe
Gilbert, Stephen G. Tattoo History: A Source Book,. Tattoos.com EZine. “Tattoo History Source Book: South America.” http://www.tattoos.com/jane/steve/south_america.htm
Parvaz, D. “Body modification: Devotees of this undergroud style speak out.” Seattle
Post. 11April 2003. Seattle Post. 18April2003.
<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lifestyle/116874_bodmod.html>.
Gans, Eric. "The Body Sacrificial." 159-178.
Siebers, Tobin. " The New Art." 217-242.Tobin Siebers, ed. The Body Aesthetic: From Fine Art to Body Modification. University of Michigan Press: University of Michigan, 2000.
I guess it all really boils down to going and finding scholarly articles and papers that support one's personal viewpoints on the subject, doesn't it?
jag
http://www.louisville.edu/~smwalk06/revisedpaper4.htm
Body Modification Promotes Self-Expression Not Rebellion
Eyebrow hoops. Sparkling earrings line earlobes. Nostril studs and tongue rings. Arms and backs filled with elaborate and original tattoos. Each of these are different variations of the ways that people use the art of body modification to express themselves creatively. In our modern world filled with cellular telephones, war protests, fast cars, and busy schedules, piercings, tattoos, and other forms of body modification are quickly becoming increasingly popular. Teenagers and adults alike, mostly young adults, are heading to body art shops everywhere, handing over well-earned money to an incredibly lucrative business. Body art shops are appearing everywhere, eager to make money while jabbing and piercing customers with incredibly sharp needles. Most non-pierced or non-tattooed people who do not understand the motives behind would agree that people are heading to these needle factories in order to claim their rebellious identities. This is generally not true. The most common motivation for body modification is definitely not a rebellious one, but rather one that stems from self-expression.
Before the late 1970’s and early 1980’s punk rock movement, the only people who had even considered tattooing or piercing their bodies in any place besides the classic earlobe piercing, were sailors and those young people considered “rebellious,” “unruly,” or “the bad seeds.” Tattoo.com also claims that “tattooing was widely practiced among seamen, laborers and convicts during the first part of the nineteenth century.” Because in the past the majority of people who tattooed themselves were part of the lower class, the older generation of adults has always seen the acts of following generations as senseless acts of rebellion. However, this generalization has proven to be false. Young people have nearly always used their bodies and means of fashion to rebel against their parents’ generation. Although, the “ideal” rebel does indeed don piercings and/or tattoos, the majority of those who decorate themselves with the puncture of various needles do so purely out of creativity and individual self-expression.
Lead singer of the punk rock band The Sex Pistols, Sid Vicious, lead a generation of young people into adorning their bodies with ink designs and shiny metal hoops. Followers of Sid Vicious used such methods to show their support for their favorite chosen genre of music, punk rock. Their body art was used to express a part of who they were. In this case, lovers of punk rock music.
Eric Gans, author of an article entitled “The Body Sacrificial” which can be found in the book The Body Aesthetic: From Fine Art to Body Modification explores the idea of those who pierce, tattoo, or modify one’s body for erotic reasons. He poses the question to Internet explorers “In what ways can a piercing enhance sexuality?” One response he received from a woman named Casey offered explanations as to why she had her clitoris pierced. She suggested that being pierced in a sexually arousing area, such as the nipple, clitoral hood, or penis, brings attention to that area of the body, causing one to “become more orgasmic.” One’s sexuality is personal and is a huge part of our humanity. This makes piercing and tattooing of the genitalia and sexuality a component of self-expression through sexuality.
In addition to sexual motivation, Gans claims that those motivated to get themselves pierced view body art as much more than an everyday experience, but rather “a unique experience of significance.” He says that piercings cannot be compared to one’s fixation with replaceable objects such as makeup or shoes, but that “these traditional signs of nubility merely ornament the body, whereas piercing irreversibly marks it.” I agree with him. I believe that those wishing to be pierced, or who are pierced, crave some form of self-expression that is a bit more permanent than a way of putting on makeup or a certain fashionable style to express oneself. That being pierced or tattooed can somehow fill such a void. Gans supports this claim by stating that one “who proudly enumerates her fifteen piercings would not do the same for her blue jeans or even her gold jewelry.”
Although those who pierce themselves in this area can be considered rebellious since such piercings are not as common as other piercings, many people do not even think about rebellion as a reason to get themselves pierced. The website www.nyyouth2000.com interviewed young people in New York on the reasons why they had themselves pierced. The number one reason for being pierced was not one out of rebellion or uprising against authority figures or parents, but rather “out of self-expression.” There were four different reasons that were given by the various youths as to why they had pierced or tattooed themselves. Each worded one way or another, none of them claiming rebellion as an explanation as to why they indulged in the wondrous world of body modification
Some think that the world of the pierced and tattooed is a relatively new one, sweeping high school and college campuses alike with this fervently addictive obsession. That the “rebellious” attitude that is thought to be motivation behind this body modification movement has recently begun with the punk rock revolution of the 1970’s. Little do the non-pierced, uninformed, and sometimes uptight anti-body art community know they are indeed incorrect. Tattooing, piercing, and other forms of body modification can be found in numerous cultures around the world throughout history of many of these different cultures in which such body modification exists. Body modification is so old, its origin cannot even be traced. It is such an ancient and traditional practice, historians cannot even date the earliest culture who used body modification as expression. Thus, tattooing and piercing has been used throughout many cultures for various reasons. Some examples of rationale for cultures to participate in body modification throughout history may include cultural self-expression, hunting purposes as well as ceremonies and rituals.
“The University of Pennsylvania’s Museum of Archeology and Anthropology displays a 4000 year-old clay figurine from Iran with multiple pierced ears as well as earplugs” (Ortiz). Cortez and his fellow Spanish conquistadors found tattoos and piercings on the bodies of the ancient Mexican civilization, the Mayans. They found that “tattooing was widely practiced by the natives of Central America. They arrived on the coast of Mexico in 1519 where they found the Mayans worshiping gods through idols and statues. They would tattoo themselves in order to “commemorate their achievements in battle.” The idea that people had actually modified their bodies by jabbing needles through and rubbing ink in their wounds absolutely horrified the Spaniards, who, misunderstanding the motivation for the Mayans inking, immediately assumed that the tattooing was the work of Satan. In addition to the various tattoos that the Mayans displayed proudly on their bodies, they also temporarily pierced their tongues in order to participate in ceremonies in which their bodies were purified and to commune with the spirits of their ancestors (Ortiz). The Mayans did not have a reason to tattoo or pierce themselves out of any sort of rebellion. Whom did they have to rebel against? Before Cortez and the other Spaniards came along, they had no one besides themselves and their leaders to look up to. They worshiped various gods, but tattooed and pierced themselves as a way to pay homage to the gods. This culture did not know of rebellion until the conquistadors. They tattooed themselves in order to convey a message about themselves. They were expressing a part of who they were. Because a large part of who they were was being a warrior, they chose to express themselves as such (Tattoo.com).
Throughout history, the vast and intricate world of tattooing and piercing has expanded itself, moving to more and more cultures who have lost the ceremonial and complex meanings to body modification. Instead, the body art communities around the modern world have grown to a larger population of people who share an important common bond: the need to express themselves. Meet Dave Haskell, “the human pincushion.” Dave owns his own piercing shop. While many piercing shops incorporate tattooing into their elaborate works of art, Dave’s shop is exclusively piercings. Dave performs on a regular basis in body piercing shows. These shows involve piercing long spears and hooks through the skin and suspending the body through hooks that are additionally displayed as they are inserted with precision into the skin. Dave uses his shows and his shop as his personal form of expression. "Piercing and body modification is a spiritual experience for me," Haskell explains. "It's like going to heaven and hell at the same time. Especially during my performances, the intense physical sensations lead me to a place of deep contentment and meditative quiet. By pushing my body to the limit, I take my mind and soul beyond the here and now. I feel very calm and purged after a show.” Dave is an example of one who was influenced by the punk rock movement mentioned earlier in this paper. His first piercing being a safety pin in his earlobe, he quickly learned the do’s and do not’s of the obscure world of piercing. He learned that safety pins contain “inappropriate metals to use for a piercing.” Haskell agrees that body modification is a movement that is influenced most definitely and solely an expression of self. “That's really what I enjoy most -- helping people to feel beautiful by their own definition, and creating a safe and friendly environment for them to accomplish that” (Weiner).
Involvement in body modification is not something that has to be as extreme as Haskell’s experience with body art. It can be as simple as having one’s ears pierced, or getting a little tattoo on one’s body. Whatever the reason, society should not dismiss body art as merely petty rebellion. The majority of people who are involved in the long time tradition of body modification are generally serious about what is done to their bodies and do not claim their motivations as rebellious ones. Such people would turn their noses at the thought that their beautifully intricate designs were created out of vain. As someone who is thoroughly involved in the ever growing community of body modification, I feel that it is an art, and those who use that art in the name of rebellion are doing so in vain. People who dismiss fine art in the form of tattoos or piercings as various forms of rebellion do not understand that it is indeed a form of fine art. It should be appreciated as a form of art that should be valued and treated with dignity and respect. Making permanent changes to one’s body is not a game. So I would tell someone that believes that body art is most certainly a form of rebellion that if I wanted to rebel against society I would most certainly not alter my God-given body in such a vain form. I would stray from common and ordinary practices such as opening a checking account and stopping at stop signs, or even buying a car. I would walk everywhere and never buy a cell phone. I definitely do not think that superficial forms of rebellion are effective or even convey a valid meaning. Body modification for the sake of rebellion is not something to be taken for face value. It is permanent and should begin with a well-thought out decision making process in which one decides exactly what form of body art and on which part of his or her body is the best place and design for that individual. It respects the people throughout history who used the same methods on their bodies to pay worship to those they venerated. Body modification is a practice of respect and historical value, not rebellion and revolution.
Works Cited
Ortiz, Janid. "Body Piercing- Evolution or Revolution?” Tribalectic.com. 2001. Tribalectic EZine. 12April2003. < http://www.tribalectic.com/EZine.asp>.
Weiner, Lori. “Meet Happy Dave, The Human Pincushion.” Sun-Sentinel.com. Posted April 17 2003. 18April2003. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/cu...ppydave,0,4514263.story?coll=sfla-news-fringe
Gilbert, Stephen G. Tattoo History: A Source Book,. Tattoos.com EZine. “Tattoo History Source Book: South America.” http://www.tattoos.com/jane/steve/south_america.htm
Parvaz, D. “Body modification: Devotees of this undergroud style speak out.” Seattle
Post. 11April 2003. Seattle Post. 18April2003.
<http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/lifestyle/116874_bodmod.html>.
Gans, Eric. "The Body Sacrificial." 159-178.
Siebers, Tobin. " The New Art." 217-242.Tobin Siebers, ed. The Body Aesthetic: From Fine Art to Body Modification. University of Michigan Press: University of Michigan, 2000.
I guess it all really boils down to going and finding scholarly articles and papers that support one's personal viewpoints on the subject, doesn't it?
jag
Whirlysplat
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jaguarr said:
Body modification is often linked to low self esteem and hate of self as is plastic surgery. Like me you Bodybuild, I do it because I don't like my shape when i'm not, it's a form of "self" loathing many bodybuilders suffer from a behavioral syndrome (muscle dysmorphia) in which a person has a distorted image of his or her body. Men with this condition think that they look small and weak, even if they are large and muscular. Similarly, women with the syndrome think that they look fat and flabby, even though they are actually lean and muscular.
Self modification may indeed be linked to this in some cases my friend.
- Whirly
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Whirlysplat said:
I bodybuild because I feel better for it in terms of my overall well-being and health and because I like the functional strength. I also like seeing how I can sculpt and affect my own body as a form of self expression. These are the same reasons I have my tattoos and piercings. You seem to come from a very different place when it comes to what you do with your body than I do, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Trying to apply your own reasoning and perception to everyone elses reasons for doing what they do with their bodies is probably remiss, though. Having been involved with the body-mod culture for many years now, I can tell you that body-modification is definitely about self-expression where the vast majority of people who practice it are concerned.
jag
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It's easier to suffer through something and take satisfaction from "being tough" than it is to work hard and take satisfaction from MAKING or ACCOMPLISHING something.
That's what these body-modification people do: They loooooooooove attention, and they want other people to say "wow, that must have hurt." To which they can reply, "why, yes it did." It's a history and notoriety -- like a guy with a scar over one eye. (Which all body modifiers want to be)
It's extremely vain. And to the people with "horns" and stuff -- that is just mental illness, I am sorry.
However, I think bodybuilders are different...you're not doing something TO your body, you're doing something WITH your body. It's natural and actually has a use.
That's what these body-modification people do: They loooooooooove attention, and they want other people to say "wow, that must have hurt." To which they can reply, "why, yes it did." It's a history and notoriety -- like a guy with a scar over one eye. (Which all body modifiers want to be)
It's extremely vain. And to the people with "horns" and stuff -- that is just mental illness, I am sorry.
However, I think bodybuilders are different...you're not doing something TO your body, you're doing something WITH your body. It's natural and actually has a use.
Whirlysplat
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jaguarr said:
I have several tats I got my first 22 years ago. I was a teen and I did it to shock. I originally trained to play Rugby I don't anymore but I still train because I like how I look when I train. I find when I am not as big I do not feel as confident, it's a suit of armour I wear to protect me perhaps from the world. People respond differently when I am pumped to when I am not.
A body modification could be part of a ritual. Some claim they are a sign of spirituality, higher consciousness, sexuality or pure aesthetics. Some people think that extreme bodymodifiers suffer the pain of their modifications for reasons of mental illness, self-hatred, traumatic past childhood experiences or just to seek attention.
Lot's of possible reasons.
This article is pretty good
Can't link to nudity. Doesn't matter the reason. We've been though this before.
Killswitch said:
Many would agree
- Whirly
Whirlysplat
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jaguarr said:Well, way to psycho-analyze people you don't even know and decide what their motives are or even diagnose that they are mentally ill.
jag
Whirlysplat said:
I said lot's of possible reasons my friend.
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Marriage is often linked to low self esteem.Whirlysplat said:
Becoming a movie star is often linked to low self esteem.
Going to college is often linked to low self esteem.
Training to become a police officer is often linked to low self esteem.
Enlisting in the Army is often linked to low self esteem.
Being funny is often linked to low self esteem.
Getting laid is often linked to low self esteem.
Getting your hair cut is often linked to low self esteem.
Whirlysplat
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Wilhelm-Scream said:
And who's to say these things are not sometimes?
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duh, I just said, not only are they "sometimes", they are "often".Whirlysplat said:
Whirlysplat said:
I'm talking about homogenous cultures, not women being trafficed into sexual slavery in another country.
For example:
Among the Tlingit of southeast Alaska, we know that ear piercing was directly related to an individual's rank in society. Social position was determined by the wealth of the family into which the individual was born. Although a Tlingit could rarely better his own social standing, he could raise the station of his sister's children and his grandchildren by "potlatching" (hosting a community feast). At a potlatch the host paid a member of his moiety (group) to pierce the rims of the children's ears. At additional potlatches, other holes were added. A great amount of wealth was required to host the feast and pay the person to pierce the children's ears. Consequently, the resulting series of holes marked an individual as a member of the nobility."
Until the late 19th century, the Eskimo defined social status among groups by lip piercing. Both men and women wore lip-plugs, called labrets. An Eskimo man wore either one lip-plug (worn centered to his mouth) or two (worn on either side of his mouth). A man wearing the double labrets resembled a walrus. Young men received the labret as a type of initiation. Since holes for their labrets were often cut when they reached puberty, a lip-plug symbolized that an Eskimo boy had entered manhood. Eskimo women usually wore only one central lip-plug as decoration; however, the highborn Tlingit girls wore a labret to indicate their noble social status.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eskimo men and women increased the size of their lip-plugs by gradually stretching the hole in the lip. Often labrets were so large that their lips hung down, exposing teeth and gums. Larger labrets sometimes interfered with speaking and eating and had to be removed.[/FONT]
Among the Tlingit of southeast Alaska, nose rings were considered a mark of distinction and prestige and were worn by both men and women. Nose piercing was also popular in Ancient Mexico and India. Today, women in India and Pakistan continue to wear nose rings, as do many other people around the world.
There are also ear spools and plugs found in ancient Mesoamerica, which we also know, from paintings, sculpture and the materials they're made from, were symbols of high rank - mainly for men.
Full body tattooing - both men and women - of the Trobriand Islanders.
Maori facial tatooing.
Ritual scarification of the Masai (and other African groups)
Neck rings used to lengthen the neck (forget what African group that is).
And many others.
The taboo nature of body modification in western culture is very much a part of our Judeo-Christian background (check out Leviticus 19:28 - another one of those rules designed to differentiate the Jews from the pagans)
Whirlysplat
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Wilhelm-Scream said:duh, I just said, not only are they "sometimes", they are "often".
Well you implied a link might often be seen, I implied the link might often be correct.
Hope I cleared that up for you "Homer".
Wilhelm-Scream said:duh
duh indeed
- Whirly
Whirlysplat
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Daisy said:
And I'm talking about lots of possible reasons.
Whirlysplat said:A body modification could be part of a ritual. Some claim they are a sign of spirituality, higher consciousness, sexuality or pure aesthetics. Some people think that extreme bodymodifiers suffer the pain of their modifications for reasons of mental illness, self-hatred, traumatic past childhood experiences or just to seek attention.
Lot's of possible reasons.
This article is pretty good
http://www.xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/20031129_body_mod.html
Many would agree
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jaguarr
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Whirlysplat said:
And that I will agree with, but the only thing I was really getting from your previous posts were self-abuse, self-loathing and mental-illness. Sure, those factors can play a part. They play a part in EVERY aspect of what people do with their bodies, from people who have f**ked up haircuts to the guy who runs 50 miles every week and is a walking pile of skin and bones to the point of it being unhealthy. But, as in the rest of most things humans do, they are a small fraction of the culture. I can say with a great deal of confidence based on my experiences as someone with body modifications and in knowing people with some VERY extreme body modifications, that self-expression is absolutely the most common driver I have encountered in this subculture.
jag
Whirlysplat
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jaguarr said:
I think serious body mods often have serious health risks, I don't think things like scrotal implants and six inch screw on horns are just self expression. Sorry mate but that's my opinion.
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Lurk
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Eating fast food has serious health risks. I'm fairly sure most people who eat at McDonalds don't choose that establishment because they hate themselves.
Just because a person does something you wouldn't choose to do, doesn't mean they're in a spiral of depression. Self-loathing *may* be part of some people's choices, but you're painting body-modders with a pyscho, self-hating broad brush which is totally inaccurate. Learn to make distinctions.
Just because a person does something you wouldn't choose to do, doesn't mean they're in a spiral of depression. Self-loathing *may* be part of some people's choices, but you're painting body-modders with a pyscho, self-hating broad brush which is totally inaccurate. Learn to make distinctions.
Danalys
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nah their normal. they go along with the trend setters like most anyone else. it's the trend setters that are barmy. either that or they are barmy. i thought of something else but i forgot it. 
oh yeah it's about only thinking of the present. or limiting the circle of socialisation. anti society but pro tribe.
oh yeah it's about only thinking of the present. or limiting the circle of socialisation. anti society but pro tribe.
Whirlysplat
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Lurk said:
Interesting I said many and numerous reasons to which you were just rude and made the comment
Lurk said:
May I politely answer your post with the statement "learn to comprehend many reasons means more than one".
I have a question for you do you consider this normal self expression to put syringes and baby dolls in your hair? Please explain it as "art" because I personally think it's a poor attempt to shock.
Lurk said:
It's all about comprehension my friend.
- Whirly
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