Bought/Thought, 10/21/09 - SPOILERS

[MightyAvenge]

Thats kind of what I was getting at. I was trying to make clear that since Man-Thing is rarely used, the only reason they would ever use him in the more mainstream marvel universe would be for an actual story. There is no need to kill him off if they never use him.

I didn't know he could regenerate, i shouldv'e figured. But i did figure that Man-thing would be back.

 

[Mike555]

I love Man-Thing getting his essental i hope man-thing escapes from osborn.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Carnage was rarely used but Bendis had the Sentry kill him off pretty indisputably.

I don't think the Man-Thing is dead either, though. Dude's brimming with magic and he's made of plant matter. I'm sure if they drop him in a swamp again, he'll regenerate. Although, I'm a big Ares fan, so seeing Ares slice him in half was still kinda cool.

 

[Mike555]

I have to admit it was sorry man-thing.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Why is Carnage defined as dead after that? Carnage has shown, even on a host, that he doesn't need to maintain human form. I remember when he discombobulated his own head in his first appearance. I'd think he could recover from the being torn in half thing.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I think when they talk about the 8 smartest people on earth, I think they are talking "good guys". It would be nice to see the top 8 smartest villians, then compare the 2 lists, and see who is really smarter, who would hold the top 3 spots.

Good 8 - In no Particular Order

Reed Richards
Tony Stark
Hank Pym
Bruce Banner
T'challa
Hank McCoy
Amadeus Cho

Besides Dr. Doom, who else would be up there for the 8 smartest villians.

The Wizard
The Tinkerer
Dr. Harrow

What do you guys think?

Pythagoras Dupree is #6 and he certainly isn't a good guy, so I don't think that the list refers to good guys. Although I do think that the list refers to people who are smart within normal human limits, not people who are smart because of their powers like the High Evolutionary and The Leader.

I also think of Dr. Doom being in the #1 spot with Reed Richards but the faults of both men, like Doom's arrogance and Reed's blindness to things like magic and the people around him because he is so focused on science, prevents one from surpassing the other.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Reed is smarter than Doom; it's the basis of their whole relationship, really. Doom's such a petty little **** that he can't acknowledge or stand the reality that he isn't #1.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's extremely open to interpretation. I've never believed Reed is smarter than Doom. I feel the same way as hippie: Reed and Doom are each about as smart as the other, but Doom's arrogance causes him to make sloppy mistakes and Reed's slavish devotion to science cuts him off from some areas of knowledge, like magic. Reed has yet to make a time machine comparable to Doom's, after all, and Doom's defeated Reed on a few occasions. Reed had to be saved by his teammates/family.

Why is Carnage defined as dead after that? Carnage has shown, even on a host, that he doesn't need to maintain human form. I remember when he discombobulated his own head in his first appearance. I'd think he could recover from the being torn in half thing.

Because no one's seen or heard from Carnage since that incident and it's well known that Bendis doesn't like Carnage, so people assume that Bendis intended Carnage to be dead after that. I'm sure Carnage will show up again eventually, but until then, it's a pretty safe assumption that he's considered dead.

 

[Hush]

Why is Carnage defined as dead after that? Carnage has shown, even on a host, that he doesn't need to maintain human form. I remember when he discombobulated his own head in his first appearance. I'd think he could recover from the being torn in half thing.

Yeah but he was torn in half in space by sentry, kinda you know the biggest thing that character is done.

 

[MightyAvenge]

Like any other character in comics, Carnage is dead until somebody has use for him and shows a back story of what happened to him. I would be interested to see Anti-Venom confront Carnage or Toxin. This makes me wish Marvel would clean up whats happened to Spider-Man.

 

[MightyAvenge]

Pythagoras Dupree is #6 and he certainly isn't a good guy, so I don't think that the list refers to good guys. Although I do think that the list refers to people who are smart within normal human limits, not people who are smart because of their powers like the High Evolutionary and The Leader.

I also think of Dr. Doom being in the #1 spot with Reed Richards but the faults of both men, like Doom's arrogance and Reed's blindness to things like magic and the people around him because he is so focused on science, prevents one from surpassing the other.

Okay, but is this fact or is this a claim by Pythagoras? And who makes the list in the MU? Although Pythagoras is a villian he could have humbely placed himself where he felt he belonged. So although he says he is the 6th smartest person, that may not actually be fact or official. Most "super-genius" villians do admit that certain heroes like Reed, Stark, Pym, Banner, are smarter then themselves. So it wouldn't be suprising for Dupree to place himself at 6.

So, is the list made by the people who did the Mastermind Excello contest?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Apparently. Cho took the test and got a result page saying he was the 7th-smartest person in the world.

So, basically, the list is meaningless both in the comics and out here in the real world.

 

[Vort]

I also felt bad for Manthing, but he can recover from Ares beatdown.

On the Reed/Doom intelligence, I agree that they always seemed equal to me. Doom just throws off any restraints with his intellect due to arrogance. He believes that there is no power that he cannot control, and Reed operates on safer parameters.

They've shown in the past that Doom vs Reed = Doom wins....most of the time. The whole dynamic of being part of a team has always been important to the FF (at least when I read them constantly 10+ years ago) and would usually have Reed lose in a one on one match to empathize the fact of team/family support by the end of the comic.

On the Bought/Thought topic though, I'll just say I picked up Incredible Hulk, Hulk Dark Reign, Dark Avengers and Thunderbolts.

I was slightly disappointed in the Thunderbolts, but part of that is my own misconceptions. I was hoping the Ironfist/Cage duo would be part of the Thunderbolts in an ongoing arc for a bit and it's a one shot. But besides that I really like the book for showing Osbournes version of friendship and Danny/Cage's version being way beyond the selfserving view that Osbourne had.

I liked Dark Hulk, but I do not understand how making Banner hulk out sooner would be what Osbourne truly wanted. It would look like if someone wanted to kill the hulk, then their best chance is by killing banner.

Although they have given Banner all these toys now, it still would make more sense to send the whole team after him to kill him now rather than to turn him back into his Hulk self were nothing seems to be able to kill him.


Incredible Hulk was just INCREDIBLE! I loved Banner's line of "Maybe I was turning into the Hulk to protect everyone from Banner" was well done. I also like how Banner still sees everything in scientific white/black terms and uses logic to try to bond with Skaar. I loved that wolvie pointed out that fact for him as well.

The writing in the Incredible series makes it my favorite comic out atm, and that is even without "Hulk" technically being in the comic.

I'm still enjoying Dark Avengers as well, and kinda sad it will be leaving. This is the side of an "evil" group that you would rarely get to see in a Hero comic. I like the little things they put into the comic, like Venom being over medicated.

I'm not implying that the real avengers should not return to glory or that Osbourne should remain in power for this comic to keep going. I'm just saying that I'll miss it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I loved the Banner stuff in Incredible Hulk. It's true, if you think about it: The Hulk (the childlike idiot one, anyway) is so stupid that he's innocent. He can't accurately comprehend the effects of his actions and he doesn't bear malice toward anyone until they actively try to hurt him. He's entirely defensive. Banner, on the other hand, is almost as potent as the Hulk in his own way, but he's intelligent enough to direct that power against whatever he chooses. He has the potential to be a much bigger threat than the Hulk. Any of the super-geniuses do, really. Luckily, they mostly happen to be good guys and the evil super-geniuses are usually incompetent.

As for the Hulk/Banner thing, it would seem like killing Banner would be the easier task, but again, Banner's got the brains to defend himself better. The first thing Banner did upon losing his ability to turn into the Hulk was create a practically impenetrable force field. Eventually, someone could come up with a way to get through it, but Banner's probably got a hundred other aces up his sleeve for when that happens. The Hulk, on the other hand, is an idiot that Skaar might very well be able to kill, for all we know. Osborn doesn't know either, but accelerating Banner's return to the Hulk provides him the opportunity to find out without really costing him anything.

 

[Vort]

I loved the Banner stuff in Incredible Hulk. It's true, if you think about it: The Hulk (the childlike idiot one, anyway) is so stupid that he's innocent. He can't accurately comprehend the effects of his actions and he doesn't bear malice toward anyone until they actively try to hurt him. He's entirely defensive. Banner, on the other hand, is almost as potent as the Hulk in his own way, but he's intelligent enough to direct that power against whatever he chooses. He has the potential to be a much bigger threat than the Hulk. Any of the super-geniuses do, really. Luckily, they mostly happen to be good guys and the evil super-geniuses are usually incompetent.

Yeah, I love how they put it in perspective for the reader. Banner with his super intelligence "accidently" killed his own dad, where the Hulk would level cities and no one would die.

 

[bored]

Having not read "Dark Avengers", why exactly did Ares go after Man-Thing? Isn't MT supposed to be with the Midnight Sons, another government-sanctioned team, in the wake of "Marvel Zombies 4"?

Anyway, even if he did get slashed in half, MZ4 had him get impaled, torn up, and melted by evil zombie rain (seriously), and he just reformed in a few minutes.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The Midnight Sons work for ARMOR, don't they? I'm sure Osborn doesn't give a f*** about any dirty international teams' backing. If they don't work for HAMMER and they're operating in the US, he probably figures he's well within his rights to murder them.

 

[Mike555]

I am going to miss dark reign and the dark avengers.

 

[Vort]

As for the Hulk/Banner thing, it would seem like killing Banner would be the easier task, but again, Banner's got the brains to defend himself better. The first thing Banner did upon losing his ability to turn into the Hulk was create a practically impenetrable force field. Eventually, someone could come up with a way to get through it, but Banner's probably got a hundred other aces up his sleeve for when that happens. The Hulk, on the other hand, is an idiot that Skaar might very well be able to kill, for all we know. Osborn doesn't know either, but accelerating Banner's return to the Hulk provides him the opportunity to find out without really costing him anything.

Yeah, I see what your saying, but I'd still go after Banner. You throw enough supes at him and his gadgets will eventually give out. Even if you are just hoping for that 1 shot to get through to kill him, at least it could kill him. You just can't stop the hulk.

But then again, we are dealing with insanity for Osbourne, so who knows what kinda logic he is coming up with. Maybe he has a "hulk" killer up his sleeve and that's why he is trying to get the hulk back.

As far as Skaar killing Hulk, he pretty much got his butt handed to him by stupid hulk. Yeah, he stabbed Hulk in the end, after Hulk stopped fighting.

Then Skaar also said that "he wanted to kill a king, not a clown" or something like that. He wants Green Scar and I can't imagine him taking on that version of the Hulk unless Banner has some doohicky up his sleeve to help Skaar out.

Also, does anyone have a magnifing glass or something similar? I cant read what Skaar really says to Daken. He claimed Skaar asked to be killed, but I can't read that small print.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Right, but Skaar is also protecting Banner. Remember, he doesn't want anyone taking Banner out before he can get his shot at the Hulk. So you'd need to get through all of Banner's gadgets and his son, who's almost as strong as the Hulk, has the Oldpower as well, and is much smarter and combat-savvy than the Hulk to boot.

Osborn may be crazy, but his plan's sound. If he turns Banner into the Hulk again, he not only doesn't have to deal with Banner's gadgets or Skaar, he actually gets to sit back and just watch Skaar go to work on the Hulk himself. What does Osborn really care if Skaar can't take him? Either Skaar will kill the Hulk or the Hulk will kill or at least beat the crap out of Skaar. It's a win/win for Osborn. Then Osborn can just come in and mop up whomever's left over--if it's Skaar, he can sic Daken on him again. If it's the Hulk, he can wait and take him out as Banner with an orbital satellite or something.

Accelerating Banner's return to the Hulk was pretty clever, I think. I mean, it'll obviously blow up in Osborn's face horribly, but on the surface it's a really good idea from Osborn's perspective.

 

[Kitsune]

I am going to miss dark reign and the dark avengers.

I missed them too, but my aim is improving.

 

[Vort]

Right, but Skaar is also protecting Banner. Remember, he doesn't want anyone taking Banner out before he can get his shot at the Hulk. So you'd need to get through all of Banner's gadgets and his son, who's almost as strong as the Hulk, has the Oldpower as well, and is much smarter and combat-savvy than the Hulk to boot.

Osborn may be crazy, but his plan's sound. If he turns Banner into the Hulk again, he not only doesn't have to deal with Banner's gadgets or Skaar, he actually gets to sit back and just watch Skaar go to work on the Hulk himself. What does Osborn really care if Skaar can't take him? Either Skaar will kill the Hulk or the Hulk will kill or at least beat the crap out of Skaar. It's a win/win for Osborn. Then Osborn can just come in and mop up whomever's left over--if it's Skaar, he can sic Daken on him again. If it's the Hulk, he can wait and take him out as Banner with an orbital satellite or something.

Accelerating Banner's return to the Hulk was pretty clever, I think. I mean, it'll obviously blow up in Osborn's face horribly, but on the surface it's a really good idea from Osborn's perspective.

Yeah, I don't really disagree with any point you made. It's a choice of being hit by a bull or a bison. I also agree with the blowing up in his face either way.

 

[runawayboulder]

Has anybody been reading Beasts of Burden from Dark Horse. I just read issue 2 of the 4 issue limited series and I'm really enjoying it. It's about a group of neighborhood pets (mostly all dogs and 1 cat) and their supernatural adventures. It's very good, a nice change of pace from superhero comics. I highly recommend!

 

[Franklin Richards]

Gotta jump in here on the intel thing.


Doom is not smarter than Reed. Doom and Reed's relationship should be analogous to Salieri and Mozart's relationship.


Doom works hard. He spends the time working on his brain. He studies. He pursues pure science at it's simplest. Forgetting his ethics in the process. This makes him appear to excel in science, but the truth is he takes shortcuts that ethical scientist wouldn't dream of taking. He comes to his conclusions through trial and error. Although anyone witnessing his error is probably killed.

Reed on the other hand is a savant. He appears to simply take dictation when his ideas appear. He's already figured out the machine in his head long before he builds it. Reed is a "Natural".


And let us not forget the most important fact. Doom's most important invention didn't work. Reed showed him how to fix it, but his arrogance wouldn't let him rethink it. But the main point is...


Doom ****ed up.

 

[Dread]

I am going to miss dark reign and the dark avengers.

I won't. I think the story has run it's course and if anything, Marvel drags on their events too long considering their antagonists usually only have one gimmick. The Skrull's only had one gimmick, but their story bled out for over a year to the point that I never want to see a Skrull in any story, ever again. Ever. They've been done to death. And in Dark Reign, Norman Osborn has reached that point. Hell, considering Howard Mackie resurrected him after 20 years in the end of the 90's to end the Clone Saga (two wrongs must make a right), you could argue Osborn's more than outlasted his welcome of his century. I never want to see him again, once he's dealt with. In the name of continuity and sales, Marvel's overexposed a hell of a lot of characters. Osborn, like the Skrulls, only has one gimmick; he's crazy. He even doesn't fit into the "perils of authority in the wrong hands" because he is so hopelessly insane/evil that he doesn't work into most Bush metaphors unless you are one of the Extreme Lefties who REALLY thinks he was "worse than Hitler". He works as well as Vince McMahon in WWE, and even he usually gets a rest now and then.

I truly wish once in the entire history of civilization, Marvel or any company knew to quit while they were ahead, instead of going overboard.