Bought/Thought July 16th, 2008

Yes, Dread, I'm one of the few who enjoyed Bart's tenure on Flash....I thought it was absolutely fantastic. Between Bart and Ted Kord, DC has killed two of my favorite non-Superman heroes in the DC universe. Superman's death didn't effect me that much though, since I knew it wouldn't be for long. :p
 
Bucky could remain as Captain America for all I care. It's not the mantle I really care about. It's Steve Rogers. He's just too good a character to leave in the ground. Let Steve go back to Nomad or whatever. Iron Man's got two titles right now; why can't Steve and Bucky each have their own?

By "latest Flash," I assume you mean Final Crisis: Rogues' Revenge, right? Inertia and Zoom weren't in this week's Flash issue. But I read both and yes, Rogues Revenge was awesome. Bit of a flimsy explanation for Bart's death ("it was an accident!") but I've missed the Rogues so much in all the confusion in The Flash that I didn't mind too much. They've transcended the villain role and become more a set of antagonistic supporters, and it was nice to see things from their perspective. I like that the Pied Piper is being set up as the "hero" (if anyone can be called that) in this story, too. No Flash, just the Rogues sorting out their own mess. I'm sure Wally or, more likely, Barry (you know Johns won't be able to resist playing with that particular Silver Age toy now that he's back) will show up at some point, but I like how contained within the Rogues' own ranks it is so far. It gives you the sense that this isn't a traditional heroes and villains, good and bad story--this is about a code the Rogues live by and the consequences and repercussions of breaking it. I'm really looking forward to the next issue. :up:

Yeah, I'm an idiot, I got the two mixed up.

I loved it as well. Zoom is always fun to read. I loved them telling Libra to stick it. Great moment.
 
Yeah, Zoom's actually compelling again, which is impressive given how far into the background he faded after he entered the DC universe proper. Losing like a b**** to Wonder Woman right off the bat didn't really help. :o
 
Zoom losing to wonder woman wasn't as bad as Electro fainting at the sight of Luke Cage. :(
 
I'm not saying I would be opposed to Steve returning; most realists see it as inevitable, especially in an age where Norman Osborn can return after 20 years, or Bucky after 40. But Brubaker's pulled off something here that Marvel rarely does; a successful legacy hero taking up the mantle from the original; it works, got media attention, and is popular. I wouldn't be so quick to give that back after only two years if I were Brubaker. Bucky is Cap's Wally West, if that makes sense. Wouldn't it have stunk if Barry had simply returned in, say, 1988-1989? Brubaker obviously relates to Bucky, and it shows. Part of me thinks he may not be so quick to return him to second banada status so quick. And that he shouldn't. But that's all opinion, natch. I am sure there are plenty of "Hung-er for Steve R!" fans out there.

It's rare that I actually agree with you but... I actually agree with you. Bringing Steve back would really be a bad move, in my opinion, and I hope it doesn't happen.
 
It's rare that I actually agree with you but... I actually agree with you. Bringing Steve back would really be a bad move, in my opinion, and I hope it doesn't happen.
Too bad it's clearly going to. Maybe Brubaker has the balls not to do it in his run, but Steve'll be back at some point. Before you disagree, remember three things: 1) Jason Todd, 2) Bucky Barnes, and 3) Barry Allen.
 
Steve will definitely be back for the movie in 2011, i'll bet anything on that, the question is will they keep Steve dead till then?
 
Bucky could remain as Captain America for all I care. It's not the mantle I really care about. It's Steve Rogers. He's just too good a character to leave in the ground. Let Steve go back to Nomad or whatever. Iron Man's got two titles right now; why can't Steve and Bucky each have their own?

Fair enough. The only dilemma is that if Steve Rogers is back, then he will immediately become Captain America again, or at least he will as soon as Brubaker is off CA (which, after an astonishing 50 issues, is a concern. I mean, even JMS eventually left ASM after about 6-7 years). I suppose it could be interesting if Steve somehow revived but deliberately went, "Y'know, Bucky needs the mantle more than I do, let me pass the torch and do something a little different" and then had adventures where he wasn't Cap, but it wasn't a depressing, "Man without a country/America turning on him" sort of story. It is rare that too many people get Steve's direct approval to fill his shoes.

Still...the realist in me says that if Steve is Revived, New Cap is bye-bye. And I see too much promise to want to see that happen, at least at this stage.

Yes, Dread, I'm one of the few who enjoyed Bart's tenure on Flash....I thought it was absolutely fantastic. Between Bart and Ted Kord, DC has killed two of my favorite non-Superman heroes in the DC universe. Superman's death didn't effect me that much though, since I knew it wouldn't be for long. :p

At least Ted Kord got to return for a little bit in BLUE BEETLE.

I'm not much of a DC fan; I didn't care for the idea of Bart Allen being the Flash, though. DC gets stuck in too many cycles of repeating themselves. Marvel does it too, but DC is more obvious about it, Kid-Flash and all. I preferred Impulse. It seems DC's response to Marvel is usually to snuff out any hint of "levity" and get things dark and moody. But, loudly screaming that you are above being "goofy" isn't maturity.

Zoom losing to wonder woman wasn't as bad as Electro fainting at the sight of Luke Cage. :(

That Electro moment actually made me physically mad.

Indeed, especially since that was after his moment in MKSM where Electro actually got more "hard core". It was one of the rare times Bendis outright stepped on the toes of something Mark Millar did. Usually the two Ultimate Founders are like Bread and Butter with each other's stories (for the good or ill of everyone else).

It's rare that I actually agree with you but... I actually agree with you. Bringing Steve back would really be a bad move, in my opinion, and I hope it doesn't happen.

Uh-huh.

It isn't because I think Brubaker will botch the story. It is just New Cap has many years of potential. It is easy to scoff off switching Barry Allen for Wally West now, but back in 1986-1987, that was gutsy as hell. It took nerve to push through it for as long as DC did. Maybe I just like CA's direction too much but I see James Barnes as an equal opportunity for the legacy hero challenged Marvel.

Could interesting stories happen with Steve alive but allowing Bucky to be Cap? Sure. Just as stories could be made with Magneto and Xavier on the same side. But so long as certain parties are alive, "the perennial status quo" always re-emerges, or is tempted to. That is my concern here. Not a gripe; a concern. There is a difference.

Too bad it's clearly going to. Maybe Brubaker has the balls not to do it in his run, but Steve'll be back at some point. Before you disagree, remember three things: 1) Jason Todd, 2) Bucky Barnes, and 3) Barry Allen.

Part of me knows it will eventually happen, as I noted older examples of Norman Osborn and so on. I just don't think 2 years is too long. If Marvel waited into 2011 to have "synergy" with the movie, that would be 5 years. That may be alright, but, by then everyone would have gotten used to Bucky moreso than they are now. Why not just stick with the decision?

I mean, Dick Grayson hasn't been Robin for over 20 years now. Various cartoons and movies have had Grayson as Robin. Has that effected the comics? No. Should it? No. Most cartoons stick with the Wally West Flash as the "modern" one (aside for the CBS show, which used Barry).

Steve will definitely be back for the movie in 2011, i'll bet anything on that, the question is will they keep Steve dead till then?

Possibly.

On the other hand, Paul O'Brien at www.thexaxis.com once said that if a Capt. America movie comes out starring the Steve Rogers incarnation, and in the comics, he is STILL DEAD, then we'll REALLY know they were "serious". I tend to agree.
 
Too bad it's clearly going to. Maybe Brubaker has the balls not to do it in his run, but Steve'll be back at some point. Before you disagree, remember three things: 1) Jason Todd, 2) Bucky Barnes, and 3) Barry Allen.

Is it inevitable? In all likelihood. I just really don't want to see it.
 
I want Steve for at least a few more years.I hope Bru has more planned for bucky.Let's wait until #75 or #100 for steve's return.
 
I suppose it could be interesting if Steve somehow revived but deliberately went, "Y'know, Bucky needs the mantle more than I do, let me pass the torch and do something a little different" and then had adventures where he wasn't Cap, but it wasn't a depressing, "Man without a country/America turning on him" sort of story.

Like some Nomad stories that weren't, ... well, ...

That could definitely work
 
Here's an idea; what if when Steve comes back eventually, he decides to raise his child with Sharon instead of doning the mantle of Cap again? Being assassinated combined with the prospect of fatherhood would be enough to make Steve step-down. Steve would never endanger the life of his child by continuing to be Captain America.

Then Steve could serve as a mentor to Bucky.
 
Here's an idea; what if when Steve comes back eventually, he decides to raise his child with Sharon instead of doning the mantle of Cap again? Being assassinated combined with the prospect of fatherhood would be enough to make Steve step-down. Steve would never endanger the life of his child by continuing to be Captain America.

Then Steve could serve as a mentor to Bucky.

Steve Rogers is a devoted soldier first and foremost. He may retire the stripes, but he wouldn't stop fighting until he was unable. I could see Marvel bringing Cap back, but he assumes another role and Bucky remains as Cap. Bucky's mentality would actually fit better into the Post SI era (Fury back, Registration in effect, etc). I don't know if folks remember the What If issue where The Punisher Became Captain America, the ending in that book could be an idea for if they bring him back.
 
Originally Posted by KangConquers View Post
Here's an idea; what if when Steve comes back eventually, he decides to raise his child with Sharon instead of doning the mantle of Cap again? Being assassinated combined with the prospect of fatherhood would be enough to make Steve step-down. Steve would never endanger the life of his child by continuing to be Captain America.

Then Steve could serve as a mentor to Bucky.

Sorta like Batman Beyond right?:cwink: I dig that idea.
 
Steve Rogers is a devoted soldier first and foremost. He may retire the stripes, but he wouldn't stop fighting until he was unable. I could see Marvel bringing Cap back, but he assumes another role and Bucky remains as Cap. Bucky's mentality would actually fit better into the Post SI era (Fury back, Registration in effect, etc). I don't know if folks remember the What If issue where The Punisher Became Captain America, the ending in that book could be an idea for if they bring him back.

I dunno. I really can't think of a good way to bring Steve back that doesn't smack of stupid plot device.
 
I want Steve for at least a few more years.I hope Bru has more planned for bucky.Let's wait until #75 or #100 for steve's return.

Yeah, I want to see what he has planned for New Cap, too.

Like some Nomad stories that weren't, ... well, ...

That could definitely work

Maybe. I was just brain-storming since Corp's point wasn't about returning Steve to his costume, but at least to life.

I dunno. I really can't think of a good way to bring Steve back that doesn't smack of stupid plot device.

Therein lies the dilemma.
 
they can bring Steve back the same way they brought Norman Osborn back, just say its a side effect of the super soldier serum. The serum was slowly healing Steve's body over the years until it fully revitalized him.
 
they can bring Steve back the same way they brought Norman Osborn back, just say its a side effect of the super soldier serum. The serum was slowly healing Steve's body over the years until it fully revitalized him.

They kind of made a point of saying that the serum was actually having the opposite effect upon Steve's death: his body was reverting to its original scrawniness.


I was going to give my bought/thought comments, but it's 10:00, which means I'm off to see The Dark Knight! :woot:
 
Now there's a thought. What if Steve came back but his body still lacked the Super-Soldier Serum? He would be physically incapable of taking back the Captain America mantle, so Bucky could continue with that, but he could help as a tactician and his return, powered or not, would reinvigorate a lot of heroes.
 
Or a de-powered Steve could be the next Director of SHIELD. (And to be clear, that would not be a good fit. The spy business is not a good place for a person with the moral terpitude of Steve. But that kind of conflict could be cool for a while. And it would bring him into contact/conflict with all of the MU.)
 
If his super soldier stuff stopped working then he'd look like Bucky from The Ultimates. Lotta good he'd do.
 
Why is Stormbringer still considerred a very powerful irreplacable weapon. Thor has the power Odin once had and therfore making another one should not be a great issue.

The other thing is how can the skrulls be a challenge for this Thor?
 
Stormbreaker's important because it belongs to Beta Ray Bill and it's identical to Mjolnir in power. Cracking Stormbreaker is basically like cracking Mjolnir, and I doubt anyone wants to see the Skrulls wielding actual, bona fide clones of Mjolnir.

The Skrulls can pose a threat to Thor because they can duplicate just about every power under the sun. Thor's got an impressive level of power, but let's face it, he's not being portrayed as quite the mystical powerhouse Odin was, even with the Odinpower (or Thorforce or whatever). He's just a tougher version of his classic self, same as in the King Thor Saga. So a couple of Super-Skrulls with some very high-level powers could pose a challenge to him, and the Skrulls have hundreds of Super-Skrulls all ready to go to war with Earth and its gods now. It's not that hard to see how they'll pose a threat.

Besides, Fraction says right in the preview Vartha posted that Thor's not going to be on the front lines leading the Asgardians. I'm assuming something'll happen to take him out of the picture by distracting him or moving him someplace else, leaving the vastly less powerful other Asgardians to handle the army of Super-Skrulls.
Or a de-powered Steve could be the next Director of SHIELD. (And to be clear, that would not be a good fit. The spy business is not a good place for a person with the moral terpitude of Steve. But that kind of conflict could be cool for a while. And it would bring him into contact/conflict with all of the MU.)
That'd be cool. Steve would definitely piss off all the right people as Director of SHIELD.
 

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