Brett Ratner saved the X-Men franchise?

[El Payaso]

They were goping to give Jean yet another fake death thing??? sheesh...

 

[Gilpesh]

People let X-Men and X2 off the hook because they like Singer better than Ratner. It's as simple as that IMHO.

You accused me of anti-Ratner bias? I now accuse you of anti-Singer bias as you just read a well thought out post making an attempt to get through to you... which you just went "So?" to and continued to say the same crap.

You can make similiar arguments about X3. Beast is the one who stops Magneto, Collossus provides the distraction, Kitty defeats Juggernaut, etc but in the end, the focus of X1, X2, and X3 are entirely on Wolverine. Sure, supporting characters get little moments to shine in all of them, but that doens't change the fact that Singer made the mistake as Ratner.

But. Let's look closer.

Beast stops Magneto WITH THE CURE. Very underhanded move from the 'good guys' especially as their supposed to be against it.

Colossus says one line in the entire movie but is supposedly a supporting character. At least X2 he was only a cameo to explain why he wasn't in it.



So even though all the movies had a little too much Wolverine, at least the first two didn't have completely empty attempts to include other characters just for the sake of it.

 

[Dark Helmet]

If Brett Ratner saved the X-Men franchise then how come he is not directing anymore X-Men related movies ? Jack ass

 

[Hound55]

IMO Singer managed to come out with movies which upheld quality whilst also reaching Fox's bogus demands of focus around Wolverine...

He did this by largely taking X-Men from the perspective of Wolverine and then throwing a curveball as we realise that Rogue is Magneto's real target...

In X-2 He did this by continuing the storyline from where the first left off, with Wolverine's search for truth regarding his own past...

Ratner meanwhile has all of the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the face and instead of having the story justify the focus which falls upon Wolverine he's all of a sudden everyone's bigger brother and father figure... F*** that.

 

[The Guard]

No one's talking about a monologue. That's just stupid. What I wanted was more from her. She could have said something to Logan in the woods. She could have told him how she was feeling, how hard she's struggling not to lose it, why she chose to go with Magneto (when she knows he's using her as a weapon, etc). I wanted to see more scenes of her switching between Jean and Dark Phoenix (which was never even mentioned in the film). The way they did was L-A-Z-Y. Famke was completely fantastic in the infirmary scene, and I wanted to see more of that, especially in the emotional climax of the story. But no, only Hugh Jackman was allowed to act in that scene!p

This is the problem. Why would a character who has already lost it wax poetic about how she's struggling not to lose it?

The character was not MEANT to struggle overtly. She was meant to have already been consumed by Dark Phoenix. The struggle you speak of was in the scene at Jean's house, and it was seen. Clearly. The "call" to Logan was Jean's subconscious fighting Phoenix's influence, but for Dark Phoenix herself to suddenly "struggle" would have defeated the point of the character's transformation into a cold and evil force.

It's fine to want more. But what I see is you not asking for more of Dark Phoenix destroying things. You want a female Two-Face. You want redundant character development, when we'd already seen it. And in some senses, that might be compelling. But it wouldn't be faithful, and it would, as I said, be redundant.

The last half of the movie Jean just stood there and stared. It's as simple as that. You could read really into it, and interpret a twitch of the eyebrows or something ridiculous like that.

Yeah...it's not nearly that simple. But thanks for trying to make it sound like it is.

You apparently missed her rather important and telling exchange with Magneto in the woods, and that whole...massive scene on Alcatraz Island.

And it's not ridiculous. It's called subtle acting. Twitches, facial expressions, even things actors do with their eyes are important.

But they gave her nothing to do.

And why do you think that is?

There is this fantastic deleted scene on the Bridge where she actually looked conflicted. But they deleted it! Perfect example of the poor pacing and characterization. Take away a scene that adds a little depth to the character, and helps the transition from dusk to night.

So...she's not conflicted throughout the rest of the film...and suddenly she just IS...and you think that would have made for a better film because...

My friend, who has no knowledge whatsoever of X-men, thought Jean was just pure evil. And that's probably what the majority of the audience thought as well. And that's not faithful at all. Jean was the true hero of the Dark Phoenix Saga, but in the movie it was Wolverine and only him. The scenes where she was struggling, and, yuhknow, acting were fantastic. There just weren't enough of them, especially in the last half.

Your friend isn't far off, though. Jean falls prey to a lack of control and absolute power...and that does tend to lead to pure evil. And Dark Phoenix, in any incarnation I've seen of her, IS pretty much pure evil.

If every character that died came back to life, if every character that got the cure was un-cured, don't you think that would lose the next movie credibility? That would make it seem like any consequence doesn't matter, and no one is in danger ever. Yeah, I know that's what the comic's are like, but not this franchise.

So...because things turn out alright in the end,or because things may change after we change them, our failures and struggles mean nothing in context?

It's pretty obvious that the Phoenix personality emerged in its full, destructive form in the battle with Xavier. After that, everything changed. Jean managed to call out to Wolverine later, but that was about it. The Phoenix was silent, unpredictable, unfriendly, she just wanted to do exactly as she pleased, much like the young Jean as a child. The death of Xavier severed all ties to the X-Men, it was a point of no return.

It's not just pretty obvious, it's blatantly obvious.

Dark Phoenix was Jean lost, and not wanting to be controlled.

Wherein in the comics she IS pretty much pure evil who doesn't want to be controlled.

When Jean "Calls out" to Logan, that's for the audience's benefit, and to kick off the substory of Logan searching for Jean. It allows the audience a reason to believe Jean, though lost, could potentially reach out to Logan later on, so when she does, it's not completely out of left field.

There's no suspense in that element if Jean does nothing but "struggle" with herself over the course of the film, because then the audience will just EXPECT her to "win" over Dark Phoenix.

The tiny moments of struggle we saw from Jean at the end of the movie were FAR more compelling than, oh, say...this.

DARK PHOENIX:
"Logan. I'm still Jean, deep inside. I want to shake this monkey off my back...but I just can't. Help me."

It's sort of INHERENT in her calling out to him. Economy of storytelling, and just compelling enough to keep you from hoping she's still there.

Nevermind that we already essentially SAW that sequence at Jean's house.

Can you please point out the scene in which it is said or implied that Wolverine is Jean's one true love? because that sounds like over the top anti Ratner hyperbole to me. I also don't remember him be called the team leader.

Agreed.

The melodramatic conversation between Wolverine and Storm comes to mind. The one where he admits he loves Jean, to his great anguish.

How does that make Wolverine Jean's one true love? That just means Wolverine loves Jean. Which he already did in X-MEN and X2.

Wolverine has always loved Jean, so... whats the problem again?

Seconded.

He explains the logic behind Wolverine being a focus in the second one, seeing as it is his past that is the danger to all mutants. And also that there is a lot of character moments for other mutants like Bobby. That it wasn't Wolverine who saved the day etc. And in the first X film it was a team effort that saved the day also.

There are a lot of character moments for other mutants in X3 as well.

And there was a team effort in X3, to stop the rampaging Brotherhood, Magneto, etc.

The focus on Wolverine in X-3 was more blatant and illogical than any of the previous movies. Wolverine and Wolverine alone saving the day. Why? Wolverine and Wolverine alone leading the X-Men. Why? Wolverine and Wolverine alone going to the forest etc.

The focus on Wolverine in X3 made perfect sense. He had ties to Jean from X-MEN and X2, and those ties were severed, and tested, in X3. Also, given the plot of X3, going after Jean was the only real chance Wolverine got to "go solo".

To the point that Wolverine was out of character and became the confident boyscout (which is exactly what Cyclops is supposed to be).

How was Wolverine out of character again?

And at what point was he a "boy scout" in the franchise?

Exactly. I don't care whose fault it was. Making Wolverine a gorgeous badboy with a heart of gold was a bad idea to this fan because it eventually watered the character down to the point of near unrecogizability. I'm sorry but I don't dig Wolve-Clops as much as I dig Wolverine.

Except that hasn't Wolverine always been attractive to the ladies, with the whole heart of gold thing going on? I know modern writers have basically made him into a harier version of The Punisher, but that wasn't always the case. Classic Wolverine is very much the "gruff fellow with a heart of gold" character.

The Wolverine at the first part of the first X-Men movie was the Wolverine I know and love.

Can you elaborate?

Wolverine has lost more and more of his badassness as the series has went along. Strangely enough he was the most tame in X-Men Orgins.

I don't know that I agree with this. He's just been badass in a different sense. In X-MEN: ORIGINS, the whole point is that he moved away from a dark past and found some humanity before it was taken from him by Weapon X, and by the end of the movie. And he was still very much a badass.

You can make similiar arguments about X3. Beast is the one who stops Magneto, Collossus provides the distraction, Kitty defeats Juggernaut, etc but in the end, the focus of X1, X2, and X3 are entirely on Wolverine. Sure, supporting characters get little moments to shine in all of them, but that doens't change the fact that Singer made the mistake as Ratner.

Exactly.

But. Let's look closer. Beast stops Magneto WITH THE CURE. Very underhanded move from the 'good guys' especially as their supposed to be against it.

That's. The. Point.

The whole point of the movie, just like X-MEN and X2, is the gray area of mutant powers. The danger they pose. The fact that maybe some people should be cured, and some shouldn't. The fact that, while people should, in a perfect world, choose for themselves, that with such dangerous potential, others have to be controlled. That's the entire theme of the film.

So even though all the movies had a little too much Wolverine, at least the first two didn't have completely empty attempts to include other characters just for the sake of it.

Nonsense. The first films also had cameos and small roles for key supporting characters, etc.

Ratner meanwhile has all of the subtlety of a sledgehammer to the face and instead of having the story justify the focus which falls upon Wolverine he's all of a sudden everyone's bigger brother and father figure... F*** that. p

Because Brett Ratner wrote the script.

And because Wolverine has never been a "bigger brother" and "father figure" in the comics. Let alone the first two movies. "All of a sudden"? Are you serious?

 

[Hound55]

Because Brett Ratner wrote the script.

And because Wolverine has never been a "bigger brother" and "father figure" in the comics. Let alone the first two movies. "All of a sudden"? Are you serious?

Not saying he did write the script...

But Singer was smart enough to work with the studio to come out with a movie that was acceptable to both parties whilst still having a little more depth to it. Ratner, did not.

In fact I would lay claim to his point that he "saved" X-3 is entirely dependant on the fact that he just took the script and ran with it and the majority of the studio's expectations to boot. Its what saves him from complete blame regarding the film, because if the project had time then the movie that X-3 was, in contrast to the first 2, would be completely unjustifiable.

There's a difference between not kicking a kid out of your truck into the snowy wilderness (X-Men), being forced to try to protect a bunch of kids from the chaos you brought upon their school (X-Men 2 - where he even said "Leave me! I'll be OK!" and only went begrudgingly with the kids after Rogue's "But we won't") and choosing to be the bigger brother guy that he was in X-Men 3...

 

[The Guard]

Not saying he did write the script...

But Singer was smart enough to work with the studio to come out with a movie that was acceptable to both parties whilst still having a little more depth to it. Ratner, did not.

"Smart enough". Right. Do you just not understand the circumstances surrounding X3? You realize that when Ratner came aboard, the script was set, there was basically very little time to alter it, etc?

And are you actually seriously suggesting X3 had no depth? X3 did a fantastic job of fleshing out and elaborating on the basic themes introduced in X-MEN and X2.

In fact I would lay claim to his point that he "saved" X-3 is entirely dependant on the fact that he just took the script and ran with it and the majority of the studio's expectations to boot. Its what saves him from complete blame regarding the film, because if the project had time then the movie that X-3 was, in contrast to the first 2, would be completely unjustifiable.

True, but in the context of his statement, it's somewhat irrelevant why he saved it, he only said that he did in fact, save it. The project didn't have time, and this is the point. It didn't have a director. It was in some trouble. "What if"-ing about how he would not have been the franchise's savior if the franchise hadn't needed saving strikes me as...well, irrelevant.

There's a difference between not kicking a kid out of your truck into the snowy wilderness (X-Men), being forced to try to protect a bunch of kids from the chaos you brought upon their school (X-Men 2 - where he even said "Leave me! I'll be OK!" and only went begrudgingly with the kids after Rogue's "But we won't") and choosing to be the bigger brother guy that he was in X-Men 3...

...

Since you have apparently forgotten it, I direct you to what is arguably the most important character development scene in X-MEN, the one in the train between Logan and Rogue in X-MEN before Magneto arrives at the train station. That angle had been developed since the initial stages of the first film, and each film developed it further. And it's not like it wasn't in the comics, either. Wolverine HAS been a big brother, usually to Jubiliee, but also to others. That element is there. And always has been.

In X3, he had been staying at the school for a while, and understandably, since he'd been through a lot with them and bought into their way of life, had grown closer to the people around him...just like in the comics. So yeah, he wasn't as quick to abandon them or being aloof or uncaring about their troubles. Which is basically in character for him, because at the end of X2?

"I'll take my chances with him".

I.E, "I buy into this".

Is Wolverine not allowed to have friends now for some reason? To have input into others lives and their choices?

 

[Mad Ones]

This is the problem. Why would a character who has already lost it wax poetic about how she's struggling not to lose it?

The character was not MEANT to struggle overtly. She was meant to have already been consumed by Dark Phoenix. The struggle you speak of was in the scene at Jean's house, and it was seen. Clearly. The "call" to Logan was Jean's subconscious fighting Phoenix's influence, but for Dark Phoenix herself to suddenly "struggle" would have defeated the point of the character's transformation into a cold and evil force.

Okay. The Dark Phoenix wins. I got that. So because she's a cold and evil force, that means she can't talk? Magneto very strongly implied she was a weapon, and was being used, and she just takes it? What's stopping her from killing Magneto and everyone else like she did to Scott? If they wanted Jean to be pure evil than... give her something evil to do. Oh standing around being pushed into a cure storyline that we have no indication she even cares about is just great writing. You'd think if she was so evil she would have bigger plans and goals than to follow an old man around killing a kid.

It's fine to want more. But what I see is you not asking for more of Dark Phoenix destroying things. You want a female Two-Face. You want redundant character development, when we'd already seen it. And in some senses, that might be compelling. But it wouldn't be faithful, and it would, as I said, be redundant.

Funny, when I read the Dark Phoenix Saga it didn't feel very redundant. And I don't get how it would be unfaithful... Jean struggles until the very end... maybe you should read it again.

Yeah...it's not nearly that simple. But thanks for trying to make it sound like it is.

Yeah, they never really focused long enough on Jean to even see a twitch of the eyebrow. Take Jean away from the final battle and it wouldn't even make a difference. I wanted to feel her presence and be afraid of her inevitable freakout... but I didn't because the character wasn't connected to the conflict at all.

You apparently missed her rather important and telling exchange with Magneto in the woods, and that whole...massive scene on Alcatraz Island.

Jean gets mad at Magneto when she suspects he's using and controlling her. Well DUH!! In his speech he tells the crowd they have their weapon, and than looks at Jean. Apparently Phoenix is evil and stupid.

And it's not ridiculous. It's called subtle acting. Twitches, facial expressions, even things actors do with their eyes are important.

Oh how I wish Famke could have acted more in the movie. Anyone could have done the "acting" she did. Anyone could interpret her looks anyway they wanted, but what's the point when the makers of the movie didn't even know what to do with her?

And why do you think that is?

Because she's a pure evil force. Those kind of people don't do anything. Yeah right. Or maybe it's because she's unpredictable and that's scary! Or maybe it's to give other characters more screen time in a 100 minute film.

So...she's not conflicted throughout the rest of the film...and suddenly she just IS...and you think that would have made for a better film because...

Because Jean is a character that's been developed for two films already, and one of the first X-men. Because people care about her, and is a character beyond just evilness. Phoenix being evil is just part of Jean's story in the DPS, it isn't the only thing. But appearantly the character who we've seen evolve so much, who sacrificed her life to save everyone, is nothing more than an evil shrew.

Seeing a little of Jean show through adds so much. It shows that she's a complex and three dimensional character. We should feel conflicted on whether we feel bad for her, or condemn her (something I would love to see a character besides Wolverine do!). But no, this character is flat and all the complexity is taken out.

Your friend isn't far off, though. Jean falls prey to a lack of control and absolute power...and that does tend to lead to pure evil. And Dark Phoenix, in any incarnation I've seen of her, IS pretty much pure evil.

Dark Phoenix is pure evil, yeah, but Jean isn't. In the DPS, Jean was the main character, not phoenix. All throughout the movie she fights with herself. First she is manipulated by the Hellfire Club, becomes Jean again, gives in and is evil, then she enters a psychic battle with Xavier and mental blocks are placed suppressing DP and Jean comes through. On the moon Phoenix comes back, Jean struggles, realizes there is nothing that can stop her, and kills herself.

Maybe you would find that redundant, but I found it compelling and complex. "Jean Grey could have lived to be a god, but it was important that she die as a human." That quote sums up the DPS, and was absolutely not translated into the movie AT ALL.

So...because things turn out alright in the end,or because things may change after we change them, our failures and struggles mean nothing in context?

You mean change them back to EXACTLY how it was at the beginning of the series? Yeah that's great. Let's keep on watching movies where you know nothing matters because by some magic it'll just revert back to how it always was. That's what bringing back all the dead characters and taking away the cure would do.

I would hate it if a new movie came and made everything in these movies moot (though I did hate a lot of X3). People hate retcons for a reason.

We all get Jean wasn't Jean anymore and was complete evil with no chance of redemption. The problem is: 1) that's not complex or compelling in terms of Jean's character and portrayal 2) That's not faithful to the DPS or the character of Jean.

What people mean by Wolverine being Jean's "one true love" is that in X3 only Wolverine was shown to love her throughout the movie. Of course Scott does, but he died so early on that it doesn't even matter. Storm, Beast, the students don't care for her apparently.

But not only does Wolverine care for her, he romantically loves her with a passion that torments his very soul! Oh the drama!

 

[Hound55]

"Smart enough". Right. Do you just not understand the circumstances surrounding X3? You realize that when Ratner came aboard, the script was set, there was basically very little time to alter it, etc?

And are you actually seriously suggesting X3 had no depth? X3 did a fantastic job of fleshing out and elaborating on the basic themes introduced in X-MEN and X2.

True, but in the context of his statement, it's somewhat irrelevant why he saved it, he only said that he did in fact, save it. The project didn't have time, and this is the point. It didn't have a director. It was in some trouble. "What if"-ing about how he would not have been the franchise's savior if the franchise hadn't needed saving strikes me as...well, irrelevant.

Do I not realize the circumstances surrounding X3? I think the following paragraph, which you've quoted and addressed on its own terms rather than WITH the paragraph prior to it as I intended (my fault I guess, should have been clearer), would suggest that I have... settle yourself down and re-read that post with the understanding that I have X-3 and quite like it in its own way...

I make allowances for Ratner because he came on board at the last second and just made it... they didn't have time for anyone new to debate these issues with the studio... which makes Ratner a good choice because he's not going to do that anyway (for reasons that I'll not mention here because there's already been enough Ratner bashing, myself included).

As for lack of depth, I was meaning more in terms of the cameos and in subtleties within perfomances (particularly in X-2). If he couldn't come out and give a character decent enough respect in that regards he wouldn't use them (i.e. I doubt we'd have seen Juggernaut in that incantation under Singer). The only noteable exception to this is Cyclops... and that was a biggie. BUT, if we are to believe Singer on that, he was supposed to have a far bigger role in his version of X-3... and knowing the hard-on he has for Marsden, I believe him.

...

Since you have apparently forgotten it, I direct you to what is arguably the most important character development scene in X-MEN, the one in the train between Logan and Rogue in X-MEN before Magneto arrives at the train station. That angle had been developed since the initial stages of the first film, and each film developed it further. And it's not like it wasn't in the comics, either. Wolverine HAS been a big brother, usually to Jubiliee, but also to others. That element is there. And always has been.

In X3, he had been staying at the school for a while, and understandably, since he'd been through a lot with them and bought into their way of life, had grown closer to the people around him...just like in the comics. So yeah, he wasn't as quick to abandon them or being aloof or uncaring about their troubles. Which is basically in character for him, because at the end of X2?

"I'll take my chances with him".

I.E, "I buy into this".

Is Wolverine not allowed to have friends now for some reason? To have input into others lives and their choices?

The one in the train where Logan says that he's going as well? Because that's rather ambiguous as to whether he actually meant it and did plan on leaving himself... Which I like, because it leaves the character more open to interpretation. Singer then developed this to show a bond primarily with Rogue, which I like and is in character as an eventual process (for the sake of a movie you couldn't really pace it much better). It also makes his "you aren't doing this for a boy?" discussion with Rogue in X-3 fit perfectly.

What I don't like is the general boy scout, bigger brother attitude towards ALL of them based on assumed experience with the kids (which happened off camera... anyway you slice it, that's bad writing - and ultimately it comes down to Ratner as the director to not let **** like that go down. You pick it up and add scenes to show this development of the link between him and the younger characters with time... and there was none of that).

Ultimately, "yes" the version of Wolverine we see in X-3 is a plausible outcome (reliant somewhat on assumptions being made on the viewers end) but its not a version I'm particularly happy with (to me I think he went TOO far down that road to the point of almost coming across as the boyscout) and I think it could have been visualised better if he WAS to take that route - which to me was not the best idea in the first place.

 

[The Guard]

Okay. The Dark Phoenix wins. I got that. So because she's a cold and evil force, that means she can't talk?

She did talk. When she did, she said things that were important. She just didn't talk a whole lot, ostensibly because she was less human, and didn't need to. And as Dark Phoenix, what's there for her to talk about? How evil and powerful she is, and how she can't be stopped, as she did in the comics.

Magneto very strongly implied she was a weapon, and was being used, and she just takes it?

Magneto implied that if humanity tries to cure them, they have weapons. She was just one of them. That isn't really "strongly implying" that she was being used so much as that she was on their side, though yes, he clearly wanted to use her power. She went with him, and with them, of her own accord, though, and this is made fairly clear. She didn't want to be controlled, at all, and Magneto's Brotherhood was all about fighting against being controlled by the government, who was using the cure as a weapon.

What's stopping her from killing Magneto and everyone else like she did to Scott?

What EVER stopped her from killing anyone she was around?

If they wanted Jean to be pure evil than... give her something evil to do. Oh standing around being pushed into a cure storyline that we have no indication she even cares about is just great writing. You'd think if she was so evil she would have bigger plans and goals than to follow an old man around killing a kid.

She had a posessed freakout in the X-Mansion with Logan, displayed a ridiculous amount of power when she "rose" at Alkali Lake, killed Scott, and then killed Xavier in grand, and rather destructive, fashion. That's not evil enough for you until the true might of her powers is revealed later on?

She cares about the cure for the obvious reasons...that she doesn't want to be cured or controlled. There's a reason Magneto said "I think you want to give her the cure", and kept on that tack when speaking with her throughout the film. It's pretty damn clear why she went with the Brotherhood. To ensure the cure didn't become a reality.

Funny, when I read the Dark Phoenix Saga it didn't feel very redundant. And I don't get how it would be unfaithful... Jean struggles until the very end... maybe you should read it again.

I don't recall that at all, at least in the context of Dark Phoenix. Not to any serious degree.

Yeah, they never really focused long enough on Jean to even see a twitch of the eyebrow.

Well, that's certainly not true.

Take Jean away from the final battle and it wouldn't even make a difference.

Come on now. Don't start saying ridiculous things.

I wanted to feel her presence and be afraid of her inevitable freakout... but I didn't because the character wasn't connected to the conflict at all.

You didn't feel her presence and the potential of her powers during the scene with Scott, the fairly massive scene with Xavier, and her lapse of control with Magneto? Enough to go "Wow, wonder what she's really capable of?" That's on you then, I think. Her character was clearly connected to the cure conflict. Several times. Magneto and Xavier discussed it, both in the sense of the real cure, and the sense of Xavier's proposed "cure". She was standing at Magneto's side when he railed against the cure. And when the army tried to cure her...look what she did to them. It's obvious how she's connected to the conflict.

Jean gets mad at Magneto when she suspects he's using and controlling her. Well DUH!! In his speech he tells the crowd they have their weapon, and than looks at Jean. Apparently Phoenix is evil and stupid.

Why is she evil and stupid? She was right there with him. When he says weapons, he's talking about mutant powers. But he's not just talking about her. He's talking about all of their potential, especially hers.

Oh how I wish Famke could have acted more in the movie. Anyone could have done the "acting" she did. Anyone could interpret her looks anyway they wanted, but what's the point when the makers of the movie didn't even know what to do with her?

Yes, her acting can be interpreted. That's the beauty of a subtle performance. Anyone could have acted the way she did?

Nah. Could a lot of actors? Sure. A lot of actors can do a lot of things.

What's your point?

The filmmakers clearly knew what they wanted to do with her. You just don't like it.

Because she's a pure evil force. Those kind of people don't do anything. Yeah right. Or maybe it's because she's unpredictable and that's scary! Or maybe it's to give other characters more screen time in a 100 minute film.

The scene is pretty clearly designed to show how far gone she is that she first reaches out subconsciously, then ignores Logan's attempts to help her and toys with her ability to take away Magneto's power, which is his greatest fear.

It builds tension.

What did you want, exactly?

For her to eat a sun?

For the filmmakers to have a random 10 million dollar "destruction" sequence in the woods to show that she's capable of destroying things? Which we already know?

Because Jean is a character that's been developed for two films already, and one of the first X-men. Because people care about her, and is a character beyond just evilness. Phoenix being evil is just part of Jean's story in the DPS, it isn't the only thing. But appearantly the character who we've seen evolve so much, who sacrificed her life to save everyone, is nothing more than an evil shrew.

So if people cared about her for two films, why wouldn't they care about the horrible thing that happens to her in X3?

I'm iffy on how you, or anyone else, would get the idea that she's just plain evil. She failed to control her power. That doesn't neccessarily make her evil so much as it makes her sick.

But yes, part of Jean Grey, The Dark Phoenix, IS somewhat evil in its lust for power and desire not to be controlled.

Seeing a little of Jean show through adds so much. It shows that she's a complex and three dimensional character.

And we saw that in the film. In the scene with Logan, and in the scene with Xavier. And the struggle by itself isn't really that complex or three dimensional. It's just a Jekyll/Hyde Two/Face persona type struggle. The psychology behind that is what makes the character complex. And we did see that in the movie, the psychology and the relevance to the struggle. So I think we got the complex character to some degree.

We should feel conflicted on whether we feel bad for her, or condemn her (something I would love to see a character besides Wolverine do!). But no, this character is flat and all the complexity is taken out.

Speak for yourself. I felt kind of bad for her, since she's a genuinely good person with a serious monkey on her back that made her do terrible things.

Dark Phoenix is pure evil, yeah, but Jean isn't.

What's your point? Perhaps your friend you spoke of is an idiot, then, since he associated the posessive force that was Dark Phoenix with JEAN, despite the fact that the nature of Dark Phoenix was outright explained in the film.

In the DPS, Jean was the main character, not phoenix. All throughout the movie she fights with herself. First she is manipulated by the Hellfire Club, becomes Jean again, gives in and is evil, then she enters a psychic battle with Xavier and mental blocks are placed suppressing DP and Jean comes through. On the moon Phoenix comes back, Jean struggles, realizes there is nothing that can stop her, and kills herself.

As I recall, she's still Phoenix when she struggles against Mastermind's illusions. As soon as she's freed from them, and overcome by her power, and unable to control it, she becomes Dark Phoenix and doesn't turn back again or do much in the way of struggling against Dark Phoenix until the psychic barriers are placed by Xavier. Now, in the comics, at this point, Jean does struggle against the Phoenix Force in the "battle with Xavier", and we did see that element reflected in the film in a slightly different capacity. And she obviously controls her powers enough over the course of much of the film until the moment with Magneto and until she's overcome with rage at the end of the movie. She even calls out to Logan as Jean. So what's the issue, exactly? That you don't get to hear her say "Wow, it's such a struggle to control my powers"? We've SEEN that outright SHOWN and explained in the film. So it seems the "struggle" idea is very much there, and even represented in a similar context as it was in the comics. The Shi'ar isn't there of course, but the moment where she fights the Phoenix Force and gives Logan an opportunity to end her life is her "sacrifice" element. Her choosing to die a human VS a god or a godlike destructive force. It's right there. T

Those elements are all in the film. They're just not spelled out with dialogue. Nor should they have had to have been, because it's a film.

Maybe you would find that redundant, but I found it compelling and complex. "Jean Grey could have lived to be a god, but it was important that she die as a human." That quote sums up the DPS, and was absolutely not translated into the movie AT ALL.

There comes a point when if you just show the same thing over and over, the complex element becomes expected and predictable. There's got to be character development, and Jean has to succumb to Dark Phoenix for this to happen. Had Jean struggled constantly with the Dark Phoenix, and always been struggling, and fighting to be normal again, there would have been very little surprise factor or drama to her actually overcoming it in the end, because this would have been expected by the audience. Having her fail to control it, to succumb to it and become lost in it, as she did in the comics, is a bit more dramatic for the character, and more satisfying in terms of a story element.

Maybe you would find that redundant, but I found it compelling and complex. "Jean Grey could have lived to be a god, but it was important that she die as a human." That quote sums up the DPS, and was absolutely not translated into the movie AT ALL.

Sure it was.

Or did you not see the godlike destructive force allowing herself to be touched by the love of a friend, and allowing herself to be killed to save everyone?

You mean change them back to EXACTLY how it was at the beginning of the series? Yeah that's great. Let's keep on watching movies where you know nothing matters because by some magic it'll just revert back to how it always was. That's what bringing back all the dead characters and taking away the cure would do.

No, of course I don't mean change them back to exactly how it was. How could things EVER be the same?

I don't think you've thought this through in the context of the X-Men mythology. How would Rogue having known what it was like to once not have the curse of her powers, and Cyclops coming back to life, knowing what it is to die and lose the love of his life to an evil force, and Jean coming back after having been Dark Phoenix be "the same as it was in the beginning"?

I would hate it if a new movie came and made everything in these movies moot (though I did hate a lot of X3). People hate retcons for a reason.

I don't see how these would be retcons.

-The film pretty much shows that the cure isn't permanent.

-We never see Cyclops die.

-And Phoenix obviously has some sort of ability to be reborn.

-Xavier transfers his consciousness, etc.

You're telling me people would hate seeing Rogue actually have to learn to deal with and appreciate her powers, Cyclops and the ties to Sinister and his parallells to Jean's experiences, the new version of Xavier, who is much darker and more manipulative, with more gray moral areas, and Jean Grey having to deal with what she did as Dark Phoenix?

We all get Jean wasn't Jean anymore and was complete evil with no chance of redemption. The problem is: 1) that's not complex or compelling in terms of Jean's character and portrayal 2) That's not faithful to the DPS or the character of Jean.

The film never says she was completely evil, or that she had no chance of redemption. It suggests otherwise, in fact.

What people mean by Wolverine being Jean's "one true love" is that in X3 only Wolverine was shown to love her throughout the movie. Of course Scott does, but he died so early on that it doesn't even matter. Storm, Beast, the students don't care for her apparently.

"It doesn't matter".

See, that's the attitude I don't understand. Arguably the best and most touching romantic moment between Jean and Scott was in X3. But it doesn't matter at all that it was there because Scott died? So...romance, friendship, etc don't matter when people die? Is that what you're telling me?

But not only does Wolverine care for her, he romantically loves her with a passion that torments his very soul! Oh the drama!

This condemnation of melodrama is coming from an X-Men fan?

Do I not realize the circumstances surrounding X3? I think the following paragraph, which you've quoted and addressed on its own terms rather than WITH the paragraph prior to it as I intended (my fault I guess, should have been clearer), would suggest that I have... settle yourself down and re-read that post with the understanding that I have X-3 and quite like it in its own way...

Fair enough. I was iffy on why you'd even make a silly statement like "At least Singer was smart enough to work with Fox, while Ratner wasn't" if you understood the nature of the X3 production process, and Ratner's role in it.

As for lack of depth, I was meaning more in terms of the cameos and in subtleties within perfomances (particularly in X-2). If he couldn't come out and give a character decent enough respect in that regards he wouldn't use them (i.e. I doubt we'd have seen Juggernaut in that incantation under Singer).

Despite the fact that there were also a number of depthless cameos in X-MEN and X2, and we saw a pretty depthless Sabertooth, Toad, and Lady Deathstrike in X-MEN and X2 under Singer?

The only noteable exception to this is Cyclops... and that was a biggie. BUT, if we are to believe Singer on that, he was supposed to have a far bigger role in his version of X-3... and knowing the hard-on he has for Marsden, I believe him.

Ah, but would FOX ever have allowed that?

The one in the train where Logan says that he's going as well? Because that's rather ambiguous as to whether he actually meant it and did plan on leaving himself... Which I like, because it leaves the character more open to interpretation. Singer then developed this to show a bond primarily with Rogue, which I like and is in character as an eventual process (for the sake of a movie you couldn't really pace it much better). It also makes his "you aren't doing this for a boy?" discussion with Rogue in X-3 fit perfectly.

Ambigious or not about his intent to stay with the team, I'm talking about the fact that the "big brother" element was there from the beginning, and you know that. You made statements to the effect that this was a "sudden occurrence" in X3.

What I don't like is the general boy scout, bigger brother attitude towards ALL of them based on assumed experience with the kids (which happened off camera... anyway you slice it, that's bad writing - and ultimately it comes down to Ratner as the director to not let **** like that go down. You pick it up and add scenes to show this development of the link between him and the younger characters with time... and there was none of that).

1. How is that on Ratner when the script was already set?

2. How does this:

Bobby Drake: There's only six of us, Logan.

Logan: Yeah. We're outnumbered. I'm not gonna lie to you. But we lost Scott. We lost the professor. If we don't fight now, everything they stood for will die with them. I'm not gonna let that happen. Are you?

Bobby Drake: [shakes head]

Logan: Then we stand together... X-Men, all of us.

in any way rely on an assumed relationship with the younger X-Men? (We do see that he HAS experience with the children, both in X-MEN, X2 and in X3 as well)

It only relies on the idea that if they don't stand up for what Xavier believed in, an angle all the kids are inherently tied to and then tied to again during the funeral scene, that everything they stood for will die with them.

They are intended to become X-Men, which is clear from the first moments of the film. He's been with Iceman and Rogue since X2. He's worked with Storm as well. Why wouldn't he logically be allowed to speak to them, and recognize the fact that they're all X-Men, in that fashion?

Ultimately, "yes" the version of Wolverine we see in X-3 is a plausible outcome (reliant somewhat on assumptions being made on the viewers end) but its not a version I'm particularly happy with (to me I think he went TOO far down that road to the point of almost coming across as the boyscout) and I think it could have been visualised better if he WAS to take that route - which to me was not the best idea in the first place.

Really? What assumptions does the film's version of the character rely on?

 

[Mad Ones]

Lol, I'm not going to address everything quote by quote because that's extremely tedious, and I feel it's easy to take things out of context of what the person is saying by doing that, but there are a few things I want to talk about.

Phoenix has no reason to trust Magneto at all. She just killed Xavier for roughly the same thing he was doing. Magneto was using her, simple as that. The audience knows that, but I guess Jean doesn't, according to you. But why doesn't she know that? Because his helmet blocks telepathy? Yeah, that's definitely going to stop the power we know Phoenix has.

You mention Magneto saying "I think you want to give her the cure," well that is the first time Jean has even heard of the cure at all, she must of been like "wtf, cure?". I guess she decided her stance on the cure in an off camera scene, and then never decided to talk about it again to anyone. And I hardly doubt Phoenix with her infinite power really cares about mutant rights and such things, Jean absolutely would but that struggle is over. I know you'll reply by saying that Phoenix is fighting the cure because she sees it as something else trying to oppress her. But there is no way in hell anyone would even get close to giving her the cure.

You were the one telling us the reason why we don't see Jean struggling (or any acting whatsoever except for these subtleties you think exist (in the last half of the movie)) was because Dark Phoenix has taken over and is now completely evil. But now you've just changed your position to Jean being sick. If Jean was just sick don't you think we'd see someone else besides Wolverine trying to help her, care for her, or doing anything else besides wanting to kill her (like Storm - we didn't even get to see her come to her conclusion on what should be done with her).

There was a fantastic scene in the DPS where each member of the X-men decides if they even want to fight for Jean on the moon after the horrible things she's done. But in the end each one decides to fight for her because they love her, and understand that she was actually "sick". In the movie she is absolutely pure evil in the eyes of pretty much everyone but Wolverine, and if anyone else felt differently the movie didn't bother to show any of it.

The movie never suggested that Jean could be redeemed at all. All the drama and tragedy was pushed onto Wolverine. He had to fight the one he loved, he had to fight with himself on whether or not Jean should be saved, he had the difficult act of actually killing her and saving everyone else. Only Wolverine, no one else, not even Jean. The writers threw in things like "save me" to appease the fans, not to make Jean redeemable in anyway.

I think it's funny that her letting Wolverine kill her is the same as her killing herself to save everyone. Wolverine's healing ability is what gets himself close to her, Wolverine is the one that convinces her that he would die for her, Wolverine is way more conflicted in that scene, and Wolverine is the one to do the heroic deed. Jean died as human because of WOLVERINE, that's what the movie portrayed (which is awfully unfaithful). It was pathetic the way the movie marginalized so many other characters to make him more important.

Scott didn't matter because he was mentioned very little once he died. He wasn't there for any emotional scenes with her like he was in the comics, he should have been her link to humanity, not freaking Wolverine. But since she killed him, her link was broken and descended into evilness... sickness.. is that how you would justify the writers killing him off? Fine, but that's not faithful to the comics, and a disservice to Scott's character. I understand Scott's death had an impact (on only Jean apparently), but he shouldn't have died in the first place.

The first two movies weren't melodramatic, so why should this one be? Just because the comics are?

Critics were already concerned by characters who had died coming back in X3. I'd hate to see what they'd think when all the dead characters come back... yeah that's how the comic books are, but I think critics and the general audience will start rolling their eyes. The cure being reversed or possible mutated wouldn't be as bad, and actually could be good. But if Xavier comes back in the body of a different person (or his long lost twin even!) I think it would be ridiculous.

 

[The Guard]

If you don't want to respond point by point, fair enough. You ignored several key points of our discussion in refusing to do so, however. Was hoping to see your response to some of that.

Ah well.

Dark Phoenix may not have much reason to trust Magneto, but she knows that Magneto is someone who doesn't want her to be held back, and who wants her to reach her full potential. From her mindset, Xavier was her enemy, and Magneto was on her side.

In what way is Magneto actually using her during the course of the film? Ok, he took her with him. But they have similar goals. Neither of them wants to be controlled, and their mutual dislike (even fear) of the idea of being "cured" or diminished is apparent. There's a difference between having similar beliefs and goals and outright using someone. Perhaps Magneto wanted to use her, at least to further the mutant Brotherhood's cause...but she made it pretty clear that wasn't going to happen in the forest during the scene between them. So in what sense did he actually use her?

I think you're missing the point of the "I think you want to give her the cure" line. It's not about whether she knows what The Cure is. And even then, she's Dark Phoenix. It's entirely possible she, already being a psychic, and now a more powerful one, knows about the cure. But when Magneto says "Give her the cure", it's twofold. It's not only about the actual physical cure, but about diminishing Jean's power, and curing her "disease" via psychic means, which she does not want.

I have not changed my position on why Jean doesn't struggle in the least. And I never said Jean was evil. I said Dark Phoenix was. I even elaborated on that:

I'm iffy on how you, or anyone else, would get the idea that she's just plain evil. She failed to control her power. That doesn't neccessarily make her evil so much as it makes her sick.

But yes, part of Jean Grey, The Dark Phoenix, IS somewhat evil in its lust for power and desire not to be controlled.

I feel that it should be pretty clear that I don't think "Dark Phoenix" is the same character as "Jean".

My position was always that she struggled earlier in the film, and, like the comics version of events, lost herself to Dark Phoenix, and that this is why we don't see much of a struggle until the end of the film.

As for the X-Men's reactions to Phoenix...I don't feel X3 was perfect, or that it got everything about the Phoenix Saga right. Her teammates reaction to what had happened to her and deciding to face her as an enemy, etc, is one of it's weak spots, I'll agree with that.

The movie doesn't really need to have a character overtly suggest Jean can be redeemed. It's a subtle element that is nontheless inherent to the saga. Her redemption path is clear: overcoming the influence of Dark Phoenix and ending the threat she poses, and this should be obvious to anyone watching the film, and the movie does, at several points, suggest this is possible. Why do you think the writers, who bothered to put Xavier's last words to Jean of "Don't let it control you" (and her reaction to this) in his death sequence, instead of just having Phoenix killed outright at the end of the movie, bothered to show her calling out subconsciously for Wolverine, bothered to show her come back for a moment toward the end, and struggling at all with what she was becoming earlier in the film? Because she was intended to redeem herself as best she can.

The fact that you think Wolverine simply "survived" because he has healing abilities is laughable. The woman took a building, a jet, vehicles, and soldiers apart without a thought. What, she can't handle Wolverine's skin just because he can heal? He can't heal THAT fast.

Dark Phoenix was essentially toying with him as she took him apart piece by piece, and as he got closer, Jean started fighting the Dark Phoenix for control. You can see it pretty clearly in her performance.

As far as Scott mattering during the film...no, Scott did not so much "matter" after he disappeared, (his apparent death did), but his moments onscreen did matter, and had weight to them.

Did you just suggest that the first two movies were not melodramatic? Are you remotely serious?

I could give a fig if critics didn't understand "rebirth" in the context of the X-Men franchise, or thought it was an issue. If the audience somehow doesn't roll their eyes at all the absurd powers and weirdness but suddenly can't stomach rebirth? Screw 'em. A LOT of things about the X-Men mythology are ridiculous. Doesn't mean they don't work.

 

[Mad Ones]

Sorry, there's just way too many things to respond to that I just picked and chose what I felt was most important. What else did you want me to respond to?

Anyway,

Magneto is blatantly using Jean. It's very obvious to the audience. It's no coincidence that as soon as Phoenix emerges Magneto is suddenly interested in her. He is manipulating her, taking his situation and applying it to her in order for him to control her as a weapon. The movie makes it very clear. The fact that Phoenix can't see through this when, as you admitted, is an extremely powerful telepath is ridiculous. And the cure is so far below her that I'd hardly think she would care about it. It could never affect her, who has the power of a god.

I understand Magneto's cure reference. I was just making a joke. But you saying that Jean could have found out about it already because of her powers is interpreting things beyond what the movie actually offers. It's practically making things up. All we know is what is present in the movie.

I agree with you about Jean not being evil, while Dark Phoenix is. I just wish more characters would have acknowledged that as well.

Jean was not redeemable in the film. I'm sorry, I can't agree with you. Jean was redeemed in the DPS, without anyone saying "Jean has been redeemed!!" It was subtle (as subtle as a comic could get lol). In the film I never felt Jean redeemed herself, or that other characters viewed her as redeemed. Her path of redemption was non-existent. Xavier telling her not to let it control her lead to nothing. She let it control her until the heroic Wolverine saved her. It's just another example of the last half of the movie being inferior to the first. Asking Logan to do it for her is not even comparable to the situation in the comics, at all.

A scene in the concluding part of the movie dealing with Jean would have helped a lot. Maybe Wolverine could have said something to Storm or Beast about feeling Jean helping him, or some reference to Jean after she died might of helped. But we're just left with Wolverine saving the day, and Jean not being mentioned again except for a headstone.

I see you're already in a discussion about Wolverine's healing abilities and whether or not Jean was helping him (must be busy being one of two people defending this movie), so I won't talk about it too much. But my position is that we were not given any indication that Jean was remotely struggling with the Phoenix while Wolvie was walking up to her. Her expression was as evil as ever and his healing factor was writen as badly as possible. Maybe she was toying with him, we don't know because the movie never makes that clear.

I've said all I can say about Scott and how I feel he was handled.

I didn't find the first two overly melodramatic, especially compared to other superhero movies. Wolverine crying twice, expressing his tragic love for Jean, the long shot on the veranda, and the cheesy comedy (fur ball) made this movie notably more melodramatic/cheesy than the other two.

 

[cronosred]

I didn't find the first two overly melodramatic, especially compared to other superhero movies. Wolverine crying twice, expressing his tragic love for Jean, the long shot on the veranda, and the cheesy comedy (fur ball) made this movie notably more melodramatic/cheesy than the other two.

Unlike the first X-men with Rogue either pouting or being scared throughout the whole film, Wolverine crying over Rogue in the end, and Logan asking if Professor X is called (Wheels).

 

[The Guard]

Sure, Magneto WANTS to use her.

But you say he IS using her. Magneto is blatantly using her for what? Be specific.

You say he's taking his situation and applying it to her...that's true...but it's an issue she already felt strongly about. So how is that really directly using her, or even all that manipulative of him? What Magneto does most in X3 is ENCOURAGE her, and that's why he says "What have I done?". Because unlike Charles, who was careful with power, he abuses it and its potential.

And Dark Phoenix can clearly see he is potentially trying to use her for something. Reference the scene where she basically shows him who is in charge with the cure gun. And she also shows clealry...that she isn't going to be used.

So now you were making a joke about the cure? Hmm...must have missed the humor in that one. As far as me "interpreting more than the movie offers", I already said...the cure thing is in relation to Jean's "disease" more than anything else. I was simply offering a possible explanation of how she could potentially know about the cure based on common sense and logic, since you made a big deal out of that. Given the size of an announcement like the cure and the extent of her powers...it seems logical she could know about it in a number of ways.

Not that this is what the scene is about.

When you say "Jean was not redeemable", what do you mean by that? If anything, Jean was MORE redeemable in the film than she was in the comics, because she did a far less horrible thing in the film than she did in the comics. Her path to redemption, as it was in the comics, was there, and it was fairly simple. It was her beating the influence of Dark Phoenix, and sacrificing herself to end the threat Dark Phoenix posed.

You obviously hate the use of Wolverine so much you're just going to ignore any element that involves him as anything except bad writing. Fair enough.

As far as "It's just his healing factor that kept him alive". Think about that for a second. Think about the kind of moment that's occurring between the two characters, and the level of power she's shown to have in that sequence. The writers of X3 may not have been thorough enough in exploring the saga and its implications, but neither were they downright stupid. Films shouldn't need to spell out such things out for an audience. Why else do you think Dark Phoenix didn't just blow the skin and meat off Wolverine's bones, if Jean didn't have some element of control over what was happening?

Her expression wasn't "as evil as ever". In fact, when he starts to move toward her, it's the first time we see Dark Phoenix looking conflicted or outright threatened since Xavier told her not to let it control her back in her childhood home. There's no WAY Logan would have gotten that close to her, had Jean not allowed it to happen.

And I didn't ask you if you felt the first two movies were overly melodramatic. You said "The first two movies weren't melodramatic", which I found to be a silly statement, and I said so.

So...your issues with overly dramatic melodrama are Logan crying twice (oh no, not twice!)...the veranda scene (which one?), and some cheesy humor? X-MEN and X2 had cheesy humor too. And crying over someone you cared about dying is melodramatic...just...because?

 

[The Guard]

Unlike the first X-men with Rogue either pouting or being scared throughout the whole film, Wolverine crying over Rogue in the end, and Logan asking if Professor X is called (Wheels)?

Heh.

 

[cronosred]

So...your issues are Logan crying...the veranda scene (which one again?), and some cheesy humor? X-MEN and X2 had cheesy humor too. And crying over someone you cared about dying is melodramatic...just...because?

I don't know why people even make an issue out of Wolverine crying in X-men 3.

X-Men 1- Wolverine crying while holding Rogue
X-Men 2- Wolverine crying while holding Cyclops
X-Men 3- Wolverine crying while holding Jean

 

[The Guard]

Nor do I.

 

[Mad Ones]

What Magneto was using Jean for: I have no freaking clue. The movie never made it clear what Magneto's overall goal for bringing Jean into the conflict was (but I assume fire power in killing Leach and fighting other people). When Jean did what everyone expected her to do, Magneto was shocked... doesn't make sense to me.

I hardly think Magneto was simply encouraging her and mentoring her because he feels like it. That's not in character, and it's just stupid. He wanted to harness her power and use if for his own gains.

So Jean emerges, kills Scott, wakes up and talks with Logan, makes out, runs to her home, and immediately conflicts with Xavier. I'm not sure Jean or Phoenix would have enough to time to learn about the detail of the cure, and really think about it. Nor do I think she would care. Yeah, I totally understand Magneto's use of the cure in that scene. It was really, really obvious. But this discussion is irrelevant because we don't know whether or not she knows anything about it.

Okay, Phoenix is a little bit onto Magneto and threatens him a little bit. He's still confident that bringing her to the battle is a great plan, and Jean tags along because she feels passionately about fighting the cure that has no chance of curing her. What did she plan to do afterward, hang around Magneto like Mystique or Callisto for a while?

Jean wasn't redeemable because once she gave into the Phoenix she never emerged again, except for a second to let Wolverine kill her. It was all Wolverine's doing. If he wasn't there, than she wouldn't have stopped being evil. It wasn't her on her own, she didn't make the choice to kill herself, it was all in the hands of Wolverine because he's awesome. Jean was at her best in the infirmary scene, and we should have seen that again in the emotional climax of the story, and end it with her killing herself because she was the only one who could do it, and she knew it was right. Not goddamn Logan "saving" her.

I hate Wolverine when he's shoved in my face as a character I know he's not, in a situation he has no right being in, that takes away from several other characters. That's bad writing.

Some cheesy humour was in the first two, especially the first one, but there was so much more to like about those movies than this one, so it doesn't bother me that much. The veranda scene I'm talking about was the wide shot of Wolverine on the balcony looking onto the horizon, blah. Again, Wolverine was the ONLY one shown crying over Jean. Of course she was in his arms, and we see HIS pain.

Yeah, I didn't find the first two melodramatic enough to bother me. Sure Wolverine cried in the first two, maybe that's why it was starting to annoy me the third and fourth time he collapsed into tears. I definitely think he should have reacted differently to sadness in all movies, but at least I was engaged for the first two.

 

[returntovoid]

I don't know why people even make an issue out of Wolverine crying in X-men 3.

X-Men 1- Wolverine crying while holding Rogue
X-Men 2- Wolverine crying while holding Cyclops
X-Men 3- Wolverine crying while holding Jean

X1- It was a silent cry
X2- Wolverine didn't cry, it was Cyclops who cried
X3- He had two nervous breakdowns, one after Xavier died and the other after killing Jean Grey

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

What Magneto was using Jean for: I have no freaking clue. The movie never made it clear what Magneto's overall goal for bringing Jean into the conflict was (but I assume fire power in killing Leach and fighting other people). When Jean did what everyone expected her to do, Magneto was shocked... doesn't make sense to me.

I hardly think Magneto was simply encouraging her and mentoring her because he feels like it. That's not in character, and it's just stupid. He wanted to harness her power and use if for his own gains.

So Jean emerges, kills Scott, wakes up and talks with Logan, makes out, runs to her home, and immediately conflicts with Xavier. I'm not sure Jean or Phoenix would have enough to time to learn about the detail of the cure, and really think about it. Nor do I think she would care. Yeah, I totally understand Magneto's use of the cure in that scene. It was really, really obvious. But this discussion is irrelevant because we don't know whether or not she knows anything about it.

Okay, Phoenix is a little bit onto Magneto and threatens him a little bit. He's still confident that bringing her to the battle is a great plan, and Jean tags along because she feels passionately about fighting the cure that has no chance of curing her. What did she plan to do afterward, hang around Magneto like Mystique or Callisto for a while?

Jean wasn't redeemable because once she gave into the Phoenix she never emerged again, except for a second to let Wolverine kill her. It was all Wolverine's doing. If he wasn't there, than she wouldn't have stopped being evil. It wasn't her on her own, she didn't make the choice to kill herself, it was all in the hands of Wolverine because he's awesome. Jean was at her best in the infirmary scene, and we should have seen that again in the emotional climax of the story, and end it with her killing herself because she was the only one who could do it, and she knew it was right. Not goddamn Logan "saving" her.

I hate Wolverine when he's shoved in my face as a character I know he's not, in a situation he has no right being in, that takes away from several other characters. That's bad writing.

Some cheesy humour was in the first two, especially the first one, but there was so much more to like about those movies than this one, so it doesn't bother me that much. The veranda scene I'm talking about was the wide shot of Wolverine on the balcony looking onto the horizon, blah. Again, Wolverine was the ONLY one shown crying over Jean. Of course she was in his arms, and we see HIS pain.

Yeah, I didn't find the first two melodramatic enough to bother me. Sure Wolverine cried in the first two, maybe that's why it was starting to annoy me the third and fourth time he collapsed into tears. I definitely think he should have reacted differently to sadness in all movies, but at least I was engaged for the first two.

Can I just say I couldnt agree more with your last few posts, reading them reminds me of why I have such a disgust for the terrible movie that is X3. Like you have pointed out, Jean killed Xavier for wanting to control her and then Magneto just uses her as a weapon, and she is perfectly happy with this? Ridiculous, especially since she is psychic so know's everyone in the camp distrusts her.

We also have NO semblence of her stance on the cure because she is never given one, and shows no emotion towards it as she does for anything for the whole 2nd half of the movie. Its a joke of a movie IMO.

 

[cronosred]

X1- It was a silent cry
X2- Wolverine didn't cry, it was Cyclops who cried
X3- He had two nervous breakdowns, one after Xavier died and the other after killing Jean Grey

I don't care what spin you want to put on it, everytime Logan believed someone died in these movies he grabbed onto someone and cried.

 

[The Guard]

Pretty sure Wolverine cried in X2.

More later.

 

[The Guard]

Magneto was shocked at the destructive extent of Jean's powers, as well he probably should have been. I think he knew she was powerful and unpredictable, but not nearly on that level. She killed Xavier because Xavier had been trying to contain her, but she killed anyone and everything within reach except Logan on Alcatraz.

Magneto clearly wanted Jean to fight with them. He even said to her. "If we want freedom, we must fight for it. And that fight begins now". His intentions for her, while not specific, were nonthless pretty clear.

You are missing the point again on this whole "how she could have known about the cure" thing. Jean is psychic. So is Dark Phoenix. She wouldn't exactly have had to have watched a TV. She may well just have known about it through psychic channels.

The cure doesn't cure anyone, not permanently, but the mutants and humans don't know that yet.

What do you mean "What did she plan to do afterward"? What did Dark Phoenix EVER plan to do "after"? She's usually about power. Clearly Jean wasn't quite to the point where that's all she wanted yet until the end of the film. Dark Phoenix was in her infancy.

Jean DID emerge after she gave into Dark Phoenix (Phoenix, though not named, was seen in X2 and at the beginning of X3. What we see in X3 is Dark Phoenix). There's a moment where she's clearly still there during the battle with Xavier, and she also calls out to Logan before the final battle as well. And you can also see a moment of "recognition" when the X-Men arrive, as she sort of "wakes up" for a moment. Then there's the whole "It's over" Jean moment, which makes it pretty apparent she's still there.

Now how come she's not redeemable simply because she never "emerged" until she emerged to redeem herself? What bearing does that have on whether she can be redeemed or not?

Jean made a clear choice to allow herself to die. She redeemed herself as much as she was ever going to in her final moments. I fail to see how Jean killing herself VS allowing someone else to kill her is ultimately any more redeeming. She beat Dark Phoenix's influence, and held back the entity long enough to be killed in some fashion. In many religions and cultures, suicide is yet another mortal sin.

Wolverine being put into situations other characters should be in is unfaithful writing, not bad writing. There is a difference.

Vague statements like "There was so much more to like about those movies than this one" doesn't impress me much. I'm not condeming your like of the other movies over X3. I'm condeming the absurd statements about how this element or that element wasn't in the previous films. You'd be better off just saying "I liked X-MEN and X2" better and leaving it at that, and not trying to justify it with ridiculous statements like "The other films didn't have this or that".

We also have NO semblence of her stance on the cure because she is never given one, and shows no emotion towards it as she does for anything for the whole 2nd half of the movie. Its a joke of a movie IMO.

You have no point of reference for Jean's stance on the cure?

Really?

Did you miss the scenes where Xavier tried to cure her, where Magneto said "I think you want to give her the cure" and what happened to Xavier when Dark Phoenix out he wanted to cure/help her become more normal again?

Did you not see her reaction to Magneto telling her what the cure was being used for?

Did you not see her marching with Magneto's Brotherhood against the cure?

Did you not see what happened to the soldiers who tried to cure her?

No semblance of her stance on the cure? Are you serious?

She clearly didn't want to be cured. In any way.

 

[Mad Ones]

I'm referring to Dark Phoenix as Phoenix, because according to the movie Dark Phoenix doesn't exist and it's just Phoenix. It didn't bother to explain the difference between Phoenix, and Dark phoenix. (that would require more writing, and that simply won't due in a 104 minute movie).

You're the one that missed my point on the subject of Jean and the cure. I know she could have gotten information from any human mind on the planet. But I don't think she cares. She just killed Scott, she's blocking herself from Xavier, and is still struggling and extremely fragile. I doubt catching up on current events is on her list of priorities. Mixing the cure and Phoenix storyline just failed. Obviously she doesn't want to be cured or controlled (therefore she decides to be Magneto's puppet), but with her power levels it is highly unlikely she would ever be cured that way, and should be in a class all to herself. Not marching with the likes of Callisto and Juggernaut, who she should know don't want her around. If she wanted the cure gone she would have obliterated Leach, and destroyed every single cure sample on the planet in a matter of seconds. But she follows Magneto around?!

I'm sorry, but I've said everything I could possibly say about how I feel about the movie, and if there's something you don't understand from my last post, I can't help you. And I'm not trying to impress you.