Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 2

[Marvolo]

Honestly, the only character I found annoying in the Buffyverse was Kennedy. And that had more to do with the performance than the actual character. Were the actor's inflections less forced I'd probably have liked her just fine.

Riley rivals Conner and Kennedy. They should have locked Conner and Riley in a pit with a werewolf and let them fight to the death.

 

[flickchick85]

Riley rivals Conner and Kennedy. They should have locked Conner and Riley in a pit with a werewolf and let them fight to the death.

Unfortunately, that would still leave Connor alive.

 

[Sawyer]

Riley doesn't come anywhere near Connor or Kennedy.

 

[Matt]

Riley was boring and poorly acted but not annoying.

 

[Marvolo]

Riley doesn't come anywhere near Connor or Kennedy.

That may be, but I still hated the guy.

Riley was boring and poorly acted but not annoying.

He annoyed me to no end. For that matter season 4 annoyed me to no end.

 

[The Question]

I will never understand the dislike for Riley. He was fine. I really dug the Captain America thing he had going on.

I also don't REALLY get the problem with Connor. I mean, yes, he was kind of a *****, but it's not like the writers failed to see this, it was the entire point of the character and the narrative acknowledged how messed up he was. I thought he was a really interesting character.

Like I said, Kennedy's the only open who bugs me, and again I think that's just because she was miscast.

 

[SuperBatman]

I actually didn't get bothered with Connor like some people did. Dawn though annoyed the hell out of me.

 

[Sawyer]

I think Dawn has arguably more reasons to be annoying than Connor. I mean, teenage girls are fairly annoying as it is. But a teenage girl that finds out that her existence is a fraud, that her blood can be used to destroy the world, that watches her mother fall ill for months before dying when they all thought she was going to be just fine, that loses her sister when she sacrifices herself in Dawn's place and then mopes around for months after springing back to life, watches her surrogate lesbian witch mothers break up and get addicted to magic and get killed all over the place..... I think a bit of shoplifting and whining is to be expected.

Connor, however.... life in a hell dimension should've toughened him up a bit.

 

[flickchick85]

I will never understand the dislike for Riley. He was fine. I really dug the Captain America thing he had going on.

Ew. Riley wishes.

I hated Riley because of the whole passive-aggressive closet-misogyny thing he had going on. Everything that went wrong with their relationship boiled back to the fact that he couldn't handle Buffy being stronger than him - both physically and emotionally. He wanted to be "needed" like a man. He loved having a Slayer as a girlfriend, as long as he could still feel like her Knight in Shining Armor. Say what you will about Angel, but he never had a problem with being the weaker party in their relationship, lol. I like to think Steve Rogers, even with his old-fashioned values, has the strength of character to be perfectly ok with a girlfriend that's more powerful than him, and doesn't always need to be her white knight. He certainly didn't seem to have trouble adjusting to Peggy Carter or Black Widow not conforming to the traditional female role.

 

[The Question]

Ew. Riley wishes.

I hated Riley because of the whole passive-aggressive closet-misogyny thing he had going on. Everything that went wrong with their relationship boiled back to the fact that he couldn't handle Buffy being stronger than him - both physically and emotionally. He wanted to be "needed" like a man. He loved having a Slayer as a girlfriend, as long as he could still feel like her Knight in Shining Armor. Say what you will about Angel, but he never had a problem with being the weaker party in their relationship, lol. I like to think Steve Rogers, even with his old-fashioned values, has the strength of character to be perfectly ok with a girlfriend that's more powerful than him, and doesn't always need to be her white knight. He certainly didn't seem to have trouble adjusting to Peggy Carter or Black Widow not conforming to the traditional female role.

I don't really think that's it. He was wigged by the power imbalance in the relationship, but I think there was a lot more to what was wrong with their relationship than that. It never seemed like he was bothered that she was stronger than him so much that he felt generally useless, both to her and in life since he lost the sense of purpose The Initiative gave him. Plus, there was the whole "he liked her more than she liked him" thing. And even if that wasn't actually true (although it really seemed like it was to me) the fact that it felt that was to him created another kind of power imbalance that was a contributing factor.

Personally, I don't think there was anything "closet misogynist" about him. Not to say that he was completely in the right, because he wasn't, but reasons they broke up and his issues with the relationship were more complicated than him simply not liking that she was stronger than him.

 

[Young Superman]

Whatever happened to the Buffy Reboot? I hope it's dead.

 

[The Question]

I don't care. Might be good for a laugh.

 

[Sawyer]

Doing Buffy without Joss Whedon is like trying to have sex without having an erection.

Just. ****ing. Pointless.

 

[The Question]

Doing Buffy without Joss Whedon is like trying to have sex without having an erection.

Just. ****ing. Pointless.

It may be pointless. But then, if nothing we make into movies matter, then the only thing that matters is if we can kill two hours with some fun shlock.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't really think that's it. He was wigged by the power imbalance in the relationship, but I think there was a lot more to what was wrong with their relationship than that. It never seemed like he was bothered that she was stronger than him so much that he felt generally useless, both to her and in life since he lost the sense of purpose The Initiative gave him. Plus, there was the whole "he liked her more than she liked him" thing. And even if that wasn't actually true (although it really seemed like it was to me) the fact that it felt that was to him created another kind of power imbalance that was a contributing factor.

Personally, I don't think there was anything "closet misogynist" about him. Not to say that he was completely in the right, because he wasn't, but reasons they broke up and his issues with the relationship were more complicated than him simply not liking that she was stronger than him.

I said it "boils back to that." As in, there are other issues, but they all stem from that simple point.

-He was all sad and pathetic that her first thought when her mom was rushed to the hospital wasn't to call him, her white knight. Sorry Riley, but it's soooo not about you right now.

-He cheated on her with those vampire ****es (and yes, that was cheating, I don't care if sex was involved) because "they made him feel needed." Come on, now. If that's not a blatant metaphor for the excuse of actual cheaters, I don't know what is.

-He hates letting Buffy rescue him. He almost let himself DIE rather than let Buffy save him, because the end result would be him being weaker. (Again, Angel never had any problems with Buffy saving his a** pretty much every chance she got).

-Buffy was NEVER gonna be the type to cry into her boyfriend's shoulder. She'll vent to them, or let them hold her, but when she has a breakdown and cries into someone's shoulder, it's Willow's. Yet Riley used that as evidence that she just wasn't committed to their relationship.

-That entire BS ultimatum when he left. "Say you need me NOW, even though I just did something really horrible and possibly unforgivable, or I'm gone forever. You have 2 hours." If HE was as into the relationship as he claimed, he would have told the Initiative to f*** off and stayed long enough for her to deal with the shocking betrayal he'd just dealt her. Just for the chance that they could work it out. But no, it's her fault, because she wasn't giving herself to him fully to his standards. Good riddance.

-Sure, he'd lost his sense of purpose with the whole Initiative debacle, but so did Giles when he was fired as a Watcher - that didn't cause him to go do stupid s*** to prove his manliness, I mean "worth." All the other Scoobies were fine with being sidekicks. Helping out Buffy fighting evil was purpose enough. Riley still had that need to be an alpha male.

The "closet misogyny" I'm referring to is about expectations: He claims to be ok with having a strong, independent girlfriend, yet he consistently expects their relationship to conform to the traditional social construct that puts the man in the position of strength. Speaking from experience, it sucks.

For other (probably better) explanations, check out the hundreds of comments on MarkWatches' review of "Into The Woods" from not too long ago (you just have to scroll down a tad. I'm not linking directly to the review because there's a great deal of cursing...): http://markwatches.net/reviews/2012/05/

Riley was the worst kind of a-hole - the kind who genuinely thinks he's "the nice guy." Captain America he was not, imo.

 

[The Question]

I said it "boils back to that." As in, there are other issues, but they all stem from that simple point.

I don't think it boils back to that, though. I think it boils back to the fact that without the Initiative he didn't have any sense of purpose or meaning in his life. Most of the real problems (jealousy over Angel aside) happened after he lost the one thing that defined who he was almost completely. Add to that the fact that he felt like she didn't love him the way he loved her. Honestly, I think any discomfort over her being stronger was a reflection of his lack of direction or purpose, not the other way around.

I mean, like, I'm not saying Riley didn't do anything wrong. I'm saying that I don't hate him as a character for it and I don't think the wrong he did came from a place of misogyny. It came from a place of general insecurity and self doubt. The fact that it manifested through his relationship with Buffy is largely a matter of circumstance. It never seemed, to be, like he really cared that Buffy was stronger than him in the sense that the man in the relationship should be the one who's stronger. All in all, it really seemed like what was bothering him is that he felt generally useless and his entire life up until that point was defined by how he could be of use. Not so much that she was stronger than him, more that he was too weak to be useful to her. And I think that's a pretty big distinction.

He screwed up, he did some pretty bad ****, that's very true, but all in all I think his arc was really interesting and kind of sad.

 

[flickchick85]

I don't think it boils back to that, though. I think it boils back to the fact that without the Initiative he didn't have any sense of purpose or meaning in his life. Most of the real problems (jealousy over Angel aside) happened after he lost the one thing that defined who he was almost completely. Add to that the fact that he felt like she didn't love him the way he loved her. Honestly, I think any discomfort over her being stronger was a reflection of his lack of direction or purpose, not the other way around.

Except the issue existed BEFORE he lost that sense of purpose. Even when the Initiative was fully-functioning with him as Mr. Cowboy Guy* and all that, he was never comfortable with stepping back and letting Buffy doing her own thing. He had to induct her into the Initiative, rather than contemplate, even for a second, that SHE was the authority, that SHE was the alpha. I think that scene where they are sparring, and he asks her not to hold back, says it all. She WAS holding back, but she didn't want to emasculate him. Because to him, it was emasculating that she was holding back. Again, I hate to keep bringing up Angel since he was SO far from perfect, but he's the only other one Buffy every claimed to truly love, so he's the only comparison to make - Angel would be appreciative of her holding back. Like he said in one episode when they had a tussle, "In case you forgot, you're a little stronger than me."

And like I said, when Giles lost his sense of purpose when he was fired from the Watchers council and pretty much drifted about for 1.5 seasons, he didn't go off and do stupid, suicidal s*** to prove his manliness/worth. Riley's contrasting reaction to that same life-change came out of his need to be an alpha...something he was never all that good at in the first place. He was always a follower playing at being a leader.

*It's no coincidence Joss made him "Cowboy Guy" in Restless.

I'm saying that I don't hate him as a character for it and I don't think the wrong he did came from a place of misogyny. It came from a place of general insecurity and self doubt.

That's where misogyny comes from.

One thing we agree on is that the way the arc ended was sad. But to me it was sad because Xander convinced Buffy that it was her fault and that she'd just made the greatest mistake of her life. Your friend's boyfriend was just caught essentially cheating (or doing something despicable and intimate with another woman) and gave her an ultimatum, and you say, "This is your doing! Go get him! He's the one!" Great friend you are, Xander. Good friends are supposed to say, "you deserve better." Buffy really didn't need that burden of failure on top of everything else she was dealing with. That, to me, is what was sad.

 

[The Question]

Except the issue existed BEFORE he lost that sense of purpose. Even when the Initiative was fully-functioning with him as Mr. Cowboy Guy* and all that, he was never comfortable with stepping back and letting Buffy doing her own thing. He had to induct her into the Initiative, rather than contemplate, even for a second, that SHE was the authority, that SHE was the alpha. I think that scene where they are sparring, and he asks her not to hold back, says it all. She WAS holding back, but she didn't want to emasculate him. Because to him, it was emasculating that she was holding back. Again, I hate to keep bringing up Angel since he was SO far from perfect, but he's the only other one Buffy every claimed to truly love, so he's the only comparison to make - Angel would be appreciative of her holding back. Like he said in one episode when they had a tussle, "In case you forgot, you're a little stronger than me."

None of that stuff really seems that unreasonable to me, though. He didn't even know that The Slayer existed before he met Buffy. Makes sense that it would take him time to wrap his head around the concept. And the inducting her into the Initiative thing wasn't a misogynist thing, it was a military thing. He's a government agent bringing in a civilian as a consultant, he's trained to act like the authority in that situation. A big part of his character arc in the 4th season was shaking off that government way of thinking.

And like I said, when Giles lost his sense of purpose when he was fired from the Watchers council and pretty much drifted about for 1.5 seasons, he didn't go off and do stupid, suicidal s*** to prove his manliness/worth. Riley's contrasting reaction to that same life-change came out of his need to be an alpha...something he was never all that good at in the first place. He was always a follower playing at being a leader.

Yeah. Because Giles is older and wiser and DID do stupid suicidal **** while he was desperately looking for a purpose in life when he was around Riley's age, and got scared straight as a result. They're different guys.

Look, I'm not arguing that what Riley did wasn't wrong or stupid. What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem like it comes from a place of misogyny so much as poor self image, and even if it does it doesn't make me hate him because he's still an interesting and well developed character. The morality of the actions of characters isn't a factor in wether or not I like them.

 

[The Question]

That's where misogyny comes from.

True, but I don't think that means he was a misogynist. He seemed much more bothered by the fact that he was unable to be of use to her than the fact that she was stronger than him, and I think that's an important difference.

One thing we agree on is that the way the arc ended was sad. But to me it was sad because Xander convinced Buffy that it was her fault and that she'd just made the greatest mistake of her life. Your friend's boyfriend was just caught essentially cheating (or doing something despicable and intimate with another woman) and gave her an ultimatum, and you say, "This is your doing! Go get him! He's the one!" Great friend you are, Xander. Good friends are supposed to say, "you deserve better." Buffy really didn't need that burden of failure on top of everything else she was dealing with. That, to me, is what was sad.

I don't think things are that clear cut in relationships. There's no three strikes law when it comes to relationships, nor should they be. Yes, people shouldn't treat each other poorly, it's all a lot more complicated than what you're describing. What Xander said basically boiled down to "If you want to work things out with Riley, then do so." And that seems like a reasonable thing to say.

 

[flickchick85]

None of that stuff really seems that unreasonable to me, though. He didn't even know that The Slayer existed before he met Buffy. Makes sense that it would take him time to wrap his head around the concept. And the inducting her into the Initiative thing wasn't a misogynist thing, it was a military thing. He's a government agent bringing in a civilian as a consultant, he's trained to act like the authority in that situation. A big part of his character arc in the 4th season was shaking off that government way of thinking.

I should preface this by saying I grew up in a military family: My father is a retired Army Colonel and West Point grad, like my grandfather before him, and I'm very proud of both of them...but: misogynistic thinking and military thinking often go hand in hand. And that's not throwing an insult at the military - the same goes for almost ALL antiquated, pre-feminism schools of tradition. Just because military training is the root of condescending and patronizing behavior Buffy was subjected to by the Initiative (and in some cases, Riley) in S4 doesn't make it any less misogynistic.

For the record, when I use the term "misogynistic," I want you to know I don't mean it in its most overt sense of meaning: I'm not suggesting Riley has any kind of underlying hatred of women at all. I'm using it in the looser sense of Feminist Theory - that he has preconceived notions of what a woman should be to a man, which is spurring negative behavior on his part when they don't conform to it.

Yeah. Because Giles is older and wiser and DID do stupid suicidal **** while he was desperately looking for a purpose in life when he was around Riley's age, and got scared straight as a result. They're different guys.

Giles' days as a dangerously rebellious teenager are a totally different situation. What happened to adult Giles and what happened to Riley are far more similar, but you're right - age and wisdom separate them. But their attitudes toward Buffy and her power ALSO separate them. I mean, look at Giles - he's her father figure. If anyone should feel like an alpha male toward her and feel emasculated when he loses his position as her Watcher, it should be him. But he has never had any problem letting her take charge and make her own mistakes. The only time he did was with her dealings with Spike in S7, and she rightfully responded by shutting the door (literally and metaphorically) in Giles' face.

Look, I'm not arguing that what Riley did wasn't wrong or stupid. What I'm saying is that it doesn't seem like it comes from a place of misogyny so much as poor self image, and even if it does it doesn't make me hate him because he's still an interesting and well developed character. The morality of the actions of characters isn't a factor in wether or not I like them.

The morality of the actions of characters isn't a factor in whether or not I like them, either. What matters to me is how those actions are meant to be perceived. Like you, I found Riley's story to be interesting. What I didn't like was that it seemed like the show kept intending for me to like him, sympathize with him, and maybe even come down on his side toward the end. THAT I could not do. I mean, Spike's done FAR worse things than Riley, but the show always acknowledged and made clear how f***ed up they were, so I was able to enjoy him. Xander's speech about how Riley was just so darn special and "the one you don't let get away" was just the nail in the coffin of my opinion on the character. It was SOOO far off-base to me, as he was NOT good for Buffy, and she was not good for him, imo.

 

[The Question]

I should preface this by saying I grew up in a military family: My father is a retired Army Colonel and West Point grad, like my grandfather before him, and I'm very proud of both of them...but: misogynistic thinking and military thinking often go hand in hand. And that's not throwing an insult at the military - the same goes for almost ALL antiquated, pre-feminism schools of tradition. Just because military training is the root of condescending and patronizing behavior Buffy was subjected to by the Initiative (and in some cases, Riley) in S4 doesn't make it any less misogynistic.

I think it does make it less misogynistic if her being a woman isn't a factor as to why they treat her the way they do. If they're being condescending and patronizing because they're the military and she's a civilian and that's the order of things as far as they're concerned, then it's not misogynistic.

For the record, when I use the term "misogynistic," I want you to know I don't mean it in its most overt sense of meaning: I'm not suggesting Riley has any kind of underlying hatred of women at all. I'm using it in the looser sense of Feminist Theory - that he has preconceived notions of what a woman should be to a man, which is spurring negative behavior on his part when they don't conform to it.

And I don't see that. At no point did he seem to want Buffy to change the way she lived her life. His problems were with his underperformance. His only issue with Buffy's behavior is that he felt she didn't really care about him, and I think that's a hit different.

Giles' days as a dangerously rebellious teenager are a totally different situation. What happened to adult Giles and what happened to Riley are far more similar, but you're right - age and wisdom separate them. But their attitudes toward Buffy and her power ALSO separate them. I mean, look at Giles - he's her father figure. If anyone should feel like an alpha male toward her and feel emasculated when he loses his position as her Watcher, it should be him. But he has never had any problem letting her take charge and make her own mistakes. The only time he did was with her dealings with Spike in S7, and she rightfully responded by shutting the door (literally and metaphorically) in Giles' face.

Again, I fail to see Riley wanting to be more powerful than Buffy. I see Riley wanting to be less weak because he feels like he's not useful to anyone. He didn't hate that Buffy was strong, he hated that he wasn't good enough by his own standards. I think there's a big difference between those things, and I think his actions demonstrate the later and not the former.

The morality of the actions of characters isn't a factor in whether or not I like them, either. What matters to me is how those actions are meant to be perceived. Like you, I found Riley's story to be interesting. What I didn't like was that it seemed like the show kept intending for me to like him, sympathize with him, and maybe even come down on his side toward the end. THAT I could not do. I mean, Spike's done FAR worse things than Riley, but the show always acknowledged and made clear how f***ed up they were, so I was able to enjoy him. Xander's speech about how Riley was just so darn special and "the one you don't let get away" was just the nail in the coffin of my opinion on the character. It was SOOO far off-base to me, as he was NOT good for Buffy, and she was not good for him, imo.

He and Buffy weren't good for each other. But I think the show was pretty clear about spelling that out. In the case of coming down on a side, I don't think there are supposed to be sides to come down on. It's the case of a relationship that fell apart because people drifted apart, had their own baggage, and in Riley's case made dumb decisions. I think the whole point of it is that it's the kind of thing that just happened.

Xander's speech didn't bother me because it made sense in context. Yeah, we can see their relationship won't work. But we're the audience. We have hindsight. Xander, like everyone else is in the thick of it. He was telling his friend "if you think this can work, if you want it to work, then make it work." That's something that makes perfect sense for someone to say in context. Unfortunately, from out perspective, we know it can't work.

 

[flickchick85]

I think it does make it less misogynistic if her being a woman isn't a factor as to why they treat her the way they do. If they're being condescending and patronizing because they're the military and she's a civilian and that's the order of things as far as they're concerned, then it's not misogynistic.

You're kidding yourself if you think her being a woman had nothing to do with it. Especially considering the premise of the entire series. They were expecting her to be the hapless blonde as usual, who's supposed to be wowed by their facilities, weapons and expertise. Classic institutional patriarchy, which of course Buffy subverted because that's what she does.

And I don't see that. At no point did he seem to want Buffy to change the way she lived her life. His problems were with his underperformance. His only issue with Buffy's behavior is that he felt she didn't really care about him, and I think that's a hit different.

He was absolutely trying to change her behavior. He pretty much spelled it out in Into the Woods when he was describing all of things she did "wrong" that led to him going to the vampire ****es. The reason he thought she didn't care (which she obviously did, btw), is because she wasn't behaving the way he thought a caring girlfriend SHOULD behave. The ultimatum was his last ditch effort to get her to make a change and "prove" her feelings.

Again, I fail to see Riley wanting to be more powerful than Buffy. I see Riley wanting to be less weak because he feels like he's not useful to anyone. He didn't hate that Buffy was strong, he hated that he wasn't good enough by his own standards. I think there's a big difference between those things, and I think his actions demonstrate the later and not the former.

Again, that's because of the ideal in his head that he sees for himself and Buffy and the way they are supposed to be. Him not feeling "useful" is total BS since he already had far more skills than Xander, who seems pretty comfortable with his own level of "usefulness." Riley's hang-up is about being comfortable with not being an alpha, and he just couldn't do it.

He and Buffy weren't good for each other. But I think the show was pretty clear about spelling that out. In the case of coming down on a side, I don't think there are supposed to be sides to come down on. It's the case of a relationship that fell apart because people drifted apart, had their own baggage, and in Riley's case made dumb decisions. I think the whole point of it is that it's the kind of thing that just happened.

Xander's speech didn't bother me because it made sense in context. Yeah, we can see their relationship won't work. But we're the audience. We have hindsight. Xander, like everyone else is in the thick of it. He was telling his friend "if you think this can work, if you want it to work, then make it work." That's something that makes perfect sense for someone to say in context. Unfortunately, from out perspective, we know it can't work.

Except Xander's always been "the one who sees things for what they are," aka, the audience. Not the guy in the thick of it. The one with the supposedly objective viewpoint. We were supposed to be agreeing with him in that scene. I didn't. Not by a long shot.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I'm having a random Buffy marathon. Haven't sat down and watched it through for a while, and i'm really enjoying it.

It's just one of those shows that literally never gets boring to me. Not a single episode is a chore.

I just got to the beginning of season 2, watching When she was bad (which is one of my favourite episodes). I think season 1 has so many incredible moments that get forgotten about when you look at the 'best' of the season as a whole.

Plus I forgot how awesome Cordelia was early on. I loved that bit in the finale where she just drives through the school smashing in the doors and walls to get to the library

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Except Xander's always been "the one who sees things for what they are," aka, the audience. Not the guy in the thick of it. The one with the supposedly objective viewpoint. We were supposed to be agreeing with him in that scene. I didn't. Not by a long shot.

I totally agreed with him. I freaking love that episode and that speech, and it was actually one of the things that sold me on Riley. I didn't enjoy his character much the first time round, but over the years i've grown genuinely fond of him

I think the moment I truly sympathised with the character was when he said to Xander that he knows Buffy doesn't love him.

And no, she didn't really love him. But that isn't because he wasn't 'the one' or anything that simple. It was exactly what Xander said. She'd been burned so often she shut down emotionally. She doesn't know how to throw herself into a normal happy relationship because her life just isn't happy and normal.

I mean, things with Riley were at their best when it was all tied up with the initiative, and there was the danger and excitement and general mess that Buffy's used too. That's the kind of relationship she's used too. Passionate and painful.

And when the initiative was gone, and Riley just became the normal guy, I don't think either of them really talked about how that changed their relationship.

But I think what Xander made her realise with that speech, is that she COULD be happy with a normal relationship if she tried. If she made that effort to open up. If she just let something good and honest and normal happen for herself. Just be in love and support each other and not have it be doomed or messy or confusing.

No, it wasn't meant to be. That's why she never made it there in time. But Xander's advice as a friend was fantastic.

 

[flickchick85]

I totally agreed with him. I freaking love that episode and that speech, and it was actually one of the things that sold me on Riley. I didn't enjoy his character much the first time round, but over the years i've grown genuinely fond of him

It's exactly the opposite for me. I didn't mind him the first time watching, but lately on this re-watch I did for Avengers, knowing where their relationship goes, I found myself seeing his behavior in a whole new less flattering light, even in S4.

All that which you described is who Buffy IS. She's formed by what she's been through, and that's who she was when she met Riley. Like she said, "that's all I have to give. That's the whole package." Apparently that was never enough for him, which he knew far in advance (hence him telling Xander early on), yet he still stayed with her and just let it all boil under the surface. Then instead of ever talking to her about it, he acts out/betrays her with vampire ****es, and decides to wait 'till the last minute when he was about to leave, drop it all on her, deliver an ultimatum, and leave her feeling like it was all her fault. That's a *****e exit if ever I've seen one, so again I say, good riddance, and Xander can ****.

S5 is my favorite season, but I'll never be able to love that episode.

EDIT: As I've said, others online have been able to articulate why I don't like Riley better than I have here. For example, this excerpt is from an essay that labeled Riley as the "Beige Demon" of BTVS:

Buffy is consistently called upon to do more than she can imagine possible, without running away or leaving anyone behind. But she does it while reminding you that she’s not prepared, that she doesn’t know she’ll win, but that she’s going to try anyway. The Initiative is completely different. They stack the odds in their favor, they have strength in numbers, none of them have to make any harder choices than anyone else because they work as a unit. In a thousand different ways Buffy’s world is more difficult than theirs, where even her weakest ally has to withstand everything hell provides and trust that their protector is coming for them. Zapping humanoids with electricity, capping the vampires’ teeth with behavior modification chips, keeping the knockout gun at hand — all of these things doom them because they forget something Buffy is NEVER allowed to forget, that sometimes it’s just you and someone you love and the worse thing you’ve ever faced and if you aren’t prepared for that you aren’t prepared for the sanitized version. Because if you get comfortable you won’t survive it.

The thing that I cannot stand about Riley is that he doesn’t understand his place in the Slayer’s life, and refuses to accept that he’s not the center of it. The story has to be about Riley Finn’s triumph, guest-starring Buffy Summers as the one who does the wetwork...Riley could have looked at the situation and said “You know what? I’m going to sit down and be The Book Guy, the guy who reads about demons for my girlfriend so she’s got all the information she needs.” Or “Hey, it sucks my power was unsustainable, but I’m going to learn how to craft badass weapons, yeah! I’ll be The Weapons Guy” or even “Nobody ever vanquished the forces of evil with muscles spasms, I’m going to make sure my favorite lady stays hydrated. Just call me The Electrolytes Guy!” But no. He decided his most valuable contribution to the Scoobies was to resent Buffy for his shortcomings and insecurities, consort with the undead, and then try to make her feel bad about herself instead of owning up to what he had done.

The loss of his unnaturally inflated power isn’t a tragedy, any more that it is a tragedy that her lieutenant, Willow, isn’t as physically strong as she is. He wants the power Buffy possesses without having paid the price for it, without considering the massive responsibility it entails. He wants the wide swath Willow cuts through people who hurt those she loves without the terrible things she must do and take into herself to earn them. He wants to show up and say “Hey. I’m a dude, my jaw’s pretty square, let’s save the world.” Every other character has dealt with the fact that they are not Buffy; he never does.

And one of the comments on that essay:

The most frustrating thing about Riley’s story is how he exits: after betraying Buffy’s trust and cheating on her by willingly getting fed on by vampires, he runs off to join some government sponsored monster hunt in some country overseas, where he can be “useful” (read: where he can play the hero) and says that if Buffy wants to save the relationship, she’ll talk him out of it. Ya know, as if it wasn’t him that shot everything to hell by refusing to talk about his problems until he went and did something stupid. Suddenly it’s her job to save the relationship he’s sabotaging. Even in his romantic relationship he wanted to fix it without putting in any personal sacrifice or doing any work, running when it stopped being easy.

You know, as detestable as Xander is a lot of the time, he got over not being the designated hero or the most powerful member. He comfortably moved into the supportive role, the guy who researches, buys food, brings supplies and is in the background. Why he and the others didn’t consider it a massive insult to their usefulness that Riley was leaving because he couldn’t stomach being like them is a mystery to me.

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2012/05/22/buffy-vs-the-beige-demon-good-riddance-to-riley-finn/


Or again, many of the comments over at MarkWatches go even further in-depth on the matter. I can see how people can still like Riley - I mean, like I said, I was fine with him myself the first time I watched. His worst crime to me was being a little boring. But I'm not making up motivations here for the character, either. Certain things are obviously up for interpretation, but these particular shortcomings are definitely a valid interpretation of what's presented to us in the text. And they're enough to make me thoroughly dislike the character, especially when the writers essentially shout at the audience how great he is.