Infinity War Captain America|Steve Rogers - Chris Evans

[AlluAllu]

What I am arguing is that both sides did what they should do as human beings. I think that everyone should strive towards what they think is right, even if everyone else disagrees. If they do that, they have imo ethically done their duty.

But instead of ethics I would assess the strategy. In this I would agree that "no, you move" isn't always the best approach. Because in the case of Civil War, that led people trying to arrest Cap, which hindered his ability to do what he believes in. Perhaps he should have tried a different strategy.

What I have been saying is that people shouldn't try do what majority thinks is right. Instead, people should figure out what's the best way they can achieve their goals.

 

[Steamteck]

To be fair, Steve agreed to sign before he found out about Wanda. So, no, he didn't take Peggy's "No, you move" too close to heart.

Wanda was treated so incredibly unfairly in CW. No one on the other side seemed to have the slightess clue what really happened and treated her like a bomb that could go off at any second. Even the Vision didn't seem to get what actually happened.

 

[InternetPeople]

Right or wrong, people want to feel safe, truth be damned. If folks perceive Wanda as a threat then she will be treated as such. I think Vision chose the lesser of two evils when making his decision. Sometimes there is no good answer.

 

[Capsfan]

I love Wanda, yes, it wasn't really her fault in Lagos, but it's evident she can't fully control her powers. She wasn't put under any kind of arrest after unleashing Hulk on the living town. And in CW it was only a temporal measure until the dealing with the Accords. It's much better treatment than the Raft or being a wanted criminal indefinitely. And in fact, Cap refusing to sign had only made it worse for Wanda too. What is his logic? That it's better to make her a criminal instead of the house arrest for a few weeks? I don't get it.

 

[Jaylee]

Too many people on this thread are confusing 'feeling safe' in our real world political sphere versus what is actually present in the MCU-world political sphere, which, I gotta tell you, the MCU-world is one messed up place to live. In the MCU-world political sphere you'd almost HAVE to take Steve's stance to survive because that place is one district short of the Hunger Games.

Iron Man 1 - weapons of mass destruction being sold and bought in the black market.
Incredible Hulk - Ross was running a GOVERNMENT FUNDED human experimentation program. (side note: Ross was responsible for a whole lot of collateral damage in both Brazil and Harlem in that movie, which made his speech to the Avengers in Civil War remarkably hypocritical).
Iron Man 2 - the US government wants the Iron Man suit for their own purposes.
Captain America First Avenger - Steve 'dies' with the tesseract, which not only has the reality gem buried within it but that humanity knows nothing about but feels entitled to use anyway, it is uncovered and, fast forward to Avengers, used by SHIELD to make advanced weaponry, which, according to Thor, let's the universe know that Earth 'is ready for a higher form of war'. Red Skull starts the evil, international Hydra organization, which does not die with either him or Steve and, in fact, continues to grow and prosper.
Avengers - this "World Security Council", whatever that is, decides the best way to handle invading aliens is to drop a NUCLEAR WEAPON on New York, population 8.4 million.
Iron Man 3 - the Vice President hatched a plot to kill the President. Extremist, an experimental procedure, was being tested on soldiers. 'Big pharma' had their hands all over the highest government office of the United States and were, actually, controlling things.
Captain America Winter Soldier - Not only did we find out SHIELD had been infiltrated and run by Hydra since its inception, but we also found out that there were US senators who were Hydra AND that Pierce, Mr. Hydra himself, was once a world secretary to the aforementioned World Security Council and had been offered a Nobel Peace Prize at one point in his career. Zola also hinted that Hydra had been behind many wars and 'changing history', which indicates Hydra's influence was not contained to the United States.
Civil War - someone thought it was a good idea to promote "I-created-Abomination" Ross to Secretary of State. And since that position is filled at the discretion of the President I'm going to assume that President Ellis, in the MCU, is as screwed up as his Vice President and Senators were. Not only that but the Raft was fully built, and fully functional, which meant its construction had to have happened before the Accords were a gleam in anyone's eye... just things that make you hmmmm.

And this isn't even covering what's going on in the Netflix shows or Agents of SHIELD, which is even more horrifying. In Jessica Jones another 'Big Pharma' organization is experimenting on humans, which results in Killgrave, Jessica, herself, and Nuke. In Luke Cage arms dealers where using Chitauri debris to make horrifying weaponry, specifically targeting supes, who are now, thanks to the accords, not allowed to defend themselves. And in Agents of SHIELD Inhumans are required to register which puts a huge massive target on their backs as they are actively being hunted.

So yeah, honestly, I think Steve's stance was entirely warranted considering all of the above. You stand by your river of truth, Steve, I've got your back there, buddy.

 

[Panacea]

People taking Steve's stance is the main reason the MCU world is as screwed as it is.

 

[Jaylee]

Or, to the more rational among us, we realize the MCU-world is screwed up because:

Everybody wants to rule the world... Including Norse gods, one of whom was supplied with a mind stone embedded within a scepter given to said Norse God by Thanos, himself. And this is just referring to Loki. But earth's relationship with alien interference goes back even further than the Chitauri invasion. Remember that 'past' scene at the beginning of Thor 1? Had the Asgardians not interfered with Earth, then, all humans in the MCU-world would be subservient to Frost Giants. Yay. So you have your good interference and your bad interference, but that interference was going to happen regardless, it was damn near inevitable, because...

Three infinity stones have been found on Earth (reality, space and time) , one other has made it's way there (mind). MCU humans were pretty much doomed from the get-go. But more than just alien interference, infinity gems being found on earth is bad because... humanity itself doesn't know how to leave well enough alone when they find something they don't understand.

Erskine created a bad egg before he created a good one. And once that bad egg was created, he almost HAD to create a good egg to counteract the bad egg because someone had to be strong enough to take on Red Skull. The bad egg was he was forced to create for one government, the good egg he volunteered to create for another, but oh that pesky government interference that made it all necessary to begin with.

Human experimentation is rampart even without the stones: Ross was doing it, which resulted in Hulk and Abomination (this was government funded), IGH is doing it which resulted in Killgrave, Jessica Jones, and Nuke (also government supported as Nuke was a soldier and it was heavily implied that they experimented on his entire unit). Killian was doing it with Extremist (also government supported, also tested on soldiers). And the group that made Luke Cage what he is was/is also doing it (once again government supported).

So I repeat, in the MCU-world Steve's stance is a necessity.

 

[Capsfan]

^ I'm team Cap, but your arguments speak more in the favor of Tony's stance actually.

If Steve is afraid of EVERYONE abusing their power, then by that logic he should become the one and only ruler of the Earth. Because Avengers are not the most powerful weapon in the world. Nuclear weapon, for example, is much more powerful.

 

[Jaylee]

Nuclear weapons only tickle Hulk and his nemesis in the comics, Red Hulk (which is actually Ross btw) gets STRONGER off of nuclear energy, just saying. There are some superheroes and aliens (we've met the Kree and the Titans, well, at least one Titan) who would laugh at a bomb thrown their way. Pretty sure Adam Warlock could probably withstand one, too.

And my arguments are not in favor of Tony's stance. No way. The World Security council's decision in Avengers was not to deploy the Avengers... no, they decided the best way to handle an alien invasion was to nuke New York city. They also had the Hydra head running SHIELD and nominated him for a Nobel Peace Prize.

And let's say the Accords council they set up to deploy the Avengers is run like the real-life UN Security Council is run. In the UN Security council there are 15 seats, 10 are rotated by member countries, five seats are permanent: The United States, The United Kingdom, France, Russia and China. And these five countries have absolute veto power.

Let's look at how the US handled the Hulk situation, shall we. Their method of trying to capture Hulk was to first take out an entire Brazilian town and then, when that didn't work, to create Abomination who then took out half of Harlem. So really, I can see why Steve might be a tad bit gun-shy here and not trust oversight. Not only that but Red Skull, who in the MCU created Hydra, was a commission for Germany. And do I need to bring up what the Russians were doing with the Red Room?

My point is that the whole reason Steve was necessary, the entire reason Hulk came into existence, the entire reason Hydra was created, was because of government intervention. SHIELD was run by a world security council and that council a) dropped a nuke on New York City and b) was experimenting with the tesseract, which housed an infinity stone, which signaled to the realms that Earth was ready for a higher form of war and c) had Hydra right under their nose.

But let's take this one step further, what if Steve had signed, what if all the Avengers had signed, they are now controlled by the UN. Ross is still experimenting, and now he has access to Steve Rogers' medical examinations and maybe even blood samples. What do you think Ross would do with Erskine's super soldier formula? What if aliens invade again and they decide not to deploy the Avengers, just like they didn't the first time. What if those aliens are working for Thanos, just like the first set were. No nuke is going to stop Thanos, sorry to inform you. Even without the gauntlet that dude is POWERFUL. What if Hydra, whom we know from Zola's speech in Winter Soldier, has people inserted within the UN? They are an international terrorist group AND Zola did say "For 70 years, HYDRA has been secretly feeding crises, reaping war. And when history did not cooperate, history was changed." Don't think that was contained to just the US government, btw.

The MCU world is pretty much a dystopia and Cap has no reason to trust anybody, especially given the history there.

Cap isn't interested in power, or ruling, btw. In the comics (616) they wanted him to run for president. He refused. He hates politics.

 

[Bren]

Incredible Hulk - Ross was running a GOVERNMENT FUNDED human experimentation program. (side note: Ross was responsible for a whole lot of collateral damage in both Brazil and Harlem in that movie, which made his speech to the Avengers in Civil War remarkably hypocritical).

But... but by CW he'd gained perspective!!!

 

[Panacea]

The MCU world is the way it is because people have power that can't be matched and use it to shape the world as they see fit, they impose their own morality on the world instead of submitting to the wider will of the people, just like Steve does. His approach to ethics and authority has always been infantile and absolutist, just like Tony's had been, which resulted in Ultron. Secret human experimentation is not open or democratic, it's people doing what they think is right simply because they think it's right, which puts it in Steve's camp, if anything.

Also, the Aether was not found on Earth.

 

[Jaylee]

Not originally, but Jane Foster sure found it there. And if she hadn't, someone else would have. And maybe that 'someone' would have been someone not of this earth who had come looking for the damn thing, which was my original point. The stones on earth, no matter how they get there, attract aliens, whether the MCU-humans like it or not.

And your argument would be sound if the 'will of the people' was respected by their governments... it's not. At least not in the samples we've seen. US military funded the experiment that led to Hulk. How do we know this? Ross was reporting to General Joe Greller about the Hulk situation. At no point there was Bruce's agency as a person and a thinking, feeling individual respected, was he not a people? What about Natasha, they recruited her AS A CHILD. And when it was clear she didn't want to be sterilized, they did it to her anyway. Red Skull was a commission of his government, he then went on to create Hydra. The US government, specifically, at its highest power, is corrupt as the day is long. The Vice President was working with Killian, who had invented Extremist, to kill the President. The President appointed Ross to Secretary of State, Ross has a history of collateral damage and human experimentation. There were senators that were Hydra (Gary Shandlings character for example). Do you think they would have been elected if 'the people' knew about all of this? Do you think the will of the Hydra senators, or a Vice President in Killian's pocket, or a President who appoints a megalomaniac to Secretary of State is the 'will of the people'?

In an ideal world, sure, oversight, good idea, the will of the people being observed is a beautiful thought. But in the MCU world... who is going to protect 'the people' from their own twisted governments? I'll say it again. Dystopia. Look it up.

 

[jr24tw]

I don't think the Avengers in the hands of any government or organization is a good idea. They would just be used as power has been used by those in charge in the MCU. And if they refuse they either get retired or arrested so they can't get in the way of any agenda, as the Accords prove. However, the Avengers are also a private organization without oversight doing whatever they want without facing any consequences much like the bad organizations we have seen so far. And just like all the other powers, the Avengers are also still people who have their own agenda. CW is all about Steve following his own agenda with massive carnage as a result.

I'm more Team Tony in terms of oversight and consequences. AoU showed how much damage just one Avenger can do. Wanda using her powers on Hulk and tearing apart South Africa as a result. Tony with Ultron, helped along again by Wanda screwing with his mind. If there are no consequences for such damage what makes the Avengers any better than the villains? The Avengers just operate on their own agenda, go wherever they want, leave carnage in their wake and go home. Maybe if we are lucky they feel bad about it for 5 minutes (like Wanda) to show us they are different from the villains.

I wish they had done a better job setting up the conflict in CW because the whole UN/Accords/Ross thing makes little sense.

 

[Jaylee]

In comics the Avengers are like a non-state actor (think Greenpeace, Red Cross, Amnesty International). They would have a contract with the UN, and the UN can negotiate the terms of the contract, but they are run, funded and deployed at their own discretion (in the old days Steve and Tony ran them and Tony funded them but now... I think Peter Parker is funding the Avengers currently in the comics? I'm not reading the current Avengers run, or any current Marvel run (I'm still reading older ones), in protest over Hydra-Cap.)

 

[jr24tw]

In comics the Avengers are like a non-state actor (think Greenpeace, Red Cross, Amnesty International). They would have a contract with the UN, and the UN can negotiate the terms of the contract, but they are run, funded and deployed at their own discretion (in the old days Steve and Tony ran them and Tony funded them but now... I think Peter Parker is funding the Avengers currently in the comics? I'm not reading the current Avengers run, or any Marvel run, in protest over Hydra-Cap.)

Which would make sense and would have been better. The set up in CW just doesn't work. Ross having the position that he does despite his past makes little sense. How the Accords were done makes even less sense. Basically the whole world has been working on them since AoU and no one bothered to let the Avengers know? That's not how it works, even in the MCU. The UN and Avengers should have been working on them together so that both sides have a say because it involves 2 sides. The way it was done in CW was basically the Avengers being conscripted into service and if they didn't sign up they retire. And if they ever decided to come out of retirement to help someone (or the planet) or violated any of the Accord regulations they would be arrested and locked away. That whole premise just doesn't work for me.

 

[Jaylee]

Which would make sense and would have been better. The set up in CW just doesn't work. Ross having the position that he does despite his past makes little sense. How the Accords were done makes even less sense. Basically the whole world has been working on them since AoU and no one bothered to let the Avengers know? That's not how it works, even in the MCU. The UN and Avengers should have been working on them together so that both sides have a say because it involves 2 sides. The way it was done in CW was basically the Avengers being conscripted into service and if they didn't sign up they retire. And if they ever decided to come out of retirement to help someone (or the planet) or violated any of the Accord regulations they would be arrested and locked away. That whole premise just doesn't work for me.

Agreed.

 

[Panacea]

Not originally, but Jane Foster sure found it there. [...]

No she never. She went through a portal and found it there. She probably wasn't even in the Nine Realms, hence why Heimdall couldn't see her.

And your argument would be sound if the 'will of the people' was respected by their governments... it's not. [...]

In which case it's the people's prerogative to keep their governments honest when they enter the voting booth, not some random vigilante who thinks that his subjective morality trumps everyone else's. Besides, the government acting beyond it's democratic remit puts them in Cap's ideological camp, which lest you forget was the original point of contention.

 

[Jaylee]

In which case it's the people's prerogative to keep their governments honest when they enter the voting booth, not some random vigilante who thinks that his subjective morality trumps everyone else's. Besides, the government acting beyond it's democratic remit puts them in Cap's ideological camp, which lest you forget was the original point of contention.

I had to step away for a minute when I read this response... to laugh at the absolute naïveté of it. Unbelievable. You have to be a troll, I'm convinced of it, but okay, I'll bite. Not all governments are a democracy with voting booths, darling. I know you live in this ideal world where all governments are honest and good and you'd like to give the world a coke, grab everyone by the hand and sing Kumbaya, but believe it or not sometimes governments aren't elected. And sometimes they are, but a thing called the electoral college exists that supersedes the popular vote. And some offices aren't voted in, even in a democracy, like say the position of Secretary of State, which is appointed. And sometimes, even in a democracy, candidates lie to get elected and don't disclose that they're true affiliation is not to 'the people' but rather to a Nazi organization founded by Red Skull.

So once more, since you seem to have trouble grasping this... The MCU-world is a dystopia. The governments we've seen are not good. They experiment on their constituents, they create Red Rooms and Winter Soldier programs. They drop bombs on heavily populated cities. They're infiltrated, in remarkably high positions, by the aforementioned Nazi organizations. And said Nazi organization is reported to have 'created wars and changed history'. They think the answer to combating the Hulk is to create something worse. They created the Hulk to begin with. They also created Red Skull. They make Inhumans register then turn a blind eye when said registered people are brutally slaughtered. So as cute as it is that you - despite what is it 12 movies and several TV shows now? - think the MCU world is lollipops and rainbows that can be saved with a vote, despite ALL evidence to the contrary, the truth of the matter is that it's a hell-hole. And when a system is corrupt? You sure as hell don't give them control over you and access to your serum enhanced hair follicles. What you do is rebel. Particularly if you have knowledge of said corruption. At that point rebellion becomes a responsibility.

Now go troll somewhere else, I'm on to you.

BTW: portal was on earth, whose entrance she found while juanting around earth, who then spit her back out on earth. And it doesn't matter anyway. My point still stands, ANY stone on earth is going to attract those seeking power. Thanos in particular. He needs all six to complete the gauntlet. And even if we discount the Reality gem, Space and Time were still present here. So I'll say it again, alien intervention on earth in the MCU was inevitable and no abject denial and nit-picking schematics on your part can change that.

 

[Panacea]

I had to step away for a minute when I read this response... to laugh at the absolute naïveté of it. Unbelievable. You have to be a troll, I'm convinced of it, but okay, I'll bite. Not all governments are a democracy with voting booths, darling. I know you live in this ideal world where all governments are honest and good and you'd like to give the world a coke, grab everyone by the hand and sing Kumbaya, but believe it or not sometimes governments aren't elected. And sometimes they are, but a thing called the electoral college exists that supersedes the popular vote. And some offices aren't voted in, even in a democracy, like say the position of Secretary of State, which is appointed. And sometimes, even in a democracy, candidates lie to get elected and don't disclose that they're true affiliation is not to 'the people' but rather to a Nazi organization founded by Red Skull.

I can only assume you have some sort of reading comprehension issues, or else you misread in this bizarre belligerent fluster you've found yourself in, because you're responding to post in which I not only acknowledge the obvious fact that governments are corrupt, but cite the way that civilized societies deal with said corruption.

So once more, since you seem to have trouble grasping this... The MCU-world is a dystopia. The governments we've seen are not good. They experiment on their constituents, they create Red Rooms and Winter Soldier programs. They drop bombs on heavily populated cities. They're infiltrated, in remarkably high positions, by the aforementioned Nazi organizations. And said Nazi organization is reported to have 'created wars and changed history'. They think the answer to combating the Hulk is to create something worse. They created the Hulk to begin with. They also created Red Skull. They make Inhumans register then turn a blind eye when said registered people are brutally slaughtered. So as cute as it is that you - despite what is it 12 movies and several TV shows now? - think the MCU world is lollipops and rainbows that can be saved with a vote, despite ALL evidence to the contrary, the truth of the matter is that it's a hell-hole. And when a system is corrupt? You sure as hell don't give them control over you and access to your serum enhanced hair follicles. What you do is rebel. Particularly if you have knowledge of said corruption. At that point rebellion becomes a responsibility.

This is again confusion on your part or else just a crude straw man argument. I haven't said anything to suggest that I think the MCU world is sunshine and rainbows, quite the contrary, if anything. That said, dystopian future is a comical overstatement. Aside from some of the Hydra stuff done to justify some of Cap's lawlessness, the world inside the MCU is analogous to our own except with greater threats. Bombing civilian cities, voluntary super solider programs, kidnap and torture, these are all things that modern democracies have done. The Sokovia Accords are exactly the sort of thing that would happen in real life. The notion that vigilantes would or should be allowed to operate with zero accountability is infantile beyond belief. Cap's actions in Civil War achieved nothing beyond splitting up the Avengers are turning half of them into criminals and fugitives.

Now go troll somewhere else, I'm on to you.

So because someone holds a different point of view they must be a troll? Behave, lest you embarrass yourself further.

BTW: portal was on earth, whose entrance she found while juanting around earth, who then spit her back out on earth.

I'm glad we agree that she didn't find the Aether on Earth.

 

[Vartha]

CAREFUL guys, we don't need to flame each other either.

 

[Vartha]

People taking Steve's stance is the main reason the MCU world is as screwed as it is.

How's making your own choice screwed up?
In CW he was saying you should have a choice as to where and when you fight a battle. The Accords would have made it so they couldn't choose a battle if there were more than one. Say something the UN wanted them to go do but at the same time they're needed MORE elsewhere at the same time. They would be in jail for ignoring the UN's choice and innocents would be in danger not to mention their freedom of choice.

 

[Jaylee]

I can only assume you have some sort of reading comprehension issues, or else you misread in this bizarre belligerent fluster you've found yourself in, because you're responding to post in which I not only acknowledge the obvious fact that governments are corrupt, but cite the way that civilized societies deal with said corruption.

You know how I know you're full of crap? You delve into ad hominem instead of owning what you put. You stated that a country can get rid of a bad government by simply voting them away, I called you on it by pointing out to how a vote can be circumvented and/or ignored. We've seen real-life examples at how a popular vote was ignored in favor of an antiquated system very recently, so honestly your 'civilized countries' soapbox is not only idealistic at this point, it's insulting to the majority of a population within a country that tried to circumvent a bad government by doing just as you suggested, voting, but lost anyway. Bad governments can happen to good people and when they do, you are not obligated to accept their racist/sexist/xenophobic ideals as typical or acceptable.

This is again confusion on your part or else just a crude straw man argument. I haven't said anything to suggest that I think the MCU world is sunshine and rainbows, quite the contrary, if anything. That said, dystopian future is a comical overstatement. Aside from some of the Hydra stuff done to justify some of Cap's lawlessness, the world inside the MCU is analogous to our own except with greater threats. Bombing civilian cities, voluntary super solider programs, kidnap and torture, these are all things that modern democracies have done. The Sokovia Accords are exactly the sort of thing that would happen in real life. The notion that vigilantes would or should be allowed to operate with zero accountability is infantile beyond belief. Cap's actions in Civil War achieved nothing beyond splitting up the Avengers are turning half of them into criminals and fugitives.

Senators were proven and revealed as Hydra. The Vice President plotted to kill the President over Extremist, which was being tested on soldiers. A General who was directly responsible for a Brazilian town being torn to shreds as well as half of Harlem was appointed to Secretary of State by said President. This same General is responsible for the creation of Hulk and Abomination. An entire segment of the population was forced to register, which might as well have been forcing them to sign their death warrant because death is exactly what happened to a large portion of them. A nuclear bomb was dropped on New York, which has a population of over 8 million people. If anything that extreme happened in real life that government would be considered dystopian. The fact that you think all of that is perfectly acceptable, just business as usual, says more about you than it does about Cap.

So because someone holds a different point of view they must be a troll? Behave, lest you embarrass yourself further.

I am not embarrassed by anything I've said and I stand by it all.

Having a different opinion? No. But when that opinion is as deliberately obtuse as yours was stated by including things like "oh a country can just vote a problem away, no big" when we have so many examples of how its way more complicated than that (especially considering that a ton of countries that exist today do so because they overthrew an unwanted government through rebellion) that is trolling. And a quick search of your posts here show that I'm not the only one who thinks this of you. You seem to have quite the history of trolling this site and pestering people.

We are obviously never going to agree. Ever. What you deem acceptable behavior from a government for the people and what I deem acceptable behavior from a government for the people exists on different spheres. So I'll be blunt, what the governments in the MCU have done is completely unacceptable to me and therefore you couldn't pry me from Team Cap's side with a crowbar, and absolutely nothing you've stated has changed my mind on that. You haven't been at all persuasive.

 

[Capsfan]

How's making your own choice screwed up?
In CW he was saying you should have a choice as to where and when you fight a battle. The Accords would have made it so they couldn't choose a battle if there were more than one. Say something the UN wanted them to go do but at the same time they're needed MORE elsewhere at the same time. They would be in jail for ignoring the UN's choice and innocents would be in danger not to mention their freedom of choice.

I completely agree on that. But this is exactly the reason they needed to make amends to the Accords as Tony suggested. As Nat said, it's better to have one hand on the wheel and still steer. Refusing to sign changes nothing. You're still unable to help innocent people and you still will be in jail. There is no black and white. Steve had some good points, but Tony too. If Steve can't trust anyone, by this logic he should become the one and only ruler of the world, which he doesn't want to. Otherwise his stance becomes dangerously close to HYDRA's logic.

 

[Panacea]

You know how I know you're full of crap? You delve into ad hominem instead of owning what you put. You stated that a country can get rid of a bad government by simply voting them away, I called you on it by pointing out to how a vote can be circumvented and/or ignored. We've seen real-life examples at how a popular vote was ignored in favor of an antiquated system very recently, so honestly your 'civilized countries' soapbox is not only idealistic at this point, it's insulting to the majority of a population within a country that tried to circumvent a bad government by doing just as you suggested, voting, but lost anyway. Bad governments can happen to good people and when they do, you are not obligated to accept their racist/sexist/xenophobic ideals as typical or acceptable.

The rules that saw Trump elected were the same rules that saw Obama elected. Democracy was not circumvented, there was democratic recourse to change the rules before the election but no one cared then, why? Because they thought their girl would win anyway. The people had the opportunity to vote Hillary in but didn't. It's a simple as that. To say that because democracy is fallible that means that (the MCU and by extension) we live a dystopian existence is an absurd false dichotomy. And how a lawless vigilante could have solved this (assuming there is a problem to begin with) I have no idea.

Senators were proven and revealed as Hydra. The Vice President plotted to kill the President over Extremist, which was being tested on soldiers. A General who was directly responsible for a Brazilian town being torn to shreds as well as half of Harlem was appointed to Secretary of State by said President. This same General is responsible for the creation of Hulk and Abomination. An entire segment of the population was forced to register, which might as well have been forcing them to sign their death warrant because death is exactly what happened to a large portion of them. A nuclear bomb was dropped on New York, which has a population of over 8 million people. If anything that extreme happened in real life that government would be considered dystopian. The fact that you think all of that is perfectly acceptable, just business as usual, says more about you than it does about Cap.

I think you've forgotten the point of contention. You can't use Hyrda to make your argument because Hydra falls into the same camp and Captain America. They are - in part - the people like him to whom I refer. They take their subjective notion of what's right and for the best and justify the use of lawless violence in order to inflict it upon the world. You can't hand carte blanche to people to do what they think is right and only have that apply to the people you agree with. A villain is just a hero of the other side. We see Hydra as the ones in the wrong, but they don't, they're just doing what they think is for the best like Captain America does.

 

[Jaylee]

Captain America - Sam Wilson #20

Also, three words for you: Boston Tea Party. Think about it.