Infinity War Captain America|Steve Rogers - Chris Evans

[harlequinade]

Yesterday at Lobby Hero stage door - Chris with kids is too cute

Video: https://***********/Edgouh/status/986623418027184128

 

[Aximili86]

But the point is at one time Steve didn't kill at all unless he was absolutely backed into a corner. And if he did he felt really bad about it.

So that's different to MCU Cap...how?

WWII-era Cap was pretty much always portrayed as someone who killed. Modern-day Steve has less reason to do it aside from in extreme circumstances, so generally doesn't, but occasionally does if there's no other choice.

That's classic Steve Rogers. The guy's not Batman, he has no "no kill" rule, he just wants to avoid it if at all possible, like any other reasonable human being.

 

[muscaremy]

where's Darius? does this mean ATLANTA is in the MCU

While not the mcu van is moonlighting as domino sooo...

 

[SteveRogers41]

So that's different to MCU Cap...how?

WWII-era Cap was pretty much always portrayed as someone who killed. Modern-day Steve has less reason to do it aside from in extreme circumstances, so generally doesn't, but occasionally does if there's no other choice.

That's classic Steve Rogers. The guy's not Batman, he has no "no kill" rule, he just wants to avoid it if at all possible, like any other reasonable human being.

In the comics they very much had a no kill rule. It was part of the Avengers Charter, which Cap had a hand in creating. Capture, not kill. Don’t believe me, read something that came out prior to 9-11. You’re not going to convince me otherwise on this, so you’re absolutely wasting your time arguing with me about it. I’ve been reading the comics since the 80’s and I know better.

 

[Aximili86]

Ooh, not the 80s.

Cap killed in the 80s. It's just extremely rare, as it should be.

 

[SteveRogers41]

Here we go, found it online, the Avengers Charter bylaws:

Section Four: Punishment of Criminals

A. Avengers shall leave the punishment of perpetrators of criminal activity to the appropriate agencies of the law.

B. The Avengers shall not abridge an accused's right to a fair and speedy trial.

C. The Avengers shall abide by the decisions of the law, and will not take upon themselves any aspect of the punishment process.

D. In the event that conventional imprisonment proves inadequate for a given criminal, the Avengers shall be allowed to hold said criminal in a manner they see fit, provided that a full report of said method of imprisonment is given to the proper law enforcement authorities.

 

[SteveRogers41]

Ooh, not the 80s.

Cap killed in the 80s. It's just extremely rare, as it should be.

Just out of curiosity, how many comics have you read, exactly? I mean you didn’t know about the Charter, so maybe you missed all the times ‘thou shall not kill’ was brought up? Especially by Cap.

 

[Aximili86]

Who said I didn't know about the charter? All I'm saying is Cap has killed despite the charter. Just not often, as he avoids it unless forced.

That's more than a semantics thing, there's a difference between Cap and Batman on this issue.

 

[SteveRogers41]

Who said I didn't know about the charter? All I'm saying is Cap has killed despite the charter. Just not often, as he avoids it unless forced.

That's more than a semantics thing, there's a difference between Cap and Batman on this issue.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Cap served food in Korea.

Spoiler

 

[Aximili86]

And...your obligatory-counters.

https://www.cbr.com/times-captain-america-has-killed/




The latter outlining 15 separate instances it happens.

But yep, keep on believin', chief. Your beloved Cap's a damn dirty killer (going right back to the very first issue). Like, you know, all good soldiers.

 

[SteveRogers41]

And...your obligatory-counters.

https://www.cbr.com/times-captain-america-has-killed/

The latter outlining 15 separate instances it happens.

But yep, keep on believin', chief. Your beloved Cap's a damn dirty killer (going right back to the very first issue). Like, you know, all good soldiers.

The article you just linked totally supports my point.

I never said that Cap has never killed, this is what I said in my original post...

But the point is at one time Steve didn't kill at all unless he was absolutely backed into a corner. And if he did he felt really bad about it. If you read Gruenwald, it's not a stretch to see the more modernized Cap in any form of media as a bit more violent than the one who came before.

And this is an excerpt from that CBR article you just linked:

Roughly a year into his acclaimed run on “Captain America,” writer Mark Gruenwald made a fateful decision that would split “Captain American” fandom into opposing factions. In “Captain America” #322 (art by Paul Neary and John Beatty), Gruenwald revealed that up until an event in the previous issue, Captain America had never taken another person’s life before. Throughout the rest of his run (which lasted nearly a decade), Gruenwald held tight to that belief. Captain America, as written by Mark Gruenwald, not only refused to kill, but also he would judge anyone who did kill unless absolutely necessary.

Which is precisely what I said. Cap, at one time, had a do not kill rule and if you came into Cap comics at that time, then any version of Cap that came after would seem more violent. Mark Gruenwald wrote Cap for TEN YEARS. From 1985 to 1995. That 'do not kill' rule was in place for a very long stretch of time. And for those of us who are my age, i.e. a Generation X-er born in the late 70's, raised in the 80's, Gruenwald was our first introduction to Captain America.

I never, not once, claimed that Cap never killed. I stated that at one point a do not kill rule was in place and then it was not. And fans who came into Cap comics through Gruenwald would think anything that came after more violent. Which is true.

 

[harlequinade]

https://***********/AAA1081/status/986427734476906496

Another take on that cute backstage moment I think that video added 10 years to my life

 

[SteveRogers41]

Deadpool 2 director wants a Captain America and Deadpool team-up...

https://hollywoodbytez.com/david-leitch-wants-deadpool-and-captain-america-team-up/

 

[samsnee]

Anyone else glad we didn’t get John Krasinski for Cap. He just never looked the part to me.

 

[Xeno]

Anyone else glad we didn’t get John Krasinski for Cap. He just never looked the part to me.

OMG, I was so relieved when Chris agreed to play Cap. The hideous specter of Krasinski carrying the shield haunted my nightmares until Marvel made the casting announcement. Krasinski doesn't look anything like Steve Rogers should. Anyone can pack on muscle, but if a person wasn't born with a strong jawline and well-defined chin, nothing can change that.

Beyond looks, I never felt that Krasinski could personify Captain America's strength of will and values. A lot of fans had the same misgivings about Chris, but I sensed that he had the ability to pull it off. Happily, Kevin Feige knew that Chris was the perfect Cap and eventually convinced him to take the role. This is one of a handful of perfect casting decisions in the history of superhero films.

 

[Aximili86]

So, Steve, basically what you're saying is "Cap killed before '85 and after '95".

Yeah, the no-kill thing's pretty much an exception to the rule. We're talking majority here.

The article very clearly lays out a whoe bunch of instances, oldschool, newsschool, and everything in between where the guy does. Let's not cherrypick a single writer here, he's outnumbered by just about everyone else who's ever written the guy.

Also not sure how the guy killing somehow makes him "lesser than" in your view. Soldiers, cops, many other types of people who're out there putting their lives on the line for others, kill. It's only an out-of-character issue if he's doing it when there's obviously a way around it. Which...yeah, I'm betting you'll be struggling for examples of when Steve - MCU Steve or comics Steve alike - has just wasted a guy intentionally and it could be argued he didn't have to.

Steve's not The Punisher. He's also not Batman, there's an in-between where all good sane people inhabit. Those two guys have it completely morally wrong, Steve's got the right idea.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

The style is not the point when you are using terms to describe CHARACTER TRAITS. You described Captain America's 'newfound brutality'. That is not a statement about the filmmaker's style of presentation. It is a statement about character development. Stop moving the goalposts.

Goalposts? You're the one who's been arguing over who and how many people Cap has killed, not me.

Style matter, even to CHARACTER TRAITS.

The fight scenes draw attention to how painful going against Cap is.

If the word "brutal" causes you emotional anguish, I'm sorry.

But the fight scenes draw attention to how painful going against Cap is.

As for 'Cap shoves BW against a wall'-- That's about as weak as weak sauce gets. Cap grabs Natasha by the arm because she has stolen the intelligence that Fury died trying to deliver to Steve. He grabs her and moves her closer to the wall to interrogate her away from prying eyes. He doesn't even remotely try to hurt her, which he easily could.

As opposed to telling her they need to talk.

"I'm not going to ask you again!"

Sure. That's what someone says when they're completely calm.

*does that sound familiar? 'C'mon man' is what Cap says to Buck when he goes out of his way to save the life of the German special ops guy who is attempting to use lethal force against them. 'Brutal' my a$$.

So Cap isn't a kill-crazy sadist. I never said he was.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Also, the whole thing was about how MCU Cap (intentionally or not) began to resemble Ultimate Cap in TWS.

So if shoving a female co-worker against a wall is fine, what did UltCap do that makes him a bully?

 

[parkerpete]

If the word "brutal" causes you emotional anguish, I'm sorry.

The only thing that anguishes me is trying to debate with people who clearly don’t know what words mean. And who refuse to argue any of the very specific points I brought up.

You’re very clearly attached to your own personal definitions of words. Have a ball with that, I’m through running on your hamster wheel.

 

[Aximili86]

Bwaha.

 

[SteveRogers41]

So, Steve, basically what you're saying is "Cap killed before '85 and after '95".

Yeah, the no-kill thing's pretty much an exception to the rule. We're talking majority here.

The article very clearly lays out a whoe bunch of instances, oldschool, newsschool, and everything in between where the guy does. Let's not cherrypick a single writer here, he's outnumbered by just about everyone else who's ever written the guy.

Also not sure how the guy killing somehow makes him "lesser than" in your view. Soldiers, cops, many other types of people who're out there putting their lives on the line for others, kill. It's only an out-of-character issue if he's doing it when there's obviously a way around it. Which...yeah, I'm betting you'll be struggling for examples of when Steve - MCU Steve or comics Steve alike - has just wasted a guy intentionally and it could be argued he didn't have to.

Steve's not The Punisher. He's also not Batman, there's an in-between where all good sane people inhabit. Those two guys have it completely morally wrong, Steve's got the right idea.

No, we were not talking majority, quit moving the goalpost. You started jumping all over someone for saying that modern Steve is depicted a bit more brutally than yesteryear and I pointed out that there is justifiable cause for someone to feel that way re:Gruenwald (Gruenwald wasn't the only Cap writer with a no kill clause, btw). Which I've proven. And then you picked a fight with me about it, embarrassing yourself because it's clear you've not read the Gruenwald years, which are kind of essential to any Cap fan.

Gruenwald's, btw, influence is still felt today. He wasn't just 'one Cap writer', he was editor-in-chief of Marvel Comics from 1987-1996, and this while he was writing Cap. He invented Cap!Wolf (something Spencer recently revisited). He invented John Walker/US Agent. He fleshed out the Serpent Society and created most of their more renown members, some of whom have been featured prominently in the Luke Cage Netflix show. He created: Cottonmouth, Crossbones, Americop, Songbird, and Jack Flag, to name a few of his characters through the years. The list of his creations is very, very long:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Characters_created_by_Mark_Gruenwald

When he died he was cremated and they put his ashes in the ink of some comics ran that month. To try and pass off his influence as minor in the grand scheme of things just proves you know little about Marvel.

Steve is my favorite character. I love him enough that I have followed his comics for decades. Even through Loeb/Liefeld. Even through Spencer. Both of which were terrible runs. If that's not love then nothing is. I don't 'think less of him', particular since, I, unlike you, actually read his comics, and I know that Steve respects life and does not take a life without it a) weighing on his conscience and b) not having any other choice (with the exception of Rieber, who was mad about 9-11 and wrote a revenge plot, which was out-of-character for Steve).

But, essentially, it comes down to this, everyone is entitled to their opinion. The first Cap comic was released in 1941, with some lull time in the 50's, Steve was brought back in the 1960's and has been going steady ever since. According to Marvel's counting system that's over 700 comics. ANY stance or opinion on Steve's tactics and personality, including use of force, is defensible because it can be backed up somewhere. Each writer who has written Steve has brought their own politics to him. For example, DeMatteis, who wrote Cap prior to Gruenwald, also presented Steve as someone who did not kill and who preached pacifism. And while I don't agree that Steve is a pacifist, if one was introduced to Cap through DeMatteis, then any Cap that came afterward would feel weird to them because DeMatteis was their first intro. And writer Chuck Austen, yes, that Chuck Austen, the writer we do not speak of because he was so terrible, wrote a plot where the government put Steve in the ice intentionally because they knew he wouldn't approve of dropping the nukes on Japan and they didn't want to deal with his protests. So, you know, maybe don't jump on people for voicing an opinion??? Especially if your own knowledge of Cap is limited to recent comics.

 

[Vader's Fist]

In other news, Chris Evans talks about how Steve has changed when we meet him in Infinity War:

"He's such a monastic character and he has such a quotidian approach to his existence," the actor says of his star-spangled Avenger. "I imagine when he wakes up in the morning, there is a routine. Part of that is in his nature, part of that is just to keep his sanity, and that all kind of goes out the window a little bit after Civil War. You see a guy who doesn't stop caring but just puts down some of that obligation."

"I don't think it's in his nature to be too much of a loose cannon, but there's a lack of formality," Evans says. "He's checked all that at the door and he's gone inside himself for a little while, and as a result, he's a little irreverent and maybe even a little dangerous."

On the subject of where things stand between Steve and Tony:

Just know that is a clearly important aspect in both of our story lines. In a lot of ways, Steve and Tony rely on each other: We're two sides of the same coin, fighting for the same thing just with very different approaches, but neither one of us are complete. In a way, we need the other person. Reconciliation is necessary but probably not easy to come by.

Source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...s-captain-americas-dangerous-beard/539901002/

 

[ernesth100]

It is not confirmed that Cap bites it. None of us has seen the movie.

Rubbish. If there's one death I'm certain of it's Caps. Permanent or not. He's dying.

 

[Spider-Fan]

We shall see in a few days