CBR Poll... Spider-Man married or single?

[Themanofbat]

At the sacrifice of his own happiness. Hence him being a martyr.

I get that... I just don't believe Peter sees it that way.

 

[SuperFerret]

I get that... I just don't believe Peter sees it that way.

Which is why, ultimately, he's an idiot and wholly irresponsible.

Let's start with the motto. With great power must come great responsibility. Sounds simple enough, right? It's one of the best mantras to live by, and it works especially well for superheroes. After all, who's got greater power than a superhero?

But let's look at it on a personal level. If Great Power = Great Responsibility, then x Power = x Responsibility, and therefore only those without any power have no responsibilities. Everybody has responsibility equal to their power, whether it's you, me, the President of the United States or Spider-Man.

And Spider-Man takes this as "If I have the power to help a lot of people than most others, then it's my responsibility to do so." A noble sentiment, but the way he goes about it, totally sacrificing everything that makes him happy, he's not being responsible. Who's more effective at their job? The man who is happy with his life, or the man who is miserable? History has shown that people who throw themselves fully into their work at the expense of everything else are among the unhappiest people there are. The only people who can afford to do that are the already unhappy and the disturbed, both of which describe Batman, not Spider-Man.

Peter Parker's the marrying type. He's a romantic. Let's try and think of a time when he didn't have a crush or love interest to pine over. I know I can't think of one. Given the chance, Pete would have married any of them (whether or not each would be a mistake is up to debate). He would've married Gwen, he married MJ, and heck, he probably wants to marry this Carlie chick I keep hearing about. In the realm of romantic issues, that's the goal that a person like Pete sets for themselves, and they set that goal because that's what would make them happy.

But Pete's also an idiot, and will not act responsibly towards himself, because he's got this martyr complex.

Let's take a look at another superhero now, one who, like Peter Parker, had a simple upbringing by people who instilled in him a sense of responsibility and a desire for community service. A hero who, like Peter Parker, hasn't gone for very long without a woman to pine for.

We're talking about Superman.

The Superman-Lois-Clark love triangle is something that defined a lot of the romantic side of Superman's life for the longest time, until Clark sat and thought to himself, "hmm... this chick I like likes both Clark and Superman. It's too bad I'm not the same guy. Waitaminnit! I AM the same guy!" They got married, and BAM, everyone's happy, and Clark (having much greater power than someone like Spidey, and thus a greater responsibility) had not only eliminated one stressor in his life (the "will-we, won't-we" BS), but he now has someone to confide in, someone to whom he can relate his feelings to, and that would make him a more effective hero. The "spectre of Superman" was never really able to come between him and his happiness, because he never allowed it to, just like the millions of doctors, police officers, firefighters, soldiers, etc. who have actual functional lives don't let their jobs get in the way.

Spider-Man does. It's his gift and his curse, but if he didn't MAKE it his curse, it would only be a gift.


(This is all discussing the characters as people, obviously editors and writers have their say, and things may not happen how the would and should were these characters acting as if they were actual people in the situations they live in.)

 

[Themanofbat]

Well, it's not like Peter started off being all that noble.... when he got his powers, he wanted to make money off them...

Idiotic or not, when he failed to stop a crime, it cost him the most important man in his life... hence why I say he has "guilt driven responsibility"...

Whether this makes him an idiot certainly sounds like a topic of debate.

 

[dkamphaus43]

But I said "tweaks"... there have been moments where his "love life" dynamic was brought forth... like MJ watching Spidey & Black Cat suck face on the big screen in Times Square (or whereever in NYC that was), moments between MJ & Carlie, Peter waking up in bed with Michelle... thinking he slept with her even though he didn't... these may seem like minor quips and small story nuances, but it's these very same little things that help with the melodrama that is Peter Parker's personal life that you cannot really have with a married Peter... or at least, a successfully married Peter... the most melodram we got during their 20 year marriage was a time when MJ smoked and was almost having an affair with that blonde guy whose name I forget...

The generic super hero stories can be told regardless of relationship status.

But in MY opinion, you can have more persoanl life melodrama when he single.... or just dating.

And you think this kind of stuff is absolutely essential to the character of Spider-Man or essential in establishing him as an everyman who deals with the problems we all deal with in life?

Look my friend, I understand it's your opinion, and maybe this is just where you and I differ, but I have no interest whatsoever in reading about a character who keeps going from one doomed to fail relationship over and over and over again for the rest of his life. It's cliche, formulaic, predictable, it makes the character look like a loser who can't get his life together, and not only that, but how many times is the guy supposed to keep failing in relationship after relationship before he finally says, "That's it, screw it. I've had it with relationships. I'm done, no more!"

To be honest, if he's not going to be married, I'd actually rather have him decide to swear off relationships after a certain point. In fact, wouldn't that in a sense fit better with your view of Spider-Man, in that his great responsibility should always cause him to make great sacrifices in regard to his personal life?

So yeah, I'd rather he be somebody who decides to get married at some point and try to make his marriage work, or decide to be done with relationships after a certain period of time. But one or the other, and definitely not a constant revolving door love life.

 

[Themanofbat]

And you think this kind of stuff is absolutely essential to the character of Spider-Man or essential in establishing him as an everyman who deals with the problems we all deal with in life?

Look my friend, I understand it's your opinion, and maybe this is just where you and I differ, but I have no interest whatsoever in reading about a character who keeps going from one doomed to fail relationship over and over and over again for the rest of his life. It's cliche, formulaic, predictable, it makes the character look like a loser who can't get his life together, and not only that, but how many times is the guy supposed to keep failing in relationship after relationship before he finally says, "That's it, screw it. I've had it with relationships. I'm done, no more!"

To be honest, if he's not going to be married, I'd actually rather have him decide to swear off relationships after a certain point. In fact, wouldn't that in a sense fit better with your view of Spider-Man, in that his great responsibility should always cause him to make great sacrifices in regard to his personal life?

So yeah, I'd rather he be somebody who decides to get married at some point and try to make his marriage work, or decide to be done with relationships after a certain period of time. But one or the other, and definitely not a constant revolving door love life.

That's cool... but tell me how "marriage" isn't cliched, formulaic & predictable?

Depending on the eyes that read the stories, one isn't necessarily better than the other... because you'll have the pros and cons that are valid from both sides... though I beleive a single Spider-Man works better for Marvel in the long run (and I'm talking 30, 50 and 100 years from now) because of the very dynamics that you see as "doomed".

 

[dkamphaus43]

That's cool... but tell me how "marriage" isn't cliched, formulaic & predictable?

Depending on the eyes that read the stories, one isn't necessarily better than the other... because you'll have the pros and cons that are valid from both sides... though I beleive a single Spider-Man works better for Marvel in the long run (and I'm talking 30, 50 and 100 years from now) because of the very dynamics that you see as "doomed".

I'll admit, very often, marriages can fall victim to being cliched, formulaic and predictable and end up sucking as a result (Home Improvement and Everybody Loves Raymond come to mind.)

However, in the case of Peter and MJ, when handled correctly, their relationship and/or marriage has always been depicted as one of the most entertaining in the history of popular fiction (at least in my opinion), and one that works very well without having to rely on many of the cliches that make other relationships or marriages boring and a chore to either watch or read about.

And also when handled correctly (again, IMO), their marital problems could be dramatic and realistic without having to rely on the same tired cliches or formulas typically found in your dime-a-dozen doomed to fail relationship.

But again, those are just my views.

 

[runawayboulder]

Their marriage was great at first. I loved stuff like Jonathan Cesar and her supporting role in the Green Goblin stories leading up to Harry's death in Specular Spider-Man.

 

[dkamphaus43]

Their marriage was great at first. I loved stuff like Jonathan Cesar and her supporting role in the Green Goblin stories leading up to Harry's death in Specular Spider-Man.

Yep, and those stories in particular were handled by J.M. Dematteis, and he's always been a supporter of the marriage.

 

[JewishHobbit]

This poll will be flawed, because the people that prefer a "married" Spider-Man have stopped reading the book, so they can't compare what they remember to the "new single" Spider-Man status...

Having said that, I am aware that some pro-marriage people are reading the book...

You act like pro-marriage people have never read any books with him single. I'd say most of us have read plenty of old comics before he was married and I'd say most of us have read comics post-OMD. I'll be honest, pre-marriage comics were great but his being single had nothing to do with what made them great... zero. Post OMD, for what I read, has honestly lacked in quality. That's about 15 to 20 issues of BND and the first, I don't know, 10 to 15 issues of BIG TIME. There were some okay parts (and one issue that was great) but overall what I've tried has been some of the worst Spider-Man since I've started reading. In my opinion of course.

 

[dkamphaus43]

I'll be honest, pre-marriage comics were great but his being single had nothing to do with what made them great... zero.

Hear, hear. I'm a fan of the marriage, and I love the stories that took place pre-marriage, especially the original runs on Amazing by Gerry Conway and Roger Stern.

 

[Themanofbat]

You act like pro-marriage people have never read any books with him single. I'd say most of us have read plenty of old comics before he was married and I'd say most of us have read comics post-OMD. I'll be honest, pre-marriage comics were great but his being single had nothing to do with what made them great... zero. Post OMD, for what I read, has honestly lacked in quality. That's about 15 to 20 issues of BND and the first, I don't know, 10 to 15 issues of BIG TIME. There were some okay parts (and one issue that was great) but overall what I've tried has been some of the worst Spider-Man since I've started reading. In my opinion of course.

I get what you're saying... but the poll asks which is the better Spidey status...

"married versus NOW"

So those old pre-marriage comics shouldn't be taken into account.

Another thing that isn't quite fair is the duration of time... 20 years versus 4 years...

During that 20 year period, there were some GREAT stories...and like I had mentioned before, I had no issues with the marriage... but I was quickly reminded how great Spidey was (in the past) after BND began.. .really stirred some old feelings... and trust me, there have been some lame BND stories...

In any event, regardless of what the poll results are, I doubt Marvel is going to go back to a "marriage"... I've stated since BND began that I wouldn't be surprised if Peter and MJ hooked up again... but just not as a married couple... we got a brief glimpse at the end of Spider-Island that should have made ALL Spider-Man fans smile...

So in the meantime, I'm going to enjoy the ride.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yep, and those stories in particular were handled by J.M. Dematteis, and he's always been a supporter or the marriage.

Those were some good comics

Not to mention you had her there for support with his parents' return and then the issues with the clones and the pregnancy and all that. Everything during that tiem period from the marries through the clone saga just worked very well with them together.

It started slacking when they started trying to undo them. I mean, even during the Clone Saga when they were trying to replace Peter with Ben, the Parker marriage itself was very interesting and great. It dragged a little during the Mackie days and then got really good during the Straczynski days... and then it died.

Honestly, I think the marriage worked on every angle and maybe that's why today's books lack. It's half the book every issue, even with MJ being there. She's just filling the role of misc. character that he talks to. It could have been Black Cat or Gwen or Betty or Harry or Ben or anyone. MJ, to me, just feels plugged in there. When they were married however, it was different and better and more powerful.

 

[Themanofbat]

Hear, hear. I'm a fan of the marriage, and I love the stories that took place pre-marriage, especially the original runs on Amazing by Gerry Conway and Roger Stern.

It would have been impossible for Gerry Conway to write those stories if Peter were married...

 

[JewishHobbit]

In any event, regardless of what the poll results are, I doubt Marvel is going to go back to a "marriage"... I've stated since BND began that I wouldn't be surprised if Peter and MJ hooked up again... but just not as a married couple... we got a brief glimpse at the end of Spider-Island that should have made ALL Spider-Man fans smile...

So in the meantime, I'm going to enjoy the ride.

Oh, I never expect the marriage to return and that's why I have little interest in returning to the book. It'll always be half the book because it lacks development (or maybe that's just the spectre of Spider-Man getting between me and his book )

And little glimpses of Peter and Mj here and there isn't enough to make me excited or happy. If anything little moments like that just make me sad, reminding me of the great things the book's missing out on.

 

[JewishHobbit]

It would have been impossible for Gerry Conway to write those stories if Peter were married...

If a variation of those stories would have come out now after OMD they'd be lacking as much as any modern Spidey story does. There is no saving grace here

 

[dkamphaus43]

It would have been impossible for Gerry Conway to write those stories if Peter were married...

Considering that that was the era where Peter and MJ's relationship was first starting to blossom, I agree

But your comment makes it sound like I think Peter should have always been married right from the beginning. Not accurate. I of course don't think his marriage should be something the character should start out with.

Spider-Man should be the type of character who goes through school, experiments with different relationships, faces the problems and indignities we all deal with, etc. And his eventual marriage should be something that happens as a natural progression of his character.

I mean yes, at a certain stage in the character's existence, he shouldn't have a wife of course, it's something that should happen over time.

 

[Themanofbat]

...it's something that should happen over time.

Therein lies the flaw of a character that's "timeless"...

 

[Themanofbat]

or maybe that's just the spectre of Spider-Man getting between me and his book

If I knew how to do it... I would take that Ditko art, and put a current issue of ASM where Betty is, and your avatar where Peter is... t:

 

[Godzilla2014]

Not really. The spectre of Spider-Man always coming between him and anything positive means that the character can progress in no way whatsoever. He can't get a good job, can't fall in love, can't get married, can't have friends, can't join a team or six, can't walk down the street without stubbing his toe.

Personally, Marvel always tries to make Peter out as the every man who everyone should be able to relate to (and the marriage was somehow hurting that?) but this spectre stuff so that he can never move forward in life and the fact that he's a genious kinda negates that in my opinion.

I've always felt that Peter shouldn't be the person we relate to but rather the person we should look up to. He should be the underdog who made it, not the underdog who continues to be the underdog and can never be anything better than the underdog. That's just depression.

I completely agree. I don't want to see Peter Parker simply *****ing about being Spider-Man ruining his life, I want to see him overcome that obstacle and progress as a character as a result. That's what makes Spider-Man interesting as an everyman character.
He faces challenges and difficulties, just like we all do, whether it be supervillains like Green Goblin, Venom, and Doctor Octopus, or relationship troubles, and he meets the challenge and overcomes the obstacle.

 

[dkamphaus43]

Therein lies the flaw of a character that's "timeless"...

I'm just curious really, but what did you think of Superman's marriage?

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Characters are created to progress, not to regress. While the stories have been fantastic lately, it has been at the regression of the character and thus is ultimately a step back.

Nevermind the fact absolutely nothing they've done storywise minus him dating a boring red headed Gwen Stacy clone has meant having to break up the marriage. Every story arc could've been told with him being married.

Marvel was under the impression that him being married doesn't allow for good stories to be told, when that's laughable. Not having an actual talent like Slott on the book is what kept from good stories being told. Not having someone who had a vision for that character was the problem. Not the fact that he was a married man.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Characters are created to progress, not to regress. While the stories have been fantastic lately, it has been at the regression of the character and thus is ultimately a step back.

Nevermind the fact absolutely nothing they've done storywise minus him dating a boring red headed Gwen Stacy clone has meant having to break up the marriage. Every story arc could've been told with him being married.

Marvel was under the impression that him being married doesn't allow for good stories to be told, when that's laughable. Not having an actual talent like Slott on the book is what kept from good stories being told. Not having someone who had a vision for that character was the problem. Not the fact that he was a married man.

I agree. Marvel blamed the marriage for problems ailing the Spider-Man comics at the time that had nothing to do with it. The biggest problem the Spider-Man comics had shortly before OMD was too many company-wide crossovers and events. These were company-wide problems, not just Spider-Man. Getting rid of the marriage didn't fix that.

 

[Energist]

I voted married as well. As I've said before, if they wanted Pete to be single so bad why not a simple divorce? It's realistic as opposed to the route they took. I would have been OK with that. It's a normal real life thing that adds a new dynamic to the character.

I don't know if it was an "official" excuse or not, but I know the popular theory at the time at least was that a divorce would have aged Peter Parker even more than him being married, and making him more relatable to a younger audience was supposedly one of the reasons behind the elimination of the marriage in the first place.

Anyway, I abstained from voting. I never read any Spider-Man comic books with any regularity before One More Day, so I have nothing to compare this (four-year old now) "new" status-quo to. I will say, however, that I don't care for the Carlie Cooper character at all, and I'm absolutely rooting for Mary Jane to become Peter's primary love interest (again).

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That was "official" in the sense that I'm pretty sure Joe Q basically said that during the whole "One More Day" fiasco.

 

[Artistsean]

Even though I heard that OMIT sort of undid this, I like the marriage ending being something super natural because it didn't make Peter or MJ the bad guy and didn't undo their feeling for each other.

First I love the current stories. They are more exciting now than they have been.
I like Peter having a support system. I liked him being able to talk to MJ about his day as Spider-Man, even him being able to talk to Aunt May and seeing her reaction. I am not a fan of a hero having to carry the burden all alone, and even look like a horrible person often because his duties get in the way and he has not a single person he/she can talk to. I like when a hero has a support that he or she can turn to.
Maybe they don't have to be married but I like him having people in his life who know. Not everyone should know however.