The Dark Knight Rises Character Juggling

[Infinity9999x]

I was a bit wary of starting this thread, because I don't want it to evolve into one big over-reaction fest, but with the recent developments we've learned about major characters in this film (Talia), I thought it was a topic worth discussing.

Basically, how do people feel about the number of main characters, specifically villains, that Nolan seems to be including into this film? Do you think it will be fine, or do you think he could possibly be pushing the limits? The only reason I have some mild concerns (and I say mild, because I still have faith in Nolan's writing ability) is that I have yet to watch a good superhero movie with three main villains in it.

And, right off the bat, let me specify that I said three MAIN villains. I know that TDK and BB had many villains, but I don't count Chechen, Gambol, Maroni, Falcone, or Flass as main villains. We're talking the A-listers here, not supporting characters.

The only reason I'm a little cautious at this point is because the three villains he has all require a good amount of development to be done well. Neither Catwoman, Bane, nor Talia are characters like the Joker in which they can appear fully formed and not need any backstory explanation, or character development. (Catwoman could appear without backstory, but she still needs to develop as a character.) This takes time, and it's hard to do that well with three very interesting characters.

Now, Nolan did manage to cram in quite a few characters in TDK and still have two main villains, but I would still say that Two-Face didn't reach his full potential as a villain. (Two-Face, not Harvey Dent). However, most of you have heard my opinions on Two-Face, and we don't need to turn this into another Two-Face debate. Suffice it to say, while I do have faith in Nolan, and I'm confident he'll make a good movie, I am worried one of these characters is going to get the short end of the stick development-wise.

What do you guys think?

 

[batbax]

I was a bit wary of starting this thread, because I don't want it to evolve into one big over-reaction fest, but with the recent developments we've learned about major characters in this film (Talia), I thought it was a topic worth discussing.

Basically, how do people feel about the number of main characters, specifically villains, that Nolan seems to be including into this film? Do you think it will be fine, or do you think he could possibly be pushing the limits? The only reason I have some mild concerns (and I say mild, because I still have faith in Nolan's writing ability) is that I have yet to watch a good superhero movie with three main villains in it.

And, right off the bat, let me specify that I said three MAIN villains. I know that TDK and BB had many villains, but I don't count Chechen, Gambol, Maroni, Falcone, or Flass as main villains. We're talking the A-listers here, not supporting characters.

The only reason I'm a little cautious at this point is because the three villains he has all require a good amount of development to be done well. Neither Catwoman, Bane, nor Talia are characters like the Joker in which they can appear fully formed and not need any backstory explanation, or character development. (Catwoman could appear without backstory, but she still needs to develop as a character.) This takes time, and it's hard to do that well with three very interesting characters.

Now, Nolan did manage to cram in quite a few characters in TDK and still have two main villains, but I would still say that Two-Face didn't reach his full potential as a villain. (Two-Face, not Harvey Dent). However, most of you have heard my opinions on Two-Face, and we don't need to turn this into another Two-Face debate. Suffice it to say, while I do have faith in Nolan, and I'm confident he'll make a good movie, I am worried one of these characters is going to get the short end of the stick development-wise.

What do you guys think?

Definitely a valid concern, even for a Nolan film Its part of the reason I didnt necessarily see Talia being in this. And there are some out there who want Ra's resurrected and brought back. Thats a whole other can of worms lol. I dont doubt Nolan at all, but Id be lying if these recent developments didnt concern me at least a bit. I mean like you said all these characters really do need some sort of development.

 

[The Joker]

I'm put off by Talia apparently being in the movie. Not only because it's another extra villain, but I'm also afraid Bane will be a League lackey for her.

It seems Bane is destined to serve along side female villains on screen. First Poison Ivy and now Talia

 

[coderaven24]

I'm put off by Talia apparently being in the movie. Not only because it's another extra villain, but I'm also afraid Bane will be a League lackey for her.

It seems Bane is destined to serve along side female villains on screen. First Poison Ivy and now Talia

won't be close to the same, people are assuming she is running the league and not him. Can't run something if your working undercover.

 

[Bat-Mite]

If Nolan is willing to sacrifice a lot of these small characters that he likes to have in his films, I don't think we have anything to worry about. If he still wants to keep them in on top of everything else, it could be quite a busy movie. Whichever way it goes, I still think this has the potential to be the best film of the series.

I also don't think Talia needs a lot of explanation. To say that she is Ra's' daughter is enough to explain her motives... Batman killed her father and she wants to get revenge and carry on her father's legacy. I hope that the explanation for her motives isn't that simplistic, but she doesn't have to be a particularly deep character.

 

[imposserus]

sm3???!!!

it could happen
good 1
awesome 2
terrible 3

could happen

 

[Infinity9999x]

I'm put off by Talia apparently being in the movie. Not only because it's another extra villain, but I'm also afraid Bane will be a League lackey for her.

It seems Bane is destined to serve along side female villains on screen. First Poison Ivy and now Talia

I am as well. I mean, it does obviously look like he'll have some kind of cerebral edge, given that part of his "attack" on Batman seems to be turning the people of Gotham against him via the pictures of Harvey Dent and the speech, but at this point it's hard to tell. And as Batbox said, all of these characters are characters that need development. They need time, and I'm having a hard time seeing when they're going to find time to adequately fit in that development.

I really don't want to see Catwoman, Bane, or Talia get a Scarecrow-like treatment. I think they all deserve more then that. Not to mention, I'd like Batman to have a fair amount of character growth in this movie as well.

As for Talia...I'm still not sure how I feel about it. I've always been more interested in her when Ra's is still alive and you have that interesting dynamic of her mixed feelings towards Bruce and her allegiance to her father. I think it could have been interesting if the "twist" was Ra's coming back, and Talia is part of one big scheme to get revenge on Bruce, but at the climax you have her torn between her father and Bruce. It could make some interesting drama. But in that situation, I wouldn't want Catwoman in the movie because I'd want more time to develop Talia as a character.

 

[Infinity9999x]

If Nolan is willing to sacrifice a lot of these small characters that he likes to have in his films, I don't think we have anything to worry about. If he still wants to keep them in on top of everything else, it could be quite a busy movie. Whichever way it goes, I still think this has the potential to be the best film of the series.

I also don't think Talia needs a lot of explanation. To say that she is Ra's' daughter is enough to explain her motives... Batman killed her father and she wants to get revenge and carry on her father's legacy. I hope that the explanation for her motives isn't that simplistic, but she doesn't have to be a particularly deep character.

This is true, and I agree with you. It could be that simple, but I just don't find that very interesting. It's a basic revenge plot, and I think Talia's character could be more interesting then that.

 

[QBComics]

I have faith in Nolan. Look at TDK (or even Inception) and all of the characters he had to juggle there, so I don't see how he can't do it again here. I think he'll find the right role for each character and have them fit into the story accordingly.

(And I think it's just going to be Bane and Talia who will be the main baddies. I feel Catwoman will be an ally by the end.)

 

[Infinity9999x]

I have faith in Nolan. Look at TDK (or even Inception) and all of the characters he had to juggle there, so I don't see how he can't do it again here. I think he'll find the right role for each character and have them fit into the story accordingly.

(And I think it's just going to be Bane and Talia who will be the main baddies. I feel Catwoman will be an ally by the end.)

Well, that was sort of my point. In TDK he had only two main villains, and one of them I thought didn't quite reach their full potential. In Inception, he really only had a few characters that went through any kind of development at all throughout the movie (not a knock on the movie. It was a heist-film, so many of the characters don't really develop throughout the movie. Just the style of the genre).

 

[imposserus]

I have faith in Nolan. Look at TDK (or even Inception) and all of the characters he had to juggle there, so I don't see how he can't do it again here. I think he'll find the right role for each character and have them fit into the story accordingly.

(And I think it's just going to be Bane and Talia who will be the main baddies. I feel Catwoman will be an ally by the end.)

i'm not that super into him... or his other movies (especially the one with the spinning top)
he tries too hard to play up the smart heady one thing in another thing inside another thing... convoluted.

he's not that good, and people only swing off his bag becase he DIDN't pooch batman the first time
and his joker died making his second crack at it HUGE

no i see something bad happening, and CHRISTofer nolan maywell dissapoint everyone which is not what I want to happen...
it would be a real bummer

 

[Infinity9999x]

i'm not that super into him... or his other movies (especially the one with the spinning top)
he tries too hard to play up the smart heady one thing in another thing inside another thing... convoluted.

he's not that good, and people only swing off his bag becase he DIDN't pooch batman the first time
and his joker died making his second crack at it HUGE

no i see something bad happening, and CHRISTofer nolan maywell dissapoint everyone which is not what I want to happen...
it would be a real bummer

I honestly don't think he was trying to be that "smart" in Inception. The logic presented in the film was simple and he explained it directly to the audience. I find films like The Sting to be far more mentally challenging.

And while there is no doubt Heath Ledger's death influenced TDK's box office, the movie made far too much money for anyone to claim that it's the only reason it was that big. It was a good film so it kept drawing people back for more viewings. That was a very large factor as well.

 

[Hole Shot]

I just don't think Catwoman is going to be a villain, she'll fill the Rachel/pre-burnt Harvey space.

 

[Gianakin_]

I smell a troll.

 

[imposserus]

I honestly don't think he was trying to be that "smart" in Inception. The logic presented in the film was simple and he explained it directly to the audience. I find films like The Sting to be far more mentally challenging.

And while there is no doubt Heath Ledger's death influenced TDK's box office, the movie made far too much money for anyone to claim that it's the only reason it was that big. It was a good film so it kept drawing people back for more viewings. That was a very large factor as well.

your avitar illustrates your bias...
and i dissagre about inception, however it was explained clearly...
it was just nonscence - fun and cool and entertaining
but convoluted poppycock, not unlike momento (which i enjoy sleeping though) and the bulk of his work

i'm saying batman made nolan, not the other way around... and he may be pulling a raimi here pooping the movie

which will be no less forgivable than sm3
but it will be less surprising

 

[RedSkull]

Yeah except she'll also do some fighting and action sequences. I think it's been said as much from Anne that she ends up a hero or something like that. Catwoman has always had that anti-hero role so I'm ok with that. In regards to Nolan being in it for the money...come on now.

 

[imposserus]

I smell a troll.

i'll bet you mean me
i'm sorry, i am wearing my aude' du trolle' today
it'll wash right off

 

[Blue Sugar]

i'm not that super into him... or his other movies (especially the one with the spinning top)
he tries too hard to play up the smart heady one thing in another thing inside another thing... convoluted.

he's not that good, and people only swing off his bag becase he DIDN't pooch batman the first time
and his joker died making his second crack at it HUGE

no i see something bad happening, and CHRISTofer nolan maywell dissapoint everyone which is not what I want to happen...
it would be a real bummer

 

[Infinity9999x]

your avitar illustrates your bias...
and i dissagre about inception, however it was explained clearly...
it was just nonscence - fun and cool and entertaining
but convoluted poppycock, not unlike momento (which i enjoy sleeping though) and the bulk of his work

i'm saying batman made nolan, not the other way around... and he may be pulling a raimi here pooping the movie

which will be no less forgivable than sm3
but it will be less surprising

And you're disregard of a logical argument on the basis of my avatar illustrates your ignorance. Don't presume to know how "biased" I am on any character simply because of what picture I have with my username. My avatar is actually a scratch board art project I did a few years ago, and I've kept it out of a combination of liking the design and simply because I haven't felt the need to change it. Yes, I liked The Dark Knight, but I also freely comment on the problems I had with the film. Despite that, it's ludicrous to claim that the film made as much money as it did simply because of Heath's death, just as it would be ludicrous to claim Heath's death had no effect on it at all.

And this isn't a thread about Nolan as a filmmaker, so we probably shouldn't derail the topic any further. I can understand your dislike of his style though, everyone has different tastes. However, please try to not make broad generalizations to posters in the future. It's just rude to be honest.

 

[Diemtay]

I have a feeling Nolan will be able to pull off having so many characters in the film. I think the movie, given it's the final installment, will be about three hours long, so there will be plenty of breathing room for the characters. Also, the Lord of the Rings movies had an insane amount of characters, and they turned out fine. I don't see a reason why TDKR can't do it as well.

 

[Victarion]

Guys, guys! I'm loosing my grip; get me some talcom powder and push me harder!

I think Nolan will be able to drop it like its hot.

 

[imposserus]

@infinity

i agree, we need not derail further
and we've agreed on a lot of things
and being called biased is not grounds to call someone ignorant

it seem defensive

i didn't say tdk did well solely because of ledger passing on
but it's foolish to think it had nothing to do with it

what i was getting at is that nolan could dropp the ball here
(in a thread called juggling characters) what i mean should be clear
he's not infallable, and he could pooch this bad

i'm worried more and more that this will be less satisfying than the last one which was less satisfying than the first

 

[Bat-Mite]

Anyone who thinks Ledger's death had any major part in the film's success is insulting the characters and the mythos big time. Batman vs. Joker is much, MUCH bigger than Chris Nolan and Heath Ledger ever were or ever will be, and therefore it was destined to make tons of money. Just look at Batman '89's similar success at the box office. Not to mention all that buzz, the extremely popular virals, praise from Dini, Loeb, Del Toro, and Hamill long before Heath died, etc. Someone dying will cause a small amount of renewed interest for those who are fascinated in the morbid, but this is fleeting. Amy Winehouse's albums won't still be selling like hotcakes a month from now because people will have moved on.

 

[imposserus]

i didn't say tdk did well solely because of ledger passing on
but it's foolish to think it had nothing to do with it

Anyone who thinks Ledger's death had any major part in the film's success is insulting the characters and the mythos big time. Batman vs. Joker is much, MUCH bigger than Chris Nolan and Heath Ledger ever were or ever will be, and therefore it was destined to make tons of money. Just look at Batman '89's similar success at the box office. Not to mention all that buzz, the extremely popular virals, praise from Dini, Loeb, Del Toro, and Hamill long before Heath died, etc. Someone dying will cause a small amount of renewed interest for those who are fascinated in the morbid, but this is fleeting. Amy Winehouse's albums won't still be selling like hotcakes a month from now because people will have moved on.

::ahem::

i didn't say tdk did well solely because of ledger passing on
but it's foolish to think it had nothing to do with it

 

[Bat-Mite]

he's not that good, and people only swing off his bag becase he DIDN't pooch batman the first time
and his joker died making his second crack at it HUGE

Anyone who thinks Ledger's death had any major part in the film's success is insulting the characters and the mythos big time...

Ahem... I never accused you of claiming that Heath's death was the sole reason for the film's success, but it's obvious that you think it was a major part of that success, which is what I addressed.