Cindy Sheehan has really lost her mind.

[War Lord]

Yeah? Well according to Discover magazine and Popular Science, and every science channel out there, the answer is yes!

Not only that, but it's been yes for a very long time. But anybody trying to compete in the market using these technologies loses every time to the companies like Enron. that's why the only way it will happen is if the government makes it happen.

It's no, because though those alternatives exist, the economics isn't there yet. For example, the cost of hydrogen at the moment is about 11 or 12 dollars a gas equivalent gallon. That is beyond any normal person's, aside from a rich individual or an individual that's willing to lgive up everything to make it happen, ability to afford.

The only alternative at the moment that can compete price wise is electricity or natural gas. Unfortunately, though they can compete in price, they cannot compete in energy density because those options are only good for about 150 miles per fill and most people aren't willing to fill up more than once a week at most.

If you read the article, most of those alternatives. aside from electricity, have future in the energy supply, but they just aren't there yet.

 

[War Lord]

For the cost of what the goverment has already spent in Iraq, not counting what we will spend, they could have equipped 6.5 million buildings in the United States with solar panel roofing which would provide enough energy for 24 million buildings.

and leave Saddaam continuing his programs and oppressing his people.

Not exactly a great trade off.

 

[Sandman138]

It's no, because though those alternatives exist, the economics isn't there yet. For example, the cost of hydrogen at the moment is about 11 or 12 dollars a gas equivalent gallon. That is beyond any normal person's, aside from a rich individual or an individual that's willing to lgive up everything to make it happen, ability to afford.

The only alternative at the moment that can compete price wise is electricity or natural gas. Unfortunately, though they can compete in price, they cannot compete in energy density because those options are only good for about 150 miles per fill and most people aren't willing to fill up more than once a week at most.

If you read the article, most of those alternatives. aside from electricity, have future in the energy supply, but they just aren't there yet.

BioDeisel

 

[Addendum]

I wouldn't mind driving a Hybrid. However, I prefer driving something larger than a compact car, like a station wagon since it has enough storage room.

 

[War Lord]

Ya know, as great as that E85 fuel is...it's just not available enough. At least not around here. We have ONE station within 40 miles that provides E85...and at the moment it's more expensive than normal gas.

The problem with E85 is that it cannot totally replace gasoline as an alternative fuel. The only way it could is if basically every inch of farmland current dedicated towards food was geared towards corn for fuel and starve or import all food.

 

[Spider-Bite]

It's no, because though those alternatives exist, the economics isn't there yet. For example, the cost of hydrogen at the moment is about 11 or 12 dollars a gas equivalent gallon. That is beyond any normal person's, aside from a rich individual or an individual that's willing to lgive up everything to make it happen, ability to afford.

The only alternative at the moment that can compete price wise is electricity or natural gas. Unfortunately, though they can compete in price, they cannot compete in energy density because those options are only good for about 150 miles per fill and most people aren't willing to fill up more than once a week at most.

If you read the article, most of those alternatives. aside from electricity, have future in the energy supply, but they just aren't there yet.

Bull. for the cost of the Iraq war you could have equipped solar panel roofing on 6.5 million buildings, complete with all the other parts needed to get the enegy back into the electricl grid. This would provide enough electrical consumption for 24 million buildings.

you can build a car out of different materials.
it will be 50% less costly to produce
use 1/4 the amount of energy
twice as strong
run off of electricity

that solar panel roofing does pay for itself over time. and there is slightly more expenseive solar panels which when equipped on one house produce 5 times more electricity than the average house the same size uses. The majority of the cost is the other parts and pieces and not the soalr panels.

Our government should fund equipping this on buildings. 1 million a year for the next 4 years and do something like NASA's X-prize. whoever can sell it for the cheapest the government will buy another 4 million from. then you do it again, and you pass a law that says all buildings manufactured after a certain date have to come with this. all of this will have driven down the cost dramatically, so that 10 years later you pass a law that in order to redo your roof you have to redo it with solar panel roofing. within 20 years after that law was passed every building in america would have this. the solar panels last 20 years and everything else that comes with it lasts a lifetime.

you pass a law right now today, that all vehicles manufactured 8 years from now have to be like the one I described. Within 20 years almost every vehicle on the road would be like that.

The result? 40 years from now people don't pay electric bills anymore and they don't buy gas anymore. their car payments are 50% cheaper. and sicne their vehicles are cheaper and they don't get damaged as easy, your insurance is also cheaper.

the final result?
this would increase the average american's spending power by 50%. OUr terrorist problem is solved as well as our pollution problem.

I'm in the middle of some number crunching of this plan which I plan to send to the DNC, with all of the exact details and proposed dates for passing laws and their dates for going into effect.

At the current price of this technology is would cost annually less than the war in Iraq costs annually.

 

[War Lord]

BioDeisel

Same problem as ethanol. More expensive and the need to dedicate huge tracts of land toward growing corn.

 

[Spider-Bite]

and leave Saddaam continuing his programs and oppressing his people.

Not exactly a great trade off.

and create anarchy and anti-americanism throughout Iraq and the middle east, 30,000 dead civillains in Iraq. Another 3000 dead Americans, and made ourselves a bigger target for terrorists than ever before?

that'a horrible trade off.
while making the first steps towards energy independance is an excellent trade off.

this entire HOLY War is because of oil. 9/11 was about oil. we absolutely have to stop bossing the middle east around. that's why they attacked us. and they vowed to continue untill we get out and let them develop at their own pace like we were allowed to develop.

 

[Spider-Bite]

I forgot to mention the solar panels are the cheapest part of solar technology. the bulk of the cost is the other stuff that comes with it. In my numbers I gave for cost, that other stuff was included.

 

[Spider-Bite]

I think I pretty much hit the nail on the head for our energy/ foreign policy debate. Instead of wasting resources, lives, and money on war, we should be using them to invest in a better future for ourselves.

We aren't yet in a position to fix the world, when we have so many problems at home. You can't use flawed tools to fix a radio. the world is the radio. we are the flawed tools. we don't even have equal rights or complete democracy at home. How are we going to force it on people that don't want it?

Millions of Americans don't have the same rights as others. Not every person even has the right to vote. If it wasn't for the New York times the American people wouldn't even get to have their political say on wire tapping. We should know about these things so we can decide if we vote for a candidate who supports or opposes it. I oppose it when it's done without congressional oversight. That is necessary to make sure the power isn't abused.

 

[chaseter]

Speaking of Cindy, Tom Cruise has lost his mind.

 

[War Lord]

Bull. for the cost of the Iraq war you could have equipped solar panel roofing on 6.5 million buildings which would provide enough electrical consumption for 24 million buildings.

you can build a car out of different materials.
it will be 50% less costly to produce
use 1/4 the amount of energy
twice as strong
run off of electricity

that solar panel roofing does pay for itself over time. and there is slightly more expenseive solar panels which when equipped on one house produce 5 times more electricity than the average house the same size uses.

Our government should fund equipping this on buildings. 1 million a year for the next 4 years and do something like NASA's X-prize. whoever can sell it for the cheapest the government will buy another 4 million from. then you do it again, and you pass a law that says all buildings manufactured after a certain date have to come with this. all of this will have driven down the cost dramatically, so that 10 years later you pass a law that in order to redo your roof you have to redo it with solar panel roofing. within 20 years after that law was passed every building in america would have this. the solar panels last 20 years and everything else that comes with it lasts a lifetime.

you pass a law right now today, that all vehicles manufactured 8 years from now have to be like the one I described. Within 20 years almost every vehicle on the road would be like that.

The result? 40 years from now people don't pay electric bills anymore and they don't buy gas anymore. their car payments are 50% cheaper. and sicne their vehicles are cheaper and they don't get damaged as easy, your insurance is also cheaper.

the final result?
this would increase the average american's spending power by 50%. OUr terrorist problem is solved as well as our pollution problem.

I'm in the middle of some number crunching of this plan which I plan to send to the DNC, with all of the exact details and proposed dates for passing laws and their dates for going into effect.

At the current price of this technology is would cost annually less than the war in Iraq costs annually.

You can do many things. If they built vehicles out of composite carbon fibre, those vehicles would be less than half the weight, but triple the cost. Who's going to buy a $13,000 (current) vehicle for $50,000?

Believe it or not, car companies and oil companies are not holding back anything. They want to as much be part of the future as everybody else, because when that future is here, they will be part of it. If they don't become part of the future, they go out of business. Nobody wants to be out of busines.

To solarize a house, it adds about $70,000 to $100,000 to the cost of the house. It would take at least 25 years to recover the cost based on current heating bills. Few people these days live in homes for 25 years anymore. Most people are moving within 5 years or 10 years, far short in recovering the costs.

You can pass whatever laws you want, it doesn't speed up research because of it. If you can pass a law and say all cars must be flying within 10 years, do you honestly believe that because you passed such a law that research into such a concept will yield sufficient results in that time?

The automotive companies are spending huge sums on research in relation to alternative fuels and other means of powering cars already, into the billions. They don't need laws to get them to do more, because they are pretty much doing everything they can now.

By your method, why not pass a law forbidding people from using any kind of energy and solve the problem all at once?

 

[War Lord]

I forgot to mention the solar panels are the cheapest part of solar technology. the bulk of the cost is the other stuff that comes with it. In my numbers I gave for cost, that other stuff was included.

It's still about 18 cents a kilowatt, which is about 3 times the cost of oil.

 

[War Lord]

I think I pretty much hit the nail on the head for our energy/ foreign policy debate. Instead of wasting resources, lives, and money on war, we should be using them to invest in a better future for ourselves.

We aren't yet in a position to fix the world, when we have so many problems at home. You can't use flawed tools to fix a radio. the world is the radio. we are the flawed tools. we don't even have equal rights or complete democracy at home. How are we going to force it on people that don't want it?

Millions of Americans don't have the same rights as others. Not every person even has the right to vote. If it wasn't for the New York times the American people wouldn't even get to have their political say on wire tapping. We should know about these things so we can decide if we vote for a candidate who supports or opposes it. I oppose it when it's done without congressional oversight. That is necessary to make sure the power isn't abused.

Every American, except convicts in some states has the right to vote.

Thanks to the New York Times, any terrorists on our soil is no longer using the telephone or internet to communicate. In other words, thanks to the New York Times, the terrorists will have an easier time launching the next terrorist attack, because we now have less access into what they are doing.

Just so you know, while congress in general was not knowledgeable about the wire tapping, the members that needed to know, knew. Also, just so you know, it is the president's perogative when it comes to national security, not congress.

Just as the Fore Fathers determined.

 

[Spider-Bite]

It's still about 18 cents a kilowatt, which is about 3 times the cost of oil.

wrong again buddy. if you have this on your house, you don't pay for electricity. the panels collects the energy. the other parts convert it to electricity and feed it back into the grid.

 

[Spider-Bite]

You can do many things. If they built vehicles out of composite carbon fibre, those vehicles would be less than half the weight, but triple the cost. Who's going to buy a $13,000 (current) vehicle for $50,000?

Believe it or not, car companies and oil companies are not holding back anything. They want to as much be part of the future as everybody else, because when that future is here, they will be part of it. If they don't become part of the future, they go out of business. Nobody wants to be out of busines.

To solarize a house, it adds about $70,000 to $100,000 to the cost of the house. It would take at least 25 years to recover the cost based on current heating bills. Few people these days live in homes for 25 years anymore. Most people are moving within 5 years or 10 years, far short in recovering the costs.

You can pass whatever laws you want, it doesn't speed up research because of it. If you can pass a law and say all cars must be flying within 10 years, do you honestly believe that because you passed such a law that research into such a concept will yield sufficient results in that time?

The automotive companies are spending huge sums on research in relation to alternative fuels and other means of powering cars already, into the billions. They don't need laws to get them to do more, because they are pretty much doing everything they can now.

By your method, why not pass a law forbidding people from using any kind of energy and solve the problem all at once?

Those vehicles would be 50% cheaper to produce. just last months discover magazine had a long article. you replace a lot of the materials used to build cars with a polymer fiber much like that used in motorcycle helmets.

we don't need to research alternative nergies anymore. they already exist. their price is based on mass production. passing these laws and governement contracts to whoever offers it the cheapest drives down the cost. once they offer it cheap in exchange for the government contract then we know how cheap it can be sold for, and we don't have to allow them to pricegouge.

I'm not trying to be rude, but your not up to date with what's going on in the science world or the middle east.

 

[chaseter]

Switching over to more hybrid cars would save a weeks worth of oil and gas.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Every American, except convicts in some states has the right to vote.

Thanks to the New York Times, any terrorists on our soil is no longer using the telephone or internet to communicate. In other words, thanks to the New York Times, the terrorists will have an easier time launching the next terrorist attack, because we now have less access into what they are doing.

Just so you know, while congress in general was not knowledgeable about the wire tapping, the members that needed to know, knew. Also, just so you know, it is the president's perogative when it comes to national security, not congress.

Just as the Fore Fathers determined.

right so we outlaw an acitivity and then those who disagree with us don't ge tto vote and have their say on the law?

that is communism by very definition. the same BS we ousted!

government secrecy is also communism. in a democracy the voters get a say in what their governement does. There is a reason this is illegal. Nixon used it for corrupt purposes. that's why there is a court in place exactly for this. they issue the warrants. they are available by phone 24 hours a day. the president can even get the warrant within 72 horus after tapping the phone. the repsonsiiblity of these courts is to make sure it is ONLY used to protect America and not for corrupt purposes.

politicians are very corrupt. that's why the constitution has so many checks and balances. what if Bush was doing something Illegal, and he used the wiretapps to find out who knew what? then he can have them silenced by arresting them as an enemy combatant with no trial, no lawyer, no phone call, and never being heard from again.

this is all communism. bush is a communist.

 

[War Lord]

wrong again buddy. if you have this on your house, you don't pay for electricity. the panels collects the energy. the other parts convert it to electricity and feed it back into the grid.

Wrong again, buddy-boy!!

Since most people don't have 70 grand (the lower end cost of solarizing your house), they would have to borrow the money.

Let's say they have 10 grand saved and borrow 60 grand at a rate of 6% over 25 years.

Using a handy-dandy mortgage calculator, that works out to be about $386 per month. Compared with $150 for most electrical bills, that works out to be about 2.57 times as costly or about 15 cents per kilowatt.

Isn't economics wonderful?

 

[Spider-Bite]

eyee eye eyeyeyeye

yes the solar panel costs money. but after a few decades you get your money back. go back and read my energy plan. seriously. it was a plan to drive down the cost and get it on every building in america. you can't fix the problem overnight. it would take decades. but once those decades pass were sailing in economic heaven.

and for th solar panel roofing I want them to use it costs 175,000. right now. the price of technology goes down the older it is and even faster if it's mass produced.

this brand provides 5 times as much energy as the average home uses. and it only covers half the roof of the average size home. dude I've been doing the math and the reasarch. trust me. it all comes out. it all adds up right. my energy plan would save america an enourmous amount of money in the LONG RUN!

 

[War Lord]

Those vehicles would be 50% cheaper to produce. just last months discover magazine had a long article. you replace a lot of the materials used to build cars with a polymer fiber much like that used in motorcycle helmets.

we don't need to research alternative nergies anymore. they already exist. their price is based on mass production. passing these laws and governement contracts to whoever offers it the cheapest drives down the cost. once they offer it cheap in exchange for the government contract then we know how cheap it can be sold for, and we don't have to allow them to pricegouge.

I'm not trying to be rude, but your not up to date with what's going on in the science world or the middle east.

You can make cars out of any material you want, but that material needs to be paid for. Like I said, carbon composite is half the weight of steel, but it costs about 3 times as much. You'll have a more fuel efficient car because of it, but it would likely take longer than the life of the vehicle to make up the savings.

You can't pass a law forbidding economics from working the way it works. If it were possible to artificially control the workings of economics, the Soviet Union wouldn't have collapsed and Cuba would be a paradise, as opposed to a hell hole.

 

[War Lord]

eyee eye eyeyeyeye

yes the solar panel costs money. but after a few decades you get your money back. go back and read my energy plan. seriously. it was a plan to drive down the cost and get it on every building in america. you can't fix the problem overnight. it would take decades. but once those decades pass were sailing in economic heaven.

Yes, after a few decades. Most people don't live in their homes for decades any more. Most people don't even live in the same home for a decade.

You're ultimately asking people to voluntarily take a bath for ideology.

 

[Spider-Bite]

Yes, after a few decades. Most people don't live in their homes for decades any more. Most people don't even live in the same home for a decade.

You're ultimately asking people to voluntarily take a bath for ideology.

are you on crack? I had to ask, because this will increase the value of your home. when you sold your home you would get that money back. dude just go back and read the plan. under my plan within a couple decades it would be on every single building in America, and it would be very, very, very cheap. it wouldn't matter where you lived. there would always be free energy. yes it's an investment in the future. kind of like NASA. actually my plan would use less tax dollars than the Mars Mission or even what the total cost of the war in Iraq will be.

 

[War Lord]

eyee eye eyeyeyeye

yes the solar panel costs money. but after a few decades you get your money back. go back and read my energy plan. seriously. it was a plan to drive down the cost and get it on every building in america. you can't fix the problem overnight. it would take decades. but once those decades pass were sailing in economic heaven.

and for th solar panel roofing I want them to use it costs 175,000. right now. the price of technology goes down the older it is and even faster if it's mass produced.

this brand provides 5 times as much energy as the average home uses. and it only covers half the roof of the average size home.

The only way something like solar power will find mass acceptance is when the economics of it becomes within reach of the average person, nothing less. Only when solar power becomes less expensive than fossil fuels will people make such a switch. That doesn't even mean that solar power, as cool as it is, is even the right answer. In the same popular mechanics magazine that I mentioned, though hydrogen currently costs 5 times the rate of gasoline, by 2012 researchers think they can get the costs below $2 or even cheaper than gasoline is currently. But it's going to take research, not government laws for it to happen.

 

[Spider-Bite]

The only way something like solar power will find mass acceptance is when the economics of it becomes within reach of the average person, nothing less. Only when solar power becomes less expensive than fossil fuels will people make such a switch. That doesn't even mean that solar power, as cool as it is, is even the right answer. In the same popular mechanics magazine that I mentioned, though hydrogen currently costs 5 times the rate of gasoline, by 2012 researchers think they can get the costs below $2 or even cheaper than gasoline is currently. But it's going to take research, not government laws for it to happen.

OMG!

I have been saying the whole time, that our govenrment needs to drive down the costs. Read my plan. nothing in there is a lie. it's a plan to make the cost go down! It would happen.