Conan

[BestGirl]

Tiger Woods is half-Thai, half black. Do you think (assuming for a moment he can act), that he'd be good casting for the part of an ancient, Thai hero?

I think Woods looks more black than Thai, though.

 

[nephron]

Momoa is half-white, right? A better question would be, "Can someone who is only half black play Black Panther?" I'm sure the answer is yes.

Maybe, but I've yet to see a half-black, half-whatever that looks like they could be of pure Sub-Saharan ancestry. They're usually too light. But maybe.

Ethnic appearance is only part of it.

Momoa simply doesn't look like how Conan is described. At all. He's not big enough, he's not mean-looking enough, and he looks like someone from a sandy, south Pacific beach.

Conan is a black-haired Celt, of the same general phenotype as people like Sean Connery, Pierce Brosnan, Catherine Zeta Jones, or Colin Farrell. Momoa is clearly not.

 

[BlackLantern]

well I know in the novels, Conans heritage is somewhat of a focal point......this is not the case in the films...the Cimmerians are portrayed as a once proud warrior race of which Conan is the last of....

 

[nephron]

well I know in the novels, Conans heritage is somewhat of a focal point......

Exactly. While it's not fair to say Howard's stories centered entirely around race, Conan's heritage as a Cimmerian is certainly a very important and clearly defined aspect of the character.

this is not the case in the films...the Cimmerians are portrayed as a once proud warrior race of which Conan is the last of....

Again, you are right. I've read the script, and I have to wonder why they're even calling this movie "Conan".

They've changed the characters origin, motivation, background, history, personality, appearance, and ethnicity. They've changed the geographic details of the background setting, and they've veered away from Howard's "low-fantasy" tone by introducing over-the-top goofy things like magical Blind Archers. The story is completely new, and they've ignored Howard's central theme of Barbarism vs. Civilization.

What we are getting is not a Conan Movie.

 

[BlackLantern]

it's no more of a deviation than in the original films, snake people, evil horned wizards, and all that

Conan The Destoryer has been on TV lately

 

[BestGirl]

Are Conan's Cimmerians supposed to be related in any way to the real life ancient Cimmerians?

 

[C. Lee]

it's no more of a deviation than in the original films, snake people, evil horned wizards, and all that

Not too mention that the original movie took it's main villain from the Kull stories.

 

[nephron]

Are Conan's Cimmerians supposed to be related in any way to the real life ancient Cimmerians?

Not really.

Howard wrote an essay called "The Hyborian Age" where he detailed all the different races & countries of his background setting. The Cimmerians are his literary analogue of Gaels/Celts, in the same way that his fictional countries of Asgard & Vanaheim are analogues of Viking Scandinavia.

 

[C. Lee]

Are Conan's Cimmerians supposed to be related in any way to the real life ancient Cimmerians?

Nope....Gaels are the descendants of Conan's people....the historical Cimmerians were from around southern Russia as I remember.

 

[nephron]

it's no more of a deviation than in the original films, snake people, evil horned wizards, and all that

Conan The Destoryer has been on TV lately

Agreed, but not only does that not make any of this cool, in a way it makes it even worse. Let me explain....

Most fans of Howard (not all, but definitely most) tend to hate the "orginal" film for obvious reasons - Milius competely butchered the character in every way imaginable.

Then we heard they were making a new one. CPI, that is, Conan Properties assured everyone that the new film would actually be true to the stories. We were all excited about it, because there certainly hadn't been a real Conan movie yet.

As it turned out, the people to whom the rights were licensed (Millenium/New Image) had no interest whatsoever in Howard's work.

For fans of Howard, this new project has been a prolonged series of disappointment, made even worse by the fact that CPI said it was going to be everything the "original" wasn't.

 

[C. Lee]

I wonder if there's a way to edit the Rolf Mueller series to make it at least half way watchable?

 

[Wolvieboy17]

Again, you are right. I've read the script, and I have to wonder why they're even calling this movie "Conan".

Where did you read the script?

 

[rogue trooper]

Maybe, but I've yet to see a half-black, half-whatever that looks like they could be of pure Sub-Saharan ancestry. They're usually too light. But maybe.

Ethnic appearance is only part of it.

Momoa simply doesn't look like how Conan is described. At all. He's not big enough, he's not mean-looking enough, and he looks like someone from a sandy, south Pacific beach.

Conan is a black-haired Celt, of the same general phenotype as people like Sean Connery, Pierce Brosnan, Catherine Zeta Jones, or Colin Farrell. Momoa is clearly not.

Momoa will more than likely look big enough by the time he begins shooting, so on that there should be no worries. Momoa also does have the brooding look that Conan should have. Momoa, sans his dusky skin and eye brows, has very European-like facial features.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

I love how we're still caring about the casting, like its the one weak link in an otherwise perfect film. So far we have a director who's made one terrible fantasy film already, another departure from the original R. EH stories, and by various accounts, a terrible script. Personally, I don't think the colour of Momoa's skin really weighs into the list of problems there... Whether he can act or not, sure thats important, but again, no one actually seems to give a rats arse about that. Its just another stupid and utterly superficial fanboy argument, that until people get over, will continue hampering any chance of an interesting constructive discussion over a Conan movie.

 

[T'Jai]

Since when did I say "my standards" have anything to do with genetics? I never said they did, and in fact I made several statements indicating the contrary. You either don't understand what those standards are, or are being deliberately obtuse. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I haven't articulated my standards well enough.

Here they are again:

Actors are like props. I don't care if fake-guns are used in a movie, so long as they look real. I don't care if the swords are made of dull aluminum, so long as they look like sharpened steel. I don't care that Forrest Whitaker was American, but he looked enough like Idi Amin to be considered well-cast for the part.

Your "standards" may not but your arguments have fallen back upon that factor quite frequently(or more properly ethnicity), thus my ensuing confusion.

The Cimmerians were ancestral Celts, and Conan's racial status as a Cimmerian was a very important part of how he fit into his world. For Conan, race DOES matter, and casting Momoa is EXACTLY the same thing as casting a white guy to be the Black Panther, or a black guy to be William Wallace. It's stupid.

this quote (from your first post seems to support my confusion) we have not seen pics of him As Conan yet and that one mock up by Mournblade wasn't bad at all comparatively, looked like it could be a sharp sword to me...

There's a difference between genetics and phenotype. I'm arguing for a superficial, phenotypic resemblance. That's all.

Actually for veracity's sake your early arguments were very focused on Jason's Pacific Islander heritage and his unsuitability based on that, later on after the fire had died down. the statements became more about the superficiality of the Actor but initially it was very much about his ethnicity... which I am not condemning out of hand just clarifying because my posts have been reacting primarily to your initial objection.

According to my standards, the actor should look like the character. In the case of the Black Panther, my standards dictate that the actor look like he could be a native of the Sub-Saharan African jungle, which means he's going to be a black guy. I don't care who auditions for the part of the Black Panther, if the actor isn't black, they don't get the part. He should also have "superhero physique", be fairly handsome, etc. etc. That's it. those are my standards.

looking at it from That perspective I could understand whereas you may have reservations, however I believe this should prospectively put some of those to rest.

I've addressed what you said. Now, could you answer my question?

Again, it's a very simple question. Thus far, only a couple people have answered it. The rest have either ignored it, or tried to dodge it by pretending to not understand it, or pretending it's somehow unfair, or unanswerable. Of course it's none of those things - responses like yours are a dodge.

Enough with the Bill Clinton style, "depends-on-what-the-meaning-of-'is'-is" non-anwers.

Questions do not come any simpler, more straightforward, or any more non-ambiguous than this one

Here it is again:

Black Panther is a fictional character, a member of a fictional people, and king of a fictional country. Would it make any sense if someone who wasn't a black guy was cast as the Black Panther?

Sorry to misinterpret the root of your query but with all the talk of the proposed genetics of the Cimmerians I keyed in on that. To directly answer your question NO...

If you saw Momoa walking down the street, and someone asked you what you thought his heritage was, would you think "Probably pure Scottish or Irish.".
Of course you wouldn't. That right there disqualifies him as Conan. Sorry.
Conan is one of those characters for whom his race does matter.

Don't see my response to this any more so I will repeat it:
To be honest I have met Jason and I thought he was a white dude with a tan (this is back in '03-'04)

Tiger Woods is half-Thai, half black. Do you think (assuming for a moment he can act), that he'd be good casting for the part of an ancient, Thai hero?

Actually he's only 1/4th Thai his occidental features come from a combination of Thai and Chinese heritage which do not favor the Thai heritage so... No

Amusingly enough I'm not 100 with the casting myself and I Hated the script. I have no issue with you taking umbrage at all, but stay the course man. You don't like Mamoa cause he ain't (all)white and Conan is, and in my opinion there is actually nothing wrong with that objection on a superficial level...

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Exactly. While it's not fair to say Howard's stories centered entirely around race, Conan's heritage as a Cimmerian is certainly a very important and clearly defined aspect of the character.




Again, you are right. I've read the script, and I have to wonder why they're even calling this movie "Conan".

They've changed the characters origin, motivation, background, history, personality, appearance, and ethnicity. They've changed the geographic details of the background setting, and they've veered away from Howard's "low-fantasy" tone by introducing over-the-top goofy things like magical Blind Archers. The story is completely new, and they've ignored Howard's central theme of Barbarism vs. Civilization.

What we are getting is not a Conan Movie.

Totally agree. I wouldn't see this movie even if it was free.

 

[Nivek]

I for one cannot wait till we get some footage/ photo's so we can leave this bull***... uncomfortable... conversation about a fictional thousand year old barbarians race in the past. This whole "not white enough" undertone is very bothersome to me, especially given the new actor resembles artistic depictions of the Conan character better than Austrian gap toothed 'roid gorilla.

But like I said, after we get some pic's, this will be long forgotten.... I hope.

 

[BlackLantern]

uncomfortable?? if it gets some things out in the open, I don't see the problem

 

[T'Jai]

uncomfortable?? if it gets some things out in the open, I don't see the problem

Agreed, I'm black myself but I don't like the double standard when it comes to All Things Racial that happens these days someone has a racially based opinion, let them speak it and let's talk about it...

All this "shut up whitey" BS only pushes people with actual concerns into bigotry. If someone has a concern they should be able to bring it up and we should try to discuss it from all viewpoints rationally. Examining the root of objections on both ends lets us really look at where we are when it comes to our own prejudice on these matters...

the fact that it has become a major part of this thread can be seen as unfortunate but it's nice to have this on the table and so far we have avoided any flaming or trolling for the most part...

I for one feel a little disappointed (just a little cause after all this is Hollywood) that the script is far more Akin to the former movies than it is to Anything Howard ever wrote...

 

[Nivek]

Honestly BL, it's not like the guy doesn't look that non-white to begin with. He has a very light completion, and his facial features are pretty much Caucasian.

It just some really seems to be more beeding around the bush with what wants to be really said about this casting.

I for one feel a little disappointed (just a little cause after all this is Hollywood) that the script is far more Akin to the former movies than it is to Anything Howard ever wrote...

To me, this should be the biggest discussion issue with a new Conan film right now, not talking about Ethnic heritage for a fictional character based at least 15,000 years ago. It's just distracting from more pressing matters in relation to the films story and marketing. I'm personally not happy with doing the "Last of his tribe" deal all over again...

 

[Ratcrawler]

Momoa simply doesn't look like how Conan is described. At all. He's not big enough, he's not mean-looking enough, and he looks like someone from a sandy, south Pacific beach.

He's 6'4". Conan's sPecific height was never officially stated but most believe it was either 6' based on a letter Howard wrote or 6'2" based on his comparison to another character who was Conan's physical double.

 

[BlackLantern]

Agreed, I'm black myself but I don't like the double standard when it comes to All Things Racial that happens these days someone has a racially based opinion, let them speak it and let's talk about it...

All this "shut up whitey" BS only pushes people with actual concerns into bigotry. If someone has a concern they should be able to bring it up and we should try to discuss it from all viewpoints rationally. Examining the root of objections on both ends lets us really look at where we are when it comes to our own prejudice on these matters...

the fact that it has become a major part of this thread can be seen as unfortunate but it's nice to have this on the table and so far we have avoided any flaming or trolling for the most part...

I for one feel a little disappointed (just a little cause after all this is Hollywood) that the script is far more Akin to the former movies than it is to Anything Howard ever wrote...

I've read a part of one of the books, never even knew Conan was a literary character until I was a teenager...played the Xbox game though, that was kinda fun

It just some really seems to be more beeding around the bush with what wants to be really said about this casting.

and I wish those people would just come out and say it

To me, this should be the biggest discussion issue with a new Conan film right now, not talking about Ethnic heritage for a fictional character based at least 15,000 years ago. It's just distracting from more pressing matters in relation to the films story and marketing. I'm personally not happy with doing the "Last of his tribe" deal all over again...

I like Momoa and I hope he does well, but I feel bad for the fans of the books who thought they were getting something more in line with the novles than the orginal films

 

[T'Jai]

and I wish those people would just come out and say it

Well they actually have...

The thing of it is Howard grew up in the early 1900's in Texas his... attitude towards Literary characters very much resembles what you may expect from a man of that time and location.
So individuals that are fans of his work whether or not they share his ideals may have some concern that people may lump them in with that type of ideology...

 

[C. Lee]

As I've said before....I haven't read any of Howard's works since around 1980....so specifics escape me at the moment....but I have no major problem with the current casting of Momoa (I would prefer him being more rugged than male model looking).....it's the talk of the storyline that bothers me.

 

[nephron]

Your "standards" may not but your arguments have fallen back upon that factor quite frequently(or more properly ethnicity), thus my ensuing confusion.
this quote (from your first post seems to support my confusion) we have not seen pics of him As Conan yet and that one mock up by Mournblade wasn't bad at all comparatively, looked like it could be a sharp sword to me...
Actually for veracity's sake your early arguments were very focused on Jason's Pacific Islander heritage and his unsuitability based on that, later on after the fire had died down. the statements became more about the superficiality of the Actor but initially it was very much about his ethnicity... which I am not condemning out of hand just clarifying because my posts have been reacting primarily to your initial objection.


looking at it from That perspective I could understand whereas you may have reservations, however I believe this should prospectively put some of those to rest.


Sorry to misinterpret the root of your query but with all the talk of the proposed genetics of the Cimmerians I keyed in on that. To directly answer your question NO...
Don't see my response to this any more so I will repeat it:
To be honest I have met Jason and I thought he was a white dude with a tan (this is back in '03-'04)
Actually he's only 1/4th Thai his occidental features come from a combination of Thai and Chinese heritage which do not favor the Thai heritage so... No

Amusingly enough I'm not 100 with the casting myself and I Hated the script. I have no issue with you taking umbrage at all, but stay the course man. You don't like Mamoa cause he ain't (all)white and Conan is, and in my opinion there is actually nothing wrong with that objection on a superficial level...

Hey, an honest, give-and-take conversation. Nice.

These discussions can tend to get messy real quick. What I mean is, the original point a person's trying to make can get buried beneath a convoluted pile of over-explanation, tangential non-issues, and other such distraction.

That being said, I wanted to bring this back down to the basics and throw out a "for-the-record"-type statement that's as simple, honest, clear, and as free of over-explanation as I can make it.

Momoa is horrible casting because he does not look like Conan in any way. He might be tall, but he's certainly not "massive". He's not mean-looking or scary. Howard says Conan's a "pure-blooded" white man, and Momoa looks half-white/half-Polynesian. He simply doesn't look like how Howard described Conan either in terms of racial heritage, or personal appearance. The only way Momoa resembles Howard's Conan is that they're both tanned males, and that's not good enough.

BUT...

Momoa's great casting for the part of Khal Drogo in HBO's adaptation of George RR Martin's "Game of Thrones". His lean, exotic appearance, while totally wrong for Conan, is perfect for the part of Martin's eastern horselord.