Conan

[BlackLantern]

I agree with you ChickenScratch....I guess the fandom isn't as color blind as they'd like to think

 

[terry78]

I said before, when it's a white actor cast as a character that's not white, it's "well, they can capture the essence of the character, it doesn't matter." Vice versa, suddenly it's affirmative action.

 

[Ratcrawler]

I could have never imagined race would become such a huge issue even after casting a white actor, because when I look at Jason that's what I see, a tanned white guy who's pretty close to REH's physical description. With the addition of contacts, a wig and a couple months of training to look more cut.

Those paintings are cool, reminds me of my grandfather and uncles, and I'm Indian by the way.

Yeah, I was just about to say, he looks like Geronimo on steroids in that last one.

 

[green]

More underwhelming news on this film. I pretty much lost faith when Nispel was hired, Momoa isnt making things any better. Atleast I might be pleasantly suprised by the end product.

 

[ChickenScratch]

Yeah, I was just about to say, he looks like Geronimo on steroids in that last one.

I could see that too, but when I said Indian, I meant actual Indian from India. But I can see many of the interpretations having a native American feel too.

 

[BestGirl]

I said before, when it's a white actor cast as a character that's not white, it's "well, they can capture the essence of the character, it doesn't matter." Vice versa, suddenly it's affirmative action.

You must not have seen the Prince of Persia thread.

 

[C. Lee]

Attention folks.....discuss things without resorting to racial slurs and being offensive.

 

[rogue trooper]

But I do agree that Marcus Nispel is not a good sign for this movie. Only good film he's done was Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake. Rest of his movies have been bad. But if the script is good, he might just pull it off. But that's wishful thinking.

Well, with a 12th Friday The 13th movie there is only so much interesting stuff you can do that is refreshing while not alienating that fanbase.

But yeah, I do think Nispel has yet to prove if he's a layered director, as Zack Snyder and Louis Leterrier already have. With Conan, Nispel could prove he'll be like them, or a mediocre director like Paul W.S. Anderson.

My expectations for this film are right now.....I would say "healthy". I don't expect this film to be a grand, ambitious fantasy like Lord of The Rings or Nolan's Batman films. What I do hope it will be is a thrilling, fun, and engaging film like 300, Rambo, The Incredible Hulk, and Underworld. Pretty much what both Clash of The Titans and Solomon Kane seem like might be.

 

[rogue trooper]

Here he kinda' reminds me of a young Charles Bronson; which is a very brooding type of look that is very appropriate for Conan.

http://cdn.buzznet.com/media/jj1/2008/10/bonet-momoa/jason-momoa-lisa-bonet-11.jpg

 

[Nivek]

As stated, the guy has a good pre-wardrobe look.

And IMO Nispel is plenty capable. I mean, would you rather have Nispel, or Robert Rodriguez, and let's not forget Brett Ratner to direct this movie?

Personally, as long as it doesn't belong in some B.S. release purgatory like Solomon Kane, I will be happy.

 

[Garzo]

Conan is not Gaelic. I don't understand why people continue to insist that he is Gaelic. There were no Gaels or Celts alive during Howard's fantasy world of the Hyborian Age, which, according to common estimates based on Howard's timeline, put the make-believe mythical world at around 12,000 years ago, before the great geological cataclysms that sank giant land masses, ripped continents apart and created mountain ranges where none had previously existed. That's what's fun and great about Conan -- he's a make-believe, mythical figure living and battling demons and monsters "in an age undreamed of."
People who argue that Conan is somehow a Gael like Asterix doesn't understand Howard's world nor his writings. Sure, according to Howard's mythical make-believe timeline, in the 12,000 years since the death of Conan, the Cimmerian people mixed with non-Cimmerians and spread across the Hyborian continent and their descendants -- some 12,000 years later, became the Celtic people of our own time.

Yet Howard's Cimmeria is complete fantasy -- a fact Howard often pointed out -- and the only thing "Gaelic" about Conan is his name and perhaps some place names and names of some deities in the Hyborian world, which again I stress, is make-believe, fantasy -- like Middle Earth. J.R.R. Tolkien also borrowed many Nordic and Germanic names and place names for his Middle Earth, but that doesn't mean that Gondor is supposed to be Germany or Denmark.

To argue that Conan is a Gaelic hero and must be played by a "white-skinned" caucasian actor is like saying a wooly Mammoth is the same thing a modern elephant because one is obviously descendant from the other. And imagine, while Conan is set 12,000 years ago, wooly mammoths were still walking around in Alaska and Siberia some 4,000 years ago! If we talk about pre-historic Celtic culture, or proto-Celtic culture, we're talking about the Iron Age, at the most 2,000 to 3,000 years ago. Plus, Celtic culture included diverse tribes that at one time lived across Europe, from what is now Ireland and Scotland to Spain, France and all the way east to modern-day Albania, Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey
In other words, take Howard's work with grain of salt. He was a writer of ancient fantasy and it's normal that authors organize worlds they've created in notes and using parallels to our "real" world, but don't take it as sacred canon. If you want to believe that Howard's make-believe Cimmerians (themselves descendants of Atlantis!) are the ancestors of modern Scottish and Irish people, then be my guest. I can also believe that I'm a descendant of the people of Gondor, or even a native of the planet Krypton for that matter. But for the sake of argument, one has to accept that the appearance and gene pool of a people like Howard's ancient Cimmerians would have undergone dramatic changes in a span of 12,000 years before they end up modern-day Irish and Scottish folks.
And since Conan has always been described and illustrated as having dark skin and jet-black hair (most unlike most modern-day Scots and Irish), I think Momoa will make a fantastic Conan. He has a striking look and he has presence and I'm confident he'll deliver a bad-ass barbarian.

 

[Fanticon]

i always liked this dude from stargate.

 

[Nivek]

Conan is not Gaelic. I don't understand why people continue to insist that he is Gaelic. There were no Gaels or Celts alive during Howard's fantasy world of the Hyborian Age, which, according to common estimates based on Howard's timeline, put the make-believe mythical world at around 12,000 years ago, before the great geological cataclysms that sank giant land masses, ripped continents apart and created mountain ranges where none had previously existed. That's what's fun and great about Conan -- he's a make-believe, mythical figure living and battling demons and monsters "in an age undreamed of."
People who argue that Conan is somehow a Gael like Asterix doesn't understand Howard's world nor his writings. Sure, according to Howard's mythical make-believe timeline, in the 12,000 years since the death of Conan, the Cimmerian people mixed with non-Cimmerians and spread across the Hyborian continent and their descendants -- some 12,000 years later, became the Celtic people of our own time.

Yet Howard's Cimmeria is complete fantasy -- a fact Howard often pointed out -- and the only thing "Gaelic" about Conan is his name and perhaps some place names and names of some deities in the Hyborian world, which again I stress, is make-believe, fantasy -- like Middle Earth. J.R.R. Tolkien also borrowed many Nordic and Germanic names and place names for his Middle Earth, but that doesn't mean that Gondor is supposed to be Germany or Denmark.

To argue that Conan is a Gaelic hero and must be played by a "white-skinned" caucasian actor is like saying a wooly Mammoth is the same thing a modern elephant because one is obviously descendant from the other. And imagine, while Conan is set 12,000 years ago, wooly mammoths were still walking around in Alaska and Siberia some 4,000 years ago! If we talk about pre-historic Celtic culture, or proto-Celtic culture, we're talking about the Iron Age, at the most 2,000 to 3,000 years ago. Plus, Celtic culture included diverse tribes that at one time lived across Europe, from what is now Ireland and Scotland to Spain, France and all the way east to modern-day Albania, Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey
In other words, take Howard's work with grain of salt. He was a writer of ancient fantasy and it's normal that authors organize worlds they've created in notes and using parallels to our "real" world, but don't take it as sacred canon. If you want to believe that Howard's make-believe Cimmerians (themselves descendants of Atlantis!) are the ancestors of modern Scottish and Irish people, then be my guest. I can also believe that I'm a descendant of the people of Gondor, or even a native of the planet Krypton for that matter. But for the sake of argument, one has to accept that the appearance and gene pool of a people like Howard's ancient Cimmerians would have undergone dramatic changes in a span of 12,000 years before they end up modern-day Irish and Scottish folks.
And since Conan has always been described and illustrated as having dark skin and jet-black hair (most unlike most modern-day Scots and Irish), I think Momoa will make a fantastic Conan. He has a striking look and he has presence and I'm confident he'll deliver a bad-ass barbarian.

Wow, what a great, articulate, well informed post!

 

[nephron]

Conan is not Gaelic. I don't understand why people continue to insist that he is Gaelic.

"The Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans."

-The Hyborian Age, by Robert E. Howard

What part of that do you not understand?

 

[Nivek]

Oh, you got to appreciate arguments about the ethnicity of fictional characters...

 

[BlackLantern]

especially when it's a Caucasian character being portrayed by an actor who doesn't look traditionally caucasian

 

[BlackLantern]

edit DP

 

[rogue trooper]

And IMO Nispel is plenty capable. I mean, would you rather have Nispel, or Robert Rodriguez, and let's not forget Brett Ratner to direct this movie?

Definately not Ratner!! Rodriguez might have been able to pull it off, I think. With Desperado and Sin City he shows he's got the pulpy sensitivity for violence and sex which is very Conan-like. But we got Nispel, for better or for worse, who knows how to do violence and excellent cinematography. I just hope his storytelling technique will have improved after Pathfinder.

 

[nephron]

Oh, you got to appreciate arguments about the ethnicity of fictional characters...

Snarky.

I'm right though. Conan is Howard's creation, and Howard clearly states in unambiguous terms that Cimmerians are Gaels and vice versa.

Answer this question:

Would it make sense to cast anyone who wasn't black for the role of T'Challa the Black Panther? He's the fictional king of Wakanda, which is a fictional country.

 

[Nivek]

It's kind of silly that your saying stuff like "what if they cast Kingpin or Nick Fury as a black guy", when they have done that in Marvel fans and no one made that big of a fuss, and this guy looks like a freaking caucasian guy anyway. And besides, it's fiction. I was cool with the Rock playing Conan, I just don't want some buck-toothed, accent heavy, shaved 'roid Gorilla playing the part again.

 

[Nivek]

especially when it's a Caucasian character being portrayed by an actor who doesn't look traditionally caucasian

Well, as has been stated, Cimmerians have a certain look to them that made them stand out in other lands. Usually, it was described as dark sun leathered skin, piercing eyes, dark hair, and panther like physicality.

 

[nephron]

It's kind of silly that your saying stuff like "what if they cast Kingpin or Nick Fury as a black guy", when they have done that in Marvel fans and no one made that big of a fuss, and this guy looks like a freaking caucasian guy anyway. And besides, it's fiction. I was cool with the Rock playing Conan, I just don't want some buck-toothed, accent heavy, shaved 'roid Gorilla playing the part again.

Man, I'm getting tired of addressing the same arguments over and over again.

There are some characters for whom their race is a non-issue. Like Kingpin, or Nick Fury.

There are others for whom their race is intrinsic to the character and how that character fits into the world. Like Black Panther, or Shaft, or Tanto, or Conan.

And you completely dodged the question. I wasn't talking about Nick Fury or Kingpin. I asked you about the Black Panther.

I'll ask again:

Black Panther is a fictional character, a member of a fictional people, and king of a fictional country. Would it make any sense if someone who wasn't a black guy was cast as the Black Panther?

 

[C. Lee]

"The Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans."

-The Hyborian Age, by Robert E. Howard

What part of that do you not understand?

I'm the descendant of Irish/Scot ancestors.....does that make Conan a Kentuckian?

Howard says that the Gaels are descendants of Cimmerians....which makes the Gaels Cimmerian, not a Cimmerian Gaelic.

 

[BlackLantern]

would it make sense?? no....would I be as incensed about it as some people seem to be about who has been cast as Conan?? probably not

 

[Amra the Lion]

Conan is not Gaelic. I don't understand why people continue to insist that he is Gaelic. There were no Gaels or Celts alive during Howard's fantasy world of the Hyborian Age, which, according to common estimates based on Howard's timeline, put the make-believe mythical world at around 12,000 years ago, before the great geological cataclysms that sank giant land masses, ripped continents apart and created mountain ranges where none had previously existed. That's what's fun and great about Conan -- he's a make-believe, mythical figure living and battling demons and monsters "in an age undreamed of."
People who argue that Conan is somehow a Gael like Asterix doesn't understand Howard's world nor his writings. Sure, according to Howard's mythical make-believe timeline, in the 12,000 years since the death of Conan, the Cimmerian people mixed with non-Cimmerians and spread across the Hyborian continent and their descendants -- some 12,000 years later, became the Celtic people of our own time.

Yet Howard's Cimmeria is complete fantasy -- a fact Howard often pointed out -- and the only thing "Gaelic" about Conan is his name and perhaps some place names and names of some deities in the Hyborian world, which again I stress, is make-believe, fantasy -- like Middle Earth. J.R.R. Tolkien also borrowed many Nordic and Germanic names and place names for his Middle Earth, but that doesn't mean that Gondor is supposed to be Germany or Denmark.

To argue that Conan is a Gaelic hero and must be played by a "white-skinned" caucasian actor is like saying a wooly Mammoth is the same thing a modern elephant because one is obviously descendant from the other. And imagine, while Conan is set 12,000 years ago, wooly mammoths were still walking around in Alaska and Siberia some 4,000 years ago! If we talk about pre-historic Celtic culture, or proto-Celtic culture, we're talking about the Iron Age, at the most 2,000 to 3,000 years ago. Plus, Celtic culture included diverse tribes that at one time lived across Europe, from what is now Ireland and Scotland to Spain, France and all the way east to modern-day Albania, Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey
In other words, take Howard's work with grain of salt. He was a writer of ancient fantasy and it's normal that authors organize worlds they've created in notes and using parallels to our "real" world, but don't take it as sacred canon. If you want to believe that Howard's make-believe Cimmerians (themselves descendants of Atlantis!) are the ancestors of modern Scottish and Irish people, then be my guest. I can also believe that I'm a descendant of the people of Gondor, or even a native of the planet Krypton for that matter. But for the sake of argument, one has to accept that the appearance and gene pool of a people like Howard's ancient Cimmerians would have undergone dramatic changes in a span of 12,000 years before they end up modern-day Irish and Scottish folks.
And since Conan has always been described and illustrated as having dark skin and jet-black hair (most unlike most modern-day Scots and Irish), I think Momoa will make a fantastic Conan. He has a striking look and he has presence and I'm confident he'll deliver a bad-ass barbarian.

Rubbish. You think that you know, but but not really. Here, I'll help with the short versions. Ok, here we go. Robert E. Howard opens in "The Hyborian Age":

"Nothing in this article is to be considered as an attempt to advance any theory in opposition to accepted history. It is simply a fictional background for a series of fiction-stories. When I began writing the Conan stories a few years ago, I prepared this 'history' of his age and the peoples of that age, in order to lend him and his sagas a greater aspect of realness. And I found that by adhering to the 'facts' and spirit of that history, in writing the stories , it was easier to visualize (and therefore to present) him as a real flesh-and-blood character rather than a ready-made product. In writing about him and his adventures in the various kingdoms of his Age, I have never violated the 'facts' or spirit of the 'history' here set down, but have followed the lines of that history as closely as the writer of actual historical-fiction follows the lines of actual history. I have used this 'history' as a guide in all the stories in this series that I have written."

And later down at the end of it:

"They came into these countries as Aryans. But there were variations among these primitive Aryans, some of which are still recognized today, others which have long been forgotten. The blond Achaians, Gauls and Britons, for instance, were descendants of pure-blooded AEsir. The Nemedians of Irish legendry were the Nemedian AEsir. The Danes were descendants of pure-blooded Vanir; the Goths--ancestors of the other Scandinavian and Germanic tribes, including the Anglo-Saxons--were descendants of a mixed race whose elements contained Vanir, AEsir and Cimmerian strains. The Gaels, ancestors of the Irish and Highland Scotch, descended from pure-blooded Cimmerian clans. The Cymric tribes of Britain were a mixed Nordic-Cimmerian race which preceded the purely Nordic Britons into the isles, and thus gave rise to a legend of Gaelic priority. The Cimbri who fought Rome were of the same blood, as well as the Gimmerai of the Assyrians and Grecians, and Gomer of the Hebrews. Other clans of the Cimmerians adventured east of the drying inland sea, and a few centuries later mixed with Hyrkanian blood, returned westward as Scythians. The original ancestors of the Gaels gave their name to modern Crimea."

Robert E. Howard also wrote:

"If I present a character out of keeping with my impressions of the time and place, I lose my sense of reality, and my characters cease to be living and vital things; and my stories center entirely on my conceptions of my characters. Once I lose the "feel" of my characters, I might as well tear up what I have written. And once I have a definite conception of a character in my mind, it destroys the feeling of reality to have that individual act in any manner inconsistent with the character in which I have visualized him. My characters do and say illogical and inconsistent things -- inconsistent as far as general things go -- but they are consistent to my conception of them."
Robert E. Howard - The Last Celt

And you are still telling me the casting is spot on? Either you just like to talk or you don't have a clue about what you are trying to sound intelligent about. Research first.