Could a Superman 'Requel' Work?

Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by Man of Tomorrow, Feb 25, 2009.

  1. mego joe

    mego joe Well-Known Member

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    Not being around for the consequences of being in a sexual relationship is sexual irresponsiblity. The very fact that Jason was born not knowing who his father is shows that Superman was irresponsible. If he wasn't sexually irresponsible then he has nothing to be sorry for in the film. THe only reason leaving w/o a goodbye was wrong was because he and Lois were in a sexual relationship and presumably in a comitted romantic relationship as well. If you deny sexual irresponsiblity then you deny any wrongdoing on Superman's part. And the whole point of this aspect of the film is that he made a mistake. It just so happens that the mistake is one of sexual irresponsibility.
     
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  2. Nixon

    Nixon Well-Known Member

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    So, when Justice Lords Superman kept Lois locked up in a tower, under constant guard, because it was for her own good, that was okay? Or if he decided to make himself Emperor of Earth, because it'd be in the everybody's best interests, that'd be okay too then?

    After all, he intends to do good and that's what matters isn't it?

    The problem with the mindwipe kiss, despite the best of intentions, is that it treats Lois like a child or a subordinate and not an adult capable of making her own decisions. It's the superpowered equivalent of Superman saying "Don't you worry your pretty little head about that Lois dear, I'll do all the thinking for both of us." It takes the power fantasy into a weird, kinda misogynisty place too. It also denies Lois any chance at personal growth. It's just like that old story that answers the question: Why doesn't Superman just solve all our problems for us? Because then we'd stay forever a child race. In taking away her memories, Superman's not only treating Lois like a child, he's making sure that she stays one.

    And no, I don't think that's the message they were trying to send when they came up with that bit. I think they were just looking for a quick way to hit the reset button since the old turn-back-time trick had already been used. Nevertheless, the message was sent.

    Superman leaving without saying goodbye was wrong. No doubt about that But it was a mistake apologized and atoned for, not simply wiped away.

    But it wasn't movie-Superman's first mistake. When was the last time Superman didn't do something because it was too difficult you asked? When he didn't continue with his mission as Earth's protector in Superman II because the chance at a life with Lois was too difficult to resist.
     
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  3. Oddzball

    Oddzball Well-Known Member

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    Q: What did Superman's flying around and around and around the world do in the 1978 film?

    Time travel is part of the Superman mythos.
     
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  4. Nixon

    Nixon Well-Known Member

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    I'm watching Wrath of Khan right now and I can't help but wonder if people were complaining about Kirk being a deadbeat dad when we found out about his "illegitimate" kid?

    Such a good movie.

    "Of all the souls I've known, his was the most . . . . human." :csad:
     
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  5. hockeyboy89

    hockeyboy89 Well-Known Member

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    He was a deadbeat dad. Even though he agreed with Dr Marcus to stay away, he was sexually irresponsible. And they promoted him to admiral.......pffft
     
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  6. mego joe

    mego joe Well-Known Member

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    Can't comment on that, I haven't seen it.
    But there's a difference between what is really good and what is not really good for everyone, isn't there.
    It doesn't do that for me. At the time it seemed stupid, but not weird fantasy with mysogigy. No stranger than the turning back time reset. Additionally, that film came out at a much different time. WIth 21st century eyes you can't look at it the same way it came across in 1980 (81?). The world is a different place.

    To me with what's given in the scene is Lois in such a state of disrray and distress that based on her not so well written dialogue is that her knowledge of the situation is too much to take. Clark tries to convince her otherwise and only as a last resort does he use the amnesia kiss to aleviate her pain and suffering.

    Realistically, that whole interchange is something that should have taken place over months, but within the confines of a feature film, it is boiled down to the essentials in a few minutes. As for growth, she says it herself. "there is no getting over Superman." Or something like that.
    That's a great story called "Must There Be A Superman."
    No, he's only taking away the knowledge of their relationship. He's not taking away her ability to grow after this situation. He knows not to make this mistake again and he won't. He's righting a wrong, just like her death at the end of S:TM. When taken together, at the end of S:TM he chooses being human over being Kryptonian and at the end of SII he chooses his mission over a personal life. Those two films as originally intended were to show how we get the Superman we know.

    But it's also a long running theme in Superman stories that Superman will always be there to save Lois from anything. That's kind of the point. He loves her, and they know they can't be togther, but it doesn't stop him from putting her first and protecting her from harm all the time anyway.
    Well, I don't think the message they were trying to send was that Superman by erasing Lois memory was being selfish and trying to control Lois.
    There is no atonement for what's Superman's done in SR. He can never make it right. The damage is done. Period. My problem is not in how it plays out once it happens, but rather that the mistake he makes is not in keeping with his character. I think a young Superman giving up his mission for Lois would be in keeping with his character, but a Superman in a sexual relationship with Lois would never leave w/o saying goodbye b/c it's 'too difficult.' I just don't buy that. It's a completely incorrect characterization of Superman. Superman II and S:TM show Superman struggling with being Superman- and that feels right. SR shows Superman struggling to be a good person, and that is completely wrong.
    It wasn't b/c it was too difficult- he felt like it was all over for him as Superman once Lois discovered his secret. Once she knew, he couldn't continue to try and hide it from her and he didn't want to. As the mythos went at the time- it was either Superman w/o Lois or no Superman w/ Lois. He chose their relationship b/c he chose being human at the end of S:TM.

    No matter how you spin SII, SR is completely different. He knowingly hurts Lois b/c it is too difficult to say goodbye, and that is just wrong- completely out of character.
     
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  7. mego joe

    mego joe Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, but certainly you're not comparing the characterization of Capt. James T. Kirk to Superman?
     
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  8. NeoRanger

    NeoRanger Well-Known Member

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    What the deuce? Did I click on the same topic?

    *checks title*

    No, I didn't. Is this like chickenpox? Will other threads get it too, if they didn't have it already?
     
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  9. Nixon

    Nixon Well-Known Member

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    Yes there is. And mucking around with somebody's memories so they'll get over a relationship isn't what's really good.

    I mean, I know I'd never want somebody else deciding what I should and shouldn't have in my head regardless of their intentions.

    Not even Superman.


    It was still weird and overbearing, even then.

    Maybe he should've just waited a little bit. Lois is supposed to be strong, she might've surprised him with her ability to pull it together.

    Growth takes time. Healing takes time. It's a long and difficult process, but usually people emerge stronger at the end of it.

    It is.

    But he's righting a wrong in the worst possible way because it really just creates a whole other set of problems.

    What do you think Lois's response would be if she found out that Superman tampered with her mind so that she wouldn't be so upset?

    Do you honestly think she'd be happy knowing that?


    Absolutely. But he doesn't really show that by treating her mind like an etch-a-sketch does he?

    No, they were trying to hit the reset button for the next movie. Superman treating Lois like a child was the intended message, but it was a message nonetheless.


    Superman Returns shows Superman struggling to belong, to find his place in the world, not to be a good person.

    Good people make mistakes. Even Superman. They just make up for them.

    You might not think that he did because he didn't mindwipe Lois or turn back time, but he did in a very human, very real way.


    All he had to do was say, "No Lois, the world needs me too much. You understand of course."

    But he didn't. He wanted to be with Lois so much that those words were just too difficult to say.

    Just like he couldn't see Lois before he left for Krypton, because she would ask him to say and it would be too difficult for him to say no.

    Only if we assume movie-Superman is infalible. And he's so very clearly not. At least, not since he was willing to abandon the world and his Kryptonian heritage for Lois in Superman II. (In SR he's willing to abandon Lois and the world for his Kryptonian heritage. Turnabout is fairplay I guess.)
     
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  10. Nixon

    Nixon Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, sorry. This is my fault. I'll stop now.
     
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  11. Man of Tomorrow

    Man of Tomorrow Well-Known Member

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    Thread ruined!

    Close it up Showtime.
     
    #61
  12. afan

    afan Well-Known Member

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    "Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout."

    Bad comparison, Nixon, an illegitimate kid fits Jim Kirk, but not Superman.

    However, you are spot on with your eval of Wrath of Kahn. A very good film.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 26, 2009
  13. Nightwing1977

    Nightwing1977 Want to see my mask??

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    Yep. Just look at the true meaning of it here. People who say otherwise don't know a damn thing about "deadbeat dad". Some who call him that like it's a fact are just following what others said like a tool. :oldrazz:

    This is proof Supes is not a deadbeat dad, no matter how much some keep saying it is like it's a fact when the real meaning of it said Supes is not.
     
    #63
  14. Superfreak

    Superfreak Gramaton Cleric

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    my solution removes the whole issue of superman dad. Taht way it's the son he always wanted, but not really his son, and eventually a weapon to be turned against the man of steel.
     
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  15. X Knight

    X Knight Dark Knight of the Hype

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    what solution is that, Superfreak?
     
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  16. Webhead2006

    Webhead2006 The Web-Swinger

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    yea superfreak what idea was yours?
     
    #66
  17. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    :huh: You responded to his idea, he posted it on the first page of this thread.
     
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  18. Webhead2006

    Webhead2006 The Web-Swinger

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    oh sorry i totally forgot what was posted on the first page.
     
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  19. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    No need to apologize. :yay:
     
    #69
  20. Webhead2006

    Webhead2006 The Web-Swinger

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  21. Superfreak

    Superfreak Gramaton Cleric

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    I just think the secret to a 'routh' superman franchise is to divorce it from the donner franchise, in order to remove the inconsistancies, and to re-explain those things that occur in SR in a different new frame, rather than using the Donner franchise as the framing for the events in SR.

    it allows for one to:
    -redefine Lex for the prequel... who would be mentally unstable after superman overthrows his plot in the prequel, infact they could play upon the vanity issue with Lex, and actually give him hair... that would be lost thanks to Superman's actions.
    -redefine Jason as an experiment (to be revealed in an SR sequel), but still the product of a rape, but a scientific one by Lex.

    -and I'd throw in, that'd I'd redefine clark a little. In my 'solution' I'd like the story to smell like 'The Quiet American', the Micheal Caine version. With Clark like Fowler, and Lex like Pyle.



    again, I state that SR is not the greatest film in the world... but I also think it is quite salvagable. It's the frame through which SR is viewed that has the worst effect on the movie. I think by trashing the idea of vague continuity, in favor of a new 'background', would help to make SR appear a little better, although it won't be better.

    I'd prefer that they do this, than just make an SR sequel, that is divorced from SR. This makes little sense to me. Yes it solves the immediate problems, but the grander multi film arc(s) will suffer terribly.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 27, 2009
  22. AnorexicBatman

    AnorexicBatman Well-Known Member

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    Mommy! Mommy! Look what I did!
    http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=317123

    In MY opinion that is good enough for a reboot...
    Anyone agree?

    It's unfinished and I soon hope to continue...

    Oh and I stuff in a Batman cameo (Bruce Wayne in Tibet from Batman Begins)...
    Clark goes to Tibet for a story and sees Wayne being arrested ...
    There eyes meet for a moment.. the fans scream with joy... and the story continues..

    Cheezy but effective...
     
    #72
  23. BestGirl

    BestGirl Chillin' on Dragonstone

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    ^The Batman cameo would be cool if Bale's in it.
     
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  24. stargazer

    stargazer wanderer

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    It is. And I just saw it on the big screen a couple of months ago. :grin: The audience was totally into it. Pure Trek geeks, like I. :woot: Of course, we all cheered and applauded at all the right places.


    FANTASTIC POST. You are my hero. :up:

    And I find it so funny and convinient how Mego finds all type of excuses to justify Superman's mistakes in STM and SII, but he can't do the same with Superman in SR.

    IMO, the worst thing Superman ever did was to abandon the world forever just to sleep with a girl... oh, and the mind deleting stuff was just awful and very childish as well on so many levels.
     
    #74
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  25. FlawlessVictory

    FlawlessVictory Well-Known Member

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    Yup, plenty of lame scenes from S:TM, Superman 2 and SR. Which is why I want a complete break from this Donner Superman and I want something exciting onscreen that we haven't seen before from someone who bothers to open up a comic book.
     
    #75

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